Science/Environment Moving Australia to 100% Renewable Energy would actually SAVE us money.

[jim boy]

it is important to compare apples with apples

Apples? What on earth on you talking about? You've given the quite absurd statement that hydrogen is many times more dangerous than a ammonia nitrate - a substance commonly used in bomb making. If you want to compare with petrol, be my guest, it is probably on a similar level - although most studies say hydrogen is safer - as hydrogen is not poisonous, will float upwards and disperse, has a lower burning temperature and needs a lot more oxygen to explode than fossil fuels.

 

[Power Raid]

Apples? What on earth on you talking about? You've given the quite absurd statement that hydrogen is many times more dangerous than a ammonia nitrate - a substance commonly used in bomb making. If you want to compare with petrol, be my guest, it is probably on a similar level - although most studies say hydrogen is safer - as hydrogen is not poisonous, will float upwards and disperse, has a lower burning temperature and needs a lot more oxygen to explode than fossil fuels.

1) the plan for hydrogen is to be converted to ammonia so it can travel but this is not the risky bit of handing hydrogen.
2) the current uses of hydrogen are for refining
3) the future planned use of hydrogen requires significant handling in its dangerous for being liquid or gas
4) this increased dangerous form is currently a small market yet we see significant deaths each year

I like hydrogen over batteries as the E-waste will be massive for batteries but there is no way a liquid hydrogen pipeline will ever be built near populations. This means ports, storage, conversion and production facilities will need to be rethought.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

1) the plan for hydrogen is to be converted to ammonia so it can travel but this is not the risky bit of handing hydrogen.
2) the current uses of hydrogen are for refining
3) the future planned use of hydrogen requires significant handling in its dangerous for being liquid or gas
4) this increased dangerous form is currently a small market yet we see significant deaths each year

I like hydrogen over batteries as the E-waste will be massive for batteries but there is no way a liquid hydrogen pipeline will ever be built near populations. This means ports, storage, conversion and production facilities will need to be rethought.

There's a lot of good work in batteries and hydrogen that will hopefully see the environmental issues tackled soon.

On batteries, I'm pleased many options are being heavily researched, and the obsession of "one size fits all" seems to be over. Even if we still need lithium for consumer goods, replacing it potentially for industry, vehicles, and banks is a big win.

Hydrogen I'm a fan of, but the resent Hyundai announcement is a concern. Details are vague, but looks like they may be downgrading their hydrogen engine development program

 

[Power Raid]

There's a lot of good work in batteries and hydrogen that will hopefully see the environmental issues tackled soon.

On batteries, I'm pleased many options are being heavily researched, and the obsession of "one size fits all" seems to be over. Even if we still need lithium for consumer goods, replacing it potentially for industry, vehicles, and banks is a big win.

Hydrogen I'm a fan of, but the resent Hyundai announcement is a concern. Details are vague, but looks like they may be downgrading their hydrogen engine development program

The issue might be more related to the cost of hydrogen as much as hyundai itself.

FFI's internal analysis is hydrogen is currently competitive at a $5+ per litre diesel price


but I'm disappointed such a large quality manufacturer is looking elsewhere

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The issue might be more related to the cost of hydrogen as much as hyundai itself.

FFI's internal analysis is hydrogen is currently competitive at a $5+ per litre diesel price


but I'm disappointed such a large quality manufacturer is looking elsewhere

Its not quite clear yet

They have reassigned the plant, but they haven't cancelled the project.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The issue might be more related to the cost of hydrogen as much as hyundai itself.

FFI's internal analysis is hydrogen is currently competitive at a $5+ per litre diesel price


but I'm disappointed such a large quality manufacturer is looking elsewhere

I believe that the technology for running on Hydrogen is not that difficult, and many companies that have researched it may believe they have enough knowlege if it ever becomes a viable fuel.

 

[Power Raid]

I believe that the technology for running on Hydrogen is not that difficult, and many companies that have researched it may believe they have enough knowlege if it ever becomes a viable fuel.

Let’s reassess in 5 years but I’m a believer

I’m personally getting behind silicon anode development to support the hydrogen industry

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Let’s reassess in 5 years but I’m a believer

I’m personally getting behind silicon anode development to support the hydrogen industry

I saw a seminar about a working Hydrogen car ( a Holden I think ) which had been developed by a professor at one of the Universities ( Perhaps Melbourne ).
I can't remember the details, it was in the 1980s.

Really there were no problems with the car running and it was a successful project as far as demonstrating that a car could easily run on Hydrogen, with very little issues regarding pollution etc.

At the time the problems were regarding cost and storage.
Hydrogen is very difficult ( ie , energy intensive ) to liquefy and storage as a compressed gas greatly limits the range of a vehicle.
Of course , if those hurdles are ever overcome, then the right infrastructure would need to be developed to deliver it.

However:

If we had a system with huge amounts of Solar and Wind, we would have a large fluctuating electricity supply. Ideally this would be far greater capacity than the actual 24 hour electricity demand. ( Because 100% capacity would hardly ever be reached on any given day ).

When producing more electricity than required the surplus can be used for :
Pumping water uphill into Dams ( Snowy II ). ( Hydro electric when there is not enough electricity ).
Water Desalination.
Electrolytic production of Hydrogen stored in large tanks. ( Large scale Hydrogen Fuel cells when there is not enough electricity ).

Step one is to keep building renewables, and that IS happening, but its going to be a long time before we can move to step 2 which is why i think we should be planning some interim backup using fossil fuels.

 

[Pessimistic]

This makes sense

Why Toyota says buyers should think twice about electric cars

Toyota’s Australian boss wants drivers to think carefully before buying a new electric car with a massive battery, as it might not be what they really need.

www.news.com.au

 

[ChampRevesby]

This makes sense

Why Toyota says buyers should think twice about electric cars

Toyota’s Australian boss wants drivers to think carefully before buying a new electric car with a massive battery, as it might not be what they really need.

www.news.com.au

So in other words less CO2 is released combusting fossil fuels in a hybrid than it is in a power plant for the same distance traveled (if those distances are small enough).

 

[Pessimistic]

So in other words less CO2 is released combusting fossil fuels in a hybrid than it is in a power plant for the same distance traveled (if those distances are small enough).

For mine, the push should be for vehicles which have large mileage and hours worked (pollution in suburban areas) rather than the private 'convenience car'
And of course the costs make more sense too.

Make trucks electric to lift suburban curfews and ease congestion: Trucking industry

The trucking industry is pushing for a plan to make delivery vehicles electric, which it says will allow suburban noise curfews to be lifted and companies to save money.

www.theage.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So in other words less CO2 is released combusting fossil fuels in a hybrid than it is in a power plant for the same distance traveled (if those distances are small enough).

The corporation i work for is pushing for 100% renewable , so their vehicle policy doesn't recognise hybrids as an option for fleet or company cars, even though they still allow petrol cars and hybrids are a really good compromise ( as pointed out by Toyota ).

Some of the plants are doing "deals" where they purchase Green Energy or certificates.
Green Energy is a lie. The Green Energy system is set up as if electricity can be stored even when it can't be.

A company that works all night using 200kwh per night, can purchase 200kwh of "solar" energy and claim they are 100% renewable.
Its a lie. They are using the energy from the grid that is available at night. Approximately 0% Solar.
The 200kwh Solar component , generated when the sun is shining , is removed from the "actual" renewable component of the grid available during the day, so it simply makes those who don't buy green energy seem worse.

Compare big hugely profitable companies like Google or Apple with very little local energy use and so much money their electricity costs are trivial to a large Australian company like Visy.

Its easy for them to buy their fake green credentials and make the local operations look bad.
The certificates that pay for home LED replacement and energy saving phone Apps are also overstated compared to the actual energy saved by them.

Quite simply its not possible for everyone to purchase the "Green" energy.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

For mine, the push should be for vehicles which have large mileage and hours worked (pollution in suburban areas) rather than the private 'convenience car'
And of course the costs make more sense too.

Make trucks electric to lift suburban curfews and ease congestion: Trucking industry

The trucking industry is pushing for a plan to make delivery vehicles electric, which it says will allow suburban noise curfews to be lifted and companies to save money.

www.theage.com.au

There are issues, but they are being worked on.
We don't really have Curfew's in Australia, but its only a matter of time, the way the dumb bastards spread out to block multi-lane roads.
The same trucks causing congestion will be the ones screaming murder when they aren't allowed on certain roads at peak times.

All they really need to do is drive in a manner where they don't block the road.

 

[ChampRevesby]

The corporation i work for is pushing for 100% renewable , so their vehicle policy doesn't recognise hybrids as an option for fleet or company cars, even though they still allow petrol cars and hybrids are a really good compromise ( as pointed out by Toyota ).

Some of the plants are doing "deals" where they purchase Green Energy or certificates.
Green Energy is a lie. The Green Energy system is set up as if electricity can be stored even when it can't be.

A company that works all night using 200kwh per night, can purchase 200kwh of "solar" energy and claim they are 100% renewable.
Its a lie. They are using the energy from the grid that is available at night. Approximately 0% Solar.
The 200kwh Solar component , generated when the sun is shining , is removed from the "actual" renewable component of the grid available during the day, so it simply makes those who don't buy green energy seem worse.

Compare big hugely profitable companies like Google or Apple with very little local energy use and so much money their electricity costs are trivial to a large Australian company like Visy.

Its easy for them to buy their fake green credentials and make the local operations look bad.
The certificates that pay for home LED replacement and energy saving phone Apps are also overstated compared to the actual energy saved by them.

Quite simply its not possible for everyone to purchase the "Green" energy.

Creative accounting indeed. The Law of the conservation of energy is always good to have in the back of the mind when talking about these things

 

[CD Xbow]

Australia’s electricity markets are now experiencing a significant north-south divide, where state grids in the north more dependent on black coal and gas are suffering significantly higher wholesale prices than those in the south with great shares of renewables.

Australia’s north-south divide: Electricity price jumps in coal dependent states

States with a greater dependence on coal and gas are experiencing significantly higher prices than those states with higher shares of renewables.

reneweconomy.com.au

I still hear fossil fuel industry shills and conservative politicians repeatedly telling me that coal and gas is cheaper than renewables. It's also happened despite the federal liberal governments support for burning stuff that comes out of the ground and a relative lack of support for renewables. Let the market rule!

 

[Kwality]

Australia’s electricity markets are now experiencing a significant north-south divide, where state grids in the north more dependent on black coal and gas are suffering significantly higher wholesale prices than those in the south with great shares of renewables.

Australia’s north-south divide: Electricity price jumps in coal dependent states

States with a greater dependence on coal and gas are experiencing significantly higher prices than those states with higher shares of renewables.

reneweconomy.com.au

I still hear fossil fuel industry shills and conservative politicians repeatedly telling me that coal and gas is cheaper than renewables. It's also happened despite the federal liberal governments support for burning stuff that comes out of the ground and a relative lack of support for renewables. Let the market rule!

North Queensland being north for the comparison - another east coast power grid snafu ?

Pls explain why China can import coal, supplies most of our renewables hardware, & continues to build more coal power. Is there a bit more to 'cheaper' than Australia is being told?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Its just not that simple.
On a still night ,the cost of renewables is irrelevant.

On a sunny windy day, places like South Australia are already dumping their renewable energy at a bargain basement price.
The surplus is totally necessary if we want stored power to be an option.

If there is a glut of renewable, the costs are irrelevant ,they sell it for what they can get. They switch off the fossil fuel.

 

[Kwality]

Its just not that simple.
On a still night ,the cost of renewables is irrelevant.

On a sunny windy day, places like South Australia are already dumping their renewable energy at a bargain basement price.
The surplus is totally necessary if we want stored power to be an option.

If there is a glut of renewable, the costs are irrelevant ,they sell it for what they can get. They switch off the fossil fuel.

Fertiliser prices are soaring, so why is one of Australia's largest factories closing?

With global prices surging, it seemed odd timing this week for Incitec Pivot to announce plans to close its fertiliser plant in Brisbane.

www.abc.net.au

"Despite extensive efforts, [we have] been unable to secure an economically viable long-term gas supply," the company said in a statement to the ASX.

"The decision to close the Gibson Island manufacturing facility after more than 50 years of operation is expected to impact up to 170 employees."

Sayonara jobs, as we into slip into the far queue of the international supply chain. 24/7 industry requiring 24/7 power are no longer required in Australia.
As we dream of increased local steel production.

 

[CD Xbow]

North Queensland being north for the comparison - another east coast power grid snafu ?

Pls explain why China can import coal, supplies most of our renewables hardware, & continues to build more coal power. Is there a bit more to 'cheaper' than Australia is being told?

Circumstance. Oz is big, unpopulated, sunny and very suitable for both solar and wind farms. PRC is crowded, with > 50x the population and as a consequence have huge energy needs. It's not so easy for them to meet energy demands with renewables. As SaintsSeptember points out above, there is often a glut of renewable energy here, so they almost give it away. Sorting out the best energy storage solution for renewables is where we are at. Really, we shouldn't be building more solar farms unless they are linked to an energy storage option of some sort.

Unfortunately, the federal government hasn't invested enough in the grid to update it to what's required in the 21C. That's the sort of infrastructure the feds need to encourage, not funding/supporting more stupid coal fired plants. Like a true liberal I say let market forces rule.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Circumstance. Oz is big, unpopulated, sunny and very suitable for both solar and wind farms. PRC is crowded, with > 50x the population and as a consequence have huge energy needs. It's not so easy for them to meet energy demands with renewables. As SaintsSeptember points out above, there is often a glut of renewable energy here, so they almost give it away. Sorting out the best energy storage solution for renewables is where we are at. Really, we shouldn't be building more solar farms unless they are linked to an energy storage option of some sort.

Unfortunately, the federal government hasn't invested enough in the grid to update it to what's required in the 21C. That's the sort of infrastructure the feds need to encourage, not funding/supporting more stupid coal fired plants. Like a true liberal I say let market forces rule.

I think we should still be building, the fluctuation is something we need to deal with.

If we needed 100 units of power each day for the grid, then we need to build more than 200 units of solar even without storage.
On most days a solar panel will not achieve close to its capacity for 12 hours, closer to 50%.
So if you build enough to generate power for daylight hours, you will still have very sunny days when going to be generating way more than you need.

Things like water desalination plants should ONLY operate during these times.

Snowy Pumped Hydro is a pretty big infrastructure item. But once its complete we won't be able to do another.

Our sparse population compared to China can actually make main supply power more complicated. The W.A. grid is not even connected to the East Coast and long distance transmission is not efficient.

 

[CD Xbow]

I think we should still be building, the fluctuation is something we need to deal with.

If we needed 100 units of power each day for the grid, then we need to build more than 200 units of solar even without storage.
On most days a solar panel will not achieve close to its capacity for 12 hours, closer to 50%.
So if you build enough to generate power for daylight hours, you will still have very sunny days when going to be generating way more than you need.

Things like water desalination plants should ONLY operate during these times.

Snowy Pumped Hydro is a pretty big infrastructure item. But once its complete we won't be able to do another.

Our sparse population compared to China can actually make main supply power more complicated. The W.A. grid is not even connected to the East Coast and long distance transmission is not efficient.

I think your comment about WA grid supports my assertion the grid is where the feds need to lift their game. I'm afraid coal is dead in Oz, simply becoming uneconomic. Using the excess power generated by renewable in useful ways is the key, whether it's storage or conversion to a transportable form. We can become the global powerhouse of renewable energy if we wish, but it needs some vision from government.

 

[Kwality]

I think your comment about WA grid supports my assertion the grid is where the feds need to lift their game. I'm afraid coal is dead in Oz, simply becoming uneconomic. Using the excess power generated by renewable in useful ways is the key, whether it's storage or conversion to a transportable form. We can become the global powerhouse of renewable energy if we wish, but it needs some vision from government.

Its fine to look forward but we've already lost the Port Henry alumina smelter/rolling mill (2014) & the Port Gibson fertliser will follow later this year (https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...-plant-amidst-fertiliser-price-boom/100610750 ), despite saving our supply chain since that decision was made.

We need to be strengthening our own sustainability in uncertain times, strategically & economically. Having a 16/7 power grid may have finally delivered lower tariffs but its costing jobs & self security & doing nothing to encourage our own self sufficiency.

Its more about the likes of Twiggy Forrest than government, he's got his own back pocket on the line, not a pension, & his operation is well placed to develop 'in field' applications of the technology being developed*, not one committee passed to another. He will actively pursue lazy Government dollars.

*https://www.fmgl.com.au/in-the-news...g-on-display-at-resources-technology-showcase

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think your comment about WA grid supports my assertion the grid is where the feds need to lift their game. I'm afraid coal is dead in Oz, simply becoming uneconomic. Using the excess power generated by renewable in useful ways is the key, whether it's storage or conversion to a transportable form. We can become the global powerhouse of renewable energy if we wish, but it needs some vision from government.

No you're making up theoretical solutions to assert that we can be a powerhouse.

 

[CD Xbow]

No you're making up theoretical solutions to assert that we can be a powerhouse.

Interested to know why you believe we can't we become a renewable powerhouse?

We receive an average of 58 million PJ of solar radiation per year, which according to government sources is approximately 10 000 times larger than our total energy consumption. That's an awful lot of 'free' energy we have and fail to collect. Currently we collect about 1/100,000 of it.

Let those market forces turn us into a renewable powerhouse.

Note Australia and Africa are exposed to about the same amount of solar radiation per year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08...check-is-australia-sunniest-continent/6659316

We also have a fair bit of wind, space and holes in the ground.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Interested to know why you believe we can't we become a renewable powerhouse?

We receive an average of 58 million PJ of solar radiation per year, which according to government sources is approximately 10 000 times larger than our total energy consumption. That's an awful lot of 'free' energy we have and fail to collect. Currently we collect about 1/100,000 of it.

Let those market forces turn us into a renewable powerhouse.

Note Australia and Africa are exposed to about the same amount of solar radiation per year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08...check-is-australia-sunniest-continent/6659316

We also have a fair bit of wind, space and holes in the ground.

Because Electricity is not mobile? The further you try to move it, the more you lose.
Do you even have a theory for it to be or are you relying on "those smart guys" to find a physics defying solution?

You can't just throw it in a bucket, put a lid on it and ship it to China.

Its not the sunlight that would make us "a powerhouse" its knowledge.
As of right now we buy our technology. Wind , Solar , Cables, all of it.