Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

Mags98

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Lol, what?

Black Book of Communism would put the figure at about 94 million for the twentieth century, and there's arguments that the figure is too big (although Communism would still sit at killing tens of millions of people.) " Upwards of 200 million killed by just Mao and Stalin" is absurd.

On the other end of the spectrum seven million by Hitler just counts the Holocaust. The number is quite a bit bigger when you include genocide against other groups such as the Romani or Slavs and purges of other "undesirables." Holocaust Museum on their FAQ page also seven million Soviet citizens, three million Soviet prisoners of war, 1.8 million non-Jewish Polish civilians, between 250,000-500,000 Roma, and 250,000 people with physical and mental disabilities. It's also worth noting Hitler was stopped in his tracks, while Stalin and Mao got to carry out their visions. If Hitler actually got to keep Eastern Europe and carry out his plans for a Lebensruam maybe he would have hit that hundred million single-handedly.

its more than arguments, the black book of communism is entirely discredited, even a co-editor calls it out lmao we should be thankful every day for the Red Armys efforts in defeating the fascists
 
You can see the war plans for the allies against the USSR if you look deep enough. They were terrified that they would need to go to war against Stalin that they actually did for almost the rest of that century.

The Russians were also getting rid of the Jews and agreed to split up Poland, they were an ally of convenience when Hitler decided to invade them.

The person we should be thanking is the doctor who gave Hitler meth such that he was paranoid and opened the Eastern Front.
 
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Yeah it’s a funny one isn’t it. There’s a lot of Perth weirdos who think it’s chaos over here when it’s anything but that.
Not surprising given the media focus. Reading the ABC online a couple of days ago and there were 28 covid-related articles and only 10 non-covid related (and half of those were on the Ashes). 6 people had died that day in NSW from covid and people in ICU had dropped from 54 to 51. That's 6 people of the usual 150 odd that die each day in NSW from all manner of things. Ahhh the media - always casting blame at multiple someones, never takes any responsibility for their role in anything.

My vaxxed Sydney friends are just living normally but using a mask when out and about. Most of their friends have had it or currently are positive for covid but they don't know anyone who's ended up in hospital because of it. It's apparently not the apocalypse the media presents NSW out to be.
 

Purple_Turtle

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its more than arguments, the black book of communism is entirely discredited, even a co-editor calls it out lmao we should be thankful every day for the Red Armys efforts in defeating the fascists

I'd be a lot more grateful to the Red Army if the Soviet Union didn't facilitate the Nazi's through the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and subject large parts of Europe to authoritarian communist governments in 1945.

Curtois' number might be disputed (even by the writers in the book he edited) but communism still killed tens of millions of people across the twentieth century. It genuinely deserves to be in the same category as fascism of ideologies decent people condemn.
 

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I'd be a lot more grateful to the Red Army if the Soviet Union didn't facilitate the Nazi's through the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and subject large parts of Europe to authoritarian communist governments in 1945.

Curtois' number might be disputed (even by the writers in the book he edited) but communism still killed tens of millions of people across the twentieth century. It genuinely deserves to be in the same category as fascism of ideologies decent people condemn.

Its far more complex than that when it comes to deal making.

The Cold War pretty much started in Greece when Churchill sent in British troops after the Germans had left to kill off the popular and successful, mostly leftist Greek resistance movement that already had 4/5ths of the country under control.

Everywhere else in Europe, Nazi collaborators were put to trial and sentenced (death or imprisonment) but in Greece the British released them from prison armed them and incorportated them into the National Army and used them to beat of the resistance movement, formenting a 3-4 year civil war, and finally crushing them with the help of the Americans and the use of napalm in the Greek mountains.

Churchill wanted his path through to the Suez canal and carved up the balkans with Stalin with the so-called "percentages agreement" with Stalin (without the presence of the Roosevelt) having the English take over Greece and giving Russia control of Bulgaria and Romania.

The Soviet Red Army had pretty much done the bulk of the fighting against the Nazis in terms of territory gain in Eastern Europe, and it was only Churchill that wanted the allies to open up a front against the Nazis through the Greece to protect British interests in the middle east.

"Democracy" for a country like Greece was no better than what happened in the rest of eastern Europe. 40 years of right wing military dictatorships propping up an unpopular imported monarchy - like the half wit cousin of Prince Philip, and the remnants of those Nazis collaborators are still active as the ultra right wing Golden Dawn party.
 
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Mags98

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I'd be a lot more grateful to the Red Army if the Soviet Union didn't facilitate the Nazi's through the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and subject large parts of Europe to authoritarian communist governments in 1945.

Curtois' number might be disputed (even by the writers in the book he edited) but communism still killed tens of millions of people across the twentieth century. It genuinely deserves to be in the same category as fascism of ideologies decent people condemn.
unlike the rest of europe which certainly didnt genuinely admire hitler and appeased him before supporting nazis post war lol

strange how we can apply a kill count to communism but dont do the same to capitalism? deaths in india alone would dwarf any overestimates by anti communists

anyway cant blame you when your brains been rattled by decades of anti communist media consumption
 
unlike the rest of europe which certainly didnt genuinely admire hitler and appeased him before supporting nazis post war lol

strange how we can apply a kill count to communism but dont do the same to capitalism? deaths in india alone would dwarf any overestimates by anti communists

anyway cant blame you when your brains been rattled by decades of anti communist media consumption
What metric would you use to allocate a death to the free market exchange of goods and services between individuals when compared to the actions of the state resulting in deaths?

There's been billions raised out of poverty due to "capitalism".

The simple way to look at it is that in order to change an economic system, to redistribute resources, they have to first take them from people and those people tend to not want to give it up. Step one, start propagating the idea that wanting that which others have is noble and not selfish while also suggesting that those who wish to keep what is theirs are both selfish and immoral. Step two, use the power of the state to remove it while pretending that all power of the state isn't at the end of a gun or threat of violence. Step three, act surprised when your threats of violence or pointing of guns results in death. Step four, take everything from the dead.
 
Regarding covid-19.

I believe we just crossed into 1,000,000 cases total since this started here in Australia. Over half of those are currently active (over 620,000 in the last two weeks going off the data on google).

How many dead should we expect for this to be a disaster? How many deaths are considered low enough to get on with regular life?

The data on google only runs to the 9th of January so let's assume the 7 day average for deaths of 16 carries true all the way back, 32 for two weeks but then let's times that by ten just to run it off the scale and allow for plenty of margin for those who feel the tsunami is just around the corner.

320 deaths out of 620,000 cases is 0.05%

A week ago 74% of ICU cases were delta variant.

That would put omicron, even with the 10x factor applied, at roughly 0.013%
 

Purple_Turtle

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unlike the rest of europe which certainly didnt genuinely admire hitler and appeased him before supporting nazis post war lol

strange how we can apply a kill count to communism but dont do the same to capitalism? deaths in india alone would dwarf any overestimates by anti communists

anyway cant blame you when your brains been rattled by decades of anti communist media consumption

Good sign that any criticism of communism whenever it was applied in practice can't be defended on its own merits and instead its defenders have to constantly resort to whataboutism.

Also of note the appeasers of Hitler like Chamberlain went to war with him in 1939, and used the appeasement period to prepare themselves for the conflict. As unkind as history is to Chamberlain he genuinely believed going to war with Hitler in 1938 would have seen Britain destroyed and that he did everything he could to ensure that when war eventually broke out the British were in the best possible position to fight it. It's a completely different kettle of fish to the Soviets carving up Poland with the Nazis while providing them with the raw resources needed to fight the conflict.
 

Mags98

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Good sign that any criticism of communism whenever it was applied in practice can't be defended on its own merits and instead its defenders have to constantly resort to whataboutism.

Also of note the appeasers of Hitler like Chamberlain went to war with him in 1939, and used the appeasement period to prepare themselves for the conflict. As unkind as history is to Chamberlain he genuinely believed going to war with Hitler in 1938 would have seen Britain destroyed and that he did everything he could to ensure that when war eventually broke out the British were in the best possible position to fight it. It's a completely different kettle of fish to the Soviets carving up Poland with the Nazis while providing them with the raw resources needed to fight the conflict.
right forget that comparisons are actually a faux pas my mistake

and you dont think the Soviets figured they would get rolled as had the rest of europe up to that point? theyd just come out a civil war plus some purging of high ranked generals. it was always germanys plan to take the east and the communist throughout europe were already well aware what facsists were capable of.
at the end of the day tens of millions of Soviets were killed by the Nazis and you try to line them up as one the same? just crazy talk
 

Clems Knee

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Good sign that any criticism of communism whenever it was applied in practice can't be defended on its own merits and instead its defenders have to constantly resort to whataboutism.

Also of note the appeasers of Hitler like Chamberlain went to war with him in 1939, and used the appeasement period to prepare themselves for the conflict. As unkind as history is to Chamberlain he genuinely believed going to war with Hitler in 1938 would have seen Britain destroyed and that he did everything he could to ensure that when war eventually broke out the British were in the best possible position to fight it. It's a completely different kettle of fish to the Soviets carving up Poland with the Nazis while providing them with the raw resources needed to fight the conflict.

This conversation began as whataboutism to deflect from the brutality of the Nazis.

Both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were involved in geopolitical expansion, and were led by a demagogue, both suppressed political opposition violently, and both controlled the media rigidly.
 

Mags98

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This conversation began as whataboutism to deflect from the brutality of the Nazis.

Both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were involved in geopolitical expansion, and were led by a demagogue, both suppressed political opposition violently, and both controlled the media rigidly.
when the united states is knocking at your door and conducting regime change around the world i would do the same
 
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Regarding covid-19.

I believe we just crossed into 1,000,000 cases total since this started here in Australia. Over half of those are currently active (over 620,000 in the last two weeks going off the data on google).

How many dead should we expect for this to be a disaster? How many deaths are considered low enough to get on with regular life?

The data on google only runs to the 9th of January so let's assume the 7 day average for deaths of 16 carries true all the way back, 32 for two weeks but then let's times that by ten just to run it off the scale and allow for plenty of margin for those who feel the tsunami is just around the corner.

320 deaths out of 620,000 cases is 0.05%

A week ago 74% of ICU cases were delta variant.

That would put omicron, even with the 10x factor applied, at roughly 0.013%
The only problem with that is deaths have a one to three week delay on cases presenting.
So you can only really know the death rate in two to three weeks.
 
The only problem with that is deaths have a one to three week delay on cases presenting.
So you can only really know the death rate in two to three weeks.
Correct, that dataset is from 26th Dec to 9th of Jan - so the window starts in under a week. That's why I timed the average deaths in that period by ten.
 
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The only problem with that is deaths have a one to three week delay on cases presenting.
So you can only really know the death rate in two to three weeks.
Not any more; the statistical relationship between cases and death seen with delta and previous variants is not being found with omicron


And in the US (which includes London and SA): https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ron-comparison-cases-deaths-hospitalizations/
 

JBMAN

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Not any more; the statistical relationship between cases and death seen with delta and previous variants is not being found with omicron


And in the US (which includes London and SA): https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ron-comparison-cases-deaths-hospitalizations/

I watch the reports from overseas and especially Dr John Campbell who explains the graphs etc so well. It is becoming clear that Omicron is far more contagious but also far less lethal. From these reports we should reach our peak by the end of this month and start to see a fairly rapid recovery mid to late Feb. The indications are that this is a good chance to get to endemic from pandemic. WA should be well placed to handle Omicron when it gets here, not saying there won't be some difficult times, there will be but there is now a light at the end of the tunnel. I just wish the media would concentrate a bit more on the much lower death rate and hospitalisations instead of scaring people with the numbers.
 
It doesn't work with the narrative to highlight that Australia has reached the million case milestone, because most of them are from the last three weeks and we haven't seen bulk deaths.

When I ran the numbers, in order to reach the 2% case fatality rate that governments were quoting, we need 815 deaths a day for the next three weeks.

NSW, with a bulk of the current active cases hasn't had that number of deaths total.

Big numbers are useful and scary, until they aren't, then they disappear.
 
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It doesn't work with the narrative to highlight that Australia has reached the million case milestone, because most of them are from the last three weeks and we haven't seen bulk deaths.

When I ran the numbers, in order to reach the 2% case fatality rate that governments were quoting, we need 815 deaths a day for the next three weeks.

NSW, with a bulk of the current active cases hasn't had that number of deaths total.

Big numbers are useful and scary, until they aren't, then they disappear.
The biggest factor reducing the death rate is the Vaccination rate, yes Omicron is less deadly, but the case numbers have passed the level the states can put out accurate data. ICU numbers are made up largely of the unvaccinated and elderly. Unvaccinated people are making up a ridiculous percentage of ICU patients for such a tiny percentage of the population.
 

JBMAN

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The biggest factor reducing the death rate is the Vaccination rate, yes Omicron is less deadly, but the case numbers have passed the level the states can put out accurate data. ICU numbers are made up largely of the unvaccinated and elderly. Unvaccinated people are making up a ridiculous percentage of ICU patients for such a tiny percentage of the population.
Yes absolutely I forgot to mention the vaccinations. Not sure why the anti vaxers don't relate to the facts re vaccinated v unvaccinated in hospital, ICU and deaths. The statistics don't lie.
 
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