Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[B4Bear]

It reads like real conspiracy theory whack job type stuff. If that’s official they’ve lost the plot.

This is pretty much what I said in regards to recreating the USSR under a different banner. My own biases say it is real.

However, some will never believe what is put before them due to their own biases.

But as the death toll climbs and Ukraine is literally dismantled before our eyes you have to ask yourself to what end? The destruction of Ukraine as an independent entity is the obvious goal. One where it is subservient to Moscow with no independent thought or action.

 

[Tectonic]

Is that real? How do you know if it’s real?

Ukraine crisis: Russian news agency deletes victory editorial

Piece which prematurely claimed "Ukraine has returned to Russia" is still visible to internet users.

www.bbc.com

 

[Val Keating]

Talking about a new world order is very on the nose. They’d know that.

 

[Val Keating]

I know it seems pretty trivial in the scheme of things but the conflict has already pushed petrol prices up, the sanctions work both ways.

 

[Del191229]

He “genuinely thought” that the US would recognise they had a mutual enemy? Wow, I thought it was remarkable that this thread had one participant with access to Putin’s inner thoughts, when it turns out there’s actually two! How lucky are we!

Also, I’ve clearly missed the part of the ICJ’s ruling 10-4 in favour for the legitimacy of Kosovo’s declaration where they cover off on this litany of broken international laws you refer to. Mind throwing me a link?

Pretty big talk for a ******* who can't Google and obviously has a child's understanding of IR:

The impact of September 11 on US-Russian relations | Brookings

The demise of their post 9/11 U.S.-Russian partnership shows that Moscow and Washington work together best when they have a clear, limited goal involving similar interests, Angela Stent writes.

www.brookings.edu

The period immediately after 9/11 was in retrospect the high point in U.S.-Russian relations in the three decades since the Soviet collapse. U.S.-Russian cooperation in the initial stages of the Afghan war appeared to be transformative, and Moscow likened the anti-terror cooperation to the anti-Hitler coalition in World War II. The common enemy was Islamic fundamentalism and together the two great powers would defeat it.

 

[B4Bear]

Talking about a new world order is very on the nose. They’d know that.

The point is they do not think of it as a new world order.

It is re-establishing the old world order. The USSR was considered a great power. Russia is just a large piece of land with Nukes. Tiny economy, no industrial base and a chip on their shoulder.

It is only through historical inertia that they are in the G7 and still have permanent veto in the UN.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

It reads like real conspiracy theory whack job type stuff. If that’s official they’ve lost the plot.

I posted about it a few pages back:

So this is an article published by RIA Novosti (Russian State media outlet) over the weekend before quickly being pulled. Tells us everything we need to know about Russian intentions in Ukraine and beyond, and how it views Europe and the west as ungrateful anglo-saxons whose European project only came about thanks to the greatness of Russia in the first place.

The new world order - The Frontier Post

Petr Akopov A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia’s military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era – and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – …

thefrontierpost.com

Its ******* cuckoo land, batshit crazy hyper-nationalistic, overtly racist propaganda. This is what the Russian state is trying to peddle to its people, and what they have been exporting to the west to sow division amongst its allies. This regime needs to be brought to its knees and shot in the back of the head, and its people freed from this bullshit once and for all.

Either it is an excellent plant from the West or batshit crazy propaganda by Putin cronies.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

Pretty big talk for a ******* who can't Google and obviously has a child's understanding of IR:

The impact of September 11 on US-Russian relations | Brookings

The demise of their post 9/11 U.S.-Russian partnership shows that Moscow and Washington work together best when they have a clear, limited goal involving similar interests, Angela Stent writes.

www.brookings.edu

I think its pretty clear the US never wanted Russia in NATO. It's far better for their military industrial complex and imperialist ambitions to have a potential bogey man than a supposed ally with massive military might that has a distinctly different way of looking at things.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Pretty big talk for a ******* who can't Google and obviously has a child's understanding of IR:

The impact of September 11 on US-Russian relations | Brookings

The demise of their post 9/11 U.S.-Russian partnership shows that Moscow and Washington work together best when they have a clear, limited goal involving similar interests, Angela Stent writes.

www.brookings.edu

Spare me the ad hominem and answer my question.

You said Putin had been warning the west that it broke international law in supporting Kosovo's independence, and you implied there was truth to his criticisms.

I'm saying the ICJ's advisory opinion discredits these criticisms and I want to know why you're misrepresenting that.

 

[Del191229]

Yep, there's a lot of truth in this.

We also need to remember that there's a ton of people from other western countries who live in Ukraine, or have family there. Canadians, Americans, British, Swedish, the list is endless. We've so far got 2 Bigfooty posters with family there. There's a commonality there and it's nothing to do with skin colour. Ordinary citizens from many countries are leaving their homes to go to Ukraine and help fight. Because they have friends or family there, or they used to live there or were born there.

There's also a commonality on an energetic level. The world is watching an ordinary guy - an ex-actor and comedian, with no previous political or military experience - stand up to a bullying megalomaniac, who's successfully had the western world tiptoe around him for two decades until now. We're watching a guy who wore a pink satin jumpsuit and won the Ukrainian version of Dancing with the Stars leading an army made up in part of ordinary citizens who, like him, have never fired a gun before, and are now defending their country with all manner of weapons - literally whatever they can improvise in the moment is being created and used by thousands of volunteer citizens - against a global superpower threatening to slaughter them all and take over their home, unprovoked. That alone is worthy of global attention, regardless of skin colour or geopolitical ramifications.

The world is tired. We've just been through a pandemic, that frankly has served to divide us more than unite us. It's no wonder people right now want to suddenly climb aboard the "I Stand For Ukraine" train. What's happening in that country right now is nothing short of remarkable, and inspirational. And it reminds us of what we are all capable of, if we just have courage and unity.

The things that oppress us in this world have to be released. The days of dominance and control need to be over. Putin is a relic. A mad relic, and he's done. He's become his own weakest link. His madness has no place going forward in our world.

Zelensky - I really hope he makes it out of this alive. I fear for him. But the world will be changed because of him either way. And he's basically just an ordinary guy. Who can dance REALLY well. I mean, think about it - he's like the anti-Trump. In so many ways. And he's uniting much of the world right now. In hope.

Anyways, Slava Ukraini. And prayers that the casualties on both sides are not huge, and we see an end to this soon.

You don't speak for the world. And you're wrong on the race element.

This is white people fighting over bits of land they've been fighting over for hundreds of years.

White savages.

They are ‘civilised’, ‘European’ and ‘look like us’: the racist coverage of Ukraine | Moustafa Bayoumi

Are Ukrainians more deserving of sympathy than Afghans and Iraqis? Many seem to think so

www.theguardian.com

 

[Del191229]

I think its pretty clear the US never wanted Russia in NATO. It's far better for their military industrial complex and imperialist ambitions to have a potential bogey man than a supposed ally with massive military might that has a distinctly different way of looking at things.

PRECISELY.

So if the West needs conflict and war to maintain its economy ...

Noting some of us were actually covering the expansion east in the 00s and heard very smart very non Russian friendly types warn again and again it was dumb and dangerous move that would inevitably lead us here.

 

[Val Keating]

None of that matters now SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and they should be able to be allied with whoever the **** they like. Putin is in the wrong here. What he’s doing is a war crime, that’s all that matters now.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

PRECISELY.

So if the West needs conflict and war to maintain its economy ...

Noting some of us were actually covering the expansion east in the 00s and heard very smart very non Russian friendly types warn again and again it was dumb and dangerous move that would inevitably lead us here.

At the same time though I wouldn't put it past Putin to have made noises about joining NATO whilst knowing that there is no way the US would allow it. This then would give him a basis from which to push a new Russia agenda which included expanding its sphere of control into Belarus and Ukraine as a rebuke to the west and its refusal to engage with Russia as an equal partner. Its all quite an intriguing chess game looking at it from a distance and back over time.

 

[B4Bear]

At the same time though I wouldn't put it past Putin to have made noises about joining NATO whilst knowing that there is no way the US would allow it. This then would give him a basis from which to push a new Russia agenda which included expanding its sphere of control into Belarus and Ukraine as a rebuke to the west and its refusal to engage with Russia as an equal partner. Its all quite an intriguing chess game looking at it from a distance and back over time.

And just maybe the simplest explanation is that an old man with an inferiority complex and a chip on his shoulder, and backed with nukes has dreams of restoring what he thinks was unfairly lost. And so embarks on an expansion via conquest.

After all it is not like there is not historical precedent.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

And just maybe the simplest explanation is that an old man with an inferiority complex and a chip on his shoulder, and backed with nukes has dreams of restoring what he thinks was unfairly lost. And so embarks on an expansion via conquest.

After all it is not like there is not historical precedent.

In a nutshell, maybe. But this has been coming for 20+ years so a lot has happened to come to this point. Its interesting to look back with the current situation as context.

 

[Del191229]

None of that matters now SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

Ukraine is a sovereign nation and they should be able to be allied with whoever the fu** they like. Putin is in the wrong here. What he’s doing is a war crime, that’s all that matters now.

Nah man, you can't just pick moments in history and declare this is all that counts now.

It just doesn't work like that.

Australia routinely violates the sovereign rights of other nations.

Australian aircraft flew close air support for ISIS as they tried to break the siege of Deir Ezzor in Syria.

When Putin went to the aid of sovereign Syria to fight Al Qaeda the West attacked him and backed the people who killed 3000 New Yorkers on 9/11.

Its a stinking nasty hypocritical world, simply taking one moment and declaring that to be all that counts is like going "North kicked the opening goals in Rd1 2021, thus they are premiers."

 

[Del191229]

And just maybe the simplest explanation is that an old man with an inferiority complex and a chip on his shoulder, and backed with nukes has dreams of restoring what he thinks was unfairly lost. And so embarks on an expansion via conquest.

After all it is not like there is not historical precedent.

Yes, and the Arabs attacked FREEDOM because they are savages who can't handle democracy.

 

[B4Bear]

Nah man, you can't just pick moments in history and declare this is all that counts now.

It just doesn't work like that.

Australia routinely violates the sovereign rights of other nations.

Australian aircraft flew close air support for ISIS as they tried to break the siege of Deir Ezzor in Syria.

When Putin went to the aid of sovereign Syria to fight Al Qaeda the West attacked him and backed the people who killed 3000 New Yorkers on 9/11.

Its a stinking nasty hypocritical world, simply taking one moment and declaring that to be all that counts is like going "North kicked the opening goals in Rd1 2021, thus they are premiers."

So by your account, because we are all hypocrites there can be no line in the sand for contemporary events.

Sounds like Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians really.

 

[B4Bear]

Yes, and the Arabs attacked FREEDOM because they are savages who can't handle democracy.

Who is talking about Arabs, except you? What has that got to do with the current murders of Ukrainians that is occurring right at this moment?

 

[Mav]

Interesting discussion (although a little too personal at times) and has certainly opened my eyes.

Quick Summary:
This has been brewing for some time.
It's ****ed up.
There are other places in the world that are ****ed up that we should care just as much about.
No one has the answer.

If a Nuclear War breaks out the day after we win a preliminary final I'm going to be rightly pissed.

 

[Val Keating]

Nah man, you can't just pick moments in history and declare this is all that counts now.

It just doesn't work like that.

Australia routinely violates the sovereign rights of other nations.

Australian aircraft flew close air support for ISIS as they tried to break the siege of Deir Ezzor in Syria.

When Putin went to the aid of sovereign Syria to fight Al Qaeda the West attacked him and backed the people who killed 3000 New Yorkers on 9/11.

Its a stinking nasty hypocritical world, simply taking one moment and declaring that to be all that counts is like going "North kicked the opening goals in Rd1 2021, thus they are premiers."

I’ve decided I’m not getting bogged down with whataboutisim because it does nothing but muddy the waters.

Just got to keep it simple. What Russia is doing to Ukraine right now is disgraceful and I think it’s going to get worse. That’s not excusing all those other things but it plays into Russia’s hands for people to get sidetracked.

Russia is invading, with plans to occupy and take control of a sovereign nation. They have killed civilians. It’s an unprovoked attack, yes I know the nato situation, but again that’s their choice as a sovereign nation, doesn’t matter if it’s wise or not.

Bottom line is Russia is attacking Ukraine after months of promising it wouldn’t (still can’t get over the fact they waited for the Olympics to finish because they’re scared of China). Who knows how many people will be killed when this is done. It could be another Holodomor.

 

[Val Keating]

Who is talking about Arabs, except you? What has that got to do with the current murders of Ukrainians that is occurring right at this moment?

All over Twitter there’s Arabic people posting about it. It’s pretty annoying. Do they think they have a monopoly on suffering? Ukraine has suffered extreme hardship from Russia for over a hundred years.

 

[Del191229]

So by your account, because we are all hypocrites there can be no line in the sand for contemporary events.

Sounds like Israel and their treatment of the Palestinians really.

There most certainly should be a line in the sand, but it must be applied equally.

That you raise the Palestinians is telling.

Turns out cultural boycotts of countries for illegal armed occupations are OK when it is nice white attractive Ukrainians in the crosshairs, but not OK when it is brown skinned Palestinians.

Until this stuff is applied equally, well, right now what is happening is just continuation of ethnic/political conflict that's been underway in that part of the world for decades imo.

 

[Del191229]

Who is talking about Arabs, except you? What has that got to do with the current murders of Ukrainians that is occurring right at this moment?

You're using the same bullshit arguments as post 9/11.

Putin is some madman bent on power.

It is children's thinking.

 

[Del191229]

I’ve decided I’m not getting bogged down with whataboutisim because it does nothing but muddy the waters.

Just got to keep it simple. What Russia is doing to Ukraine right now is disgraceful and I think it’s going to get worse. That’s not excusing all those other things but it plays into Russia’s hands for people to get sidetracked.

Russia is invading, with plans to occupy and take control of a sovereign nation. They have killed civilians. It’s an unprovoked attack, yes I know the nato situation, but again that’s their choice as a sovereign nation, doesn’t matter if it’s wise or not.

Bottom line is Russia is attacking Ukraine after months of promising it wouldn’t (still can’t get over the fact they waited for the Olympics to finish because they’re scared of China). Who knows how many people will be killed when this is done. It could be another Holodomor.

Whataboutism is a term invented by British intelligence to stop people actually placing IRA resistance in context and just go "Oh, bombs are bad."

You can't keep this stuff simple. There is no simple answer.

That you've mentioned the Holodomor demonstrates this - even when you're trying to keep it simple, you can't help but go back the best part of a century and the actions of a state that no longer exists.