Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

So was the current president part of this conspiracy? Or are we using historical grievances as justification for any nation state action?

Joe Biden gets mentioned in that phone call. You didn't listen to it did you...

 

[ferball]

2013? Almost 10 years ago.

I'm an Australian. I don't have any right to criticise other countries pulling dodgy shit after what was done in my name in 2003.

 

[joegreen]

Its always been the way. That saying (Nothing is true, everything is permissible) was attributed to Hassan i Sabbah, the legendary founder of the order of Assassins about 1000 years ago.

It was a good article. But ... contrasting it with Mearscheimer's view when it is both things playing a part most likely. Maybe Putin would have invaded Ukraine eventually anyway. But I dunno if that is a fair assessment. This situation has devolved over more than a decade. Without the pressure ofof Ukraine having a relationship with Nato why would he bother invading the place? He and Ukraine have the infrastructure and assets to work together to sell energy from one end of Eurasia to the other. You can't assess the world properly without taking into account all the circumstances in any situation.

Its certainly true that successful Russian leaders tend to be autocratic, tough people. But Putin also makes speeches and has for years and always had a particular economic vision for Russia that involved a strong welfare state funded by energy concerns, eventually forming a challenge nto US dollar hegemony. He has talked about it for years and built towards it until 2014 when it started going pear shaped. I dunno if his speeches are still on youtube but heaps of them were a months ago. Its clear he wanted to do more thn just invade Ukraine or rebuild the Soviet Union. He wanted to build something else. He did have a vision for what he wanted that wasn't just be a strongman. I think he wanted to leave a historical legacy where he left Russia as a strong modern nation that was economically powerful first.

Its just buying into stupid propaganda to ignore that, cos he said it regularly in public speeches.

I'm not endorsing him either. He's a campaigner who has murdered his own people, journalists and rose to power on the sort of far right nationalism he's now whinging about. But he's like Gadaffi. Who also had a vision and turned his country from a backwater to a viable, modern nation till he got regime changed. One of the nations that formed Nato was a repressive dictatorship. But on balance that dictator did okay given their countries circumstances. Alot of these dictators aren't just *******s. They often try to build useful things with their power. Its part of nationalism, or pan africanism in Gadaffi's case.

Where this goes now who knows. Putin is probably happy to walk away with a buffer zone in Eastern Ukraine, maybe from the border to the river, and control of all their energy resources in the East and South. In 5 or 10 years he may be gone but he'll know Russia will have control of those resources forever now. Before the US really started meddling in this Ukraine did.

Why invade otherwise? Well because Russia's gotta do what Russia's gotta do. That's his point isn't it? It's who they are and who the despot becomes. It's their culture, a strong part of it (not all of it, many good things too) but from time to time, that war like, empire building part becomes the dominate controlling decision making construct. In a manner of speaking I believe he is saying Putin is living up to the expectations of those rulers before him.

As said it resonates with me. While not dismissing other factors, I sense regardless despots are going to despot... the manner, timing, scale, location may change, but death and destruction were inevitable when someone goes unchecked.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Putin is absolutely corrupted.

Any excuse would do I fear.

I don't believe Putin is crazy, he is a calculated, cold blooded killer. Who was always going to pull the trigger, he was just waiting for the right time.

But the article makes all these points far better than I have.

 

[Eggs11]

Its not about rights.

Nothing gives anyone the right to commit mass murder.

I've probably said in this thread, pre invasion, ages ago that Russia under Putin is like a combination of State backed Mafia and state backed energy concern. On what planet are they gonna behave like decent people? Not this one. Powers like China, the US and Russia don't give a fu** about peoples rights. They try to do what they want cos no one is able to stop them.

You can whinge all you like about it but the West, especially the English speaking, NATO leading West is morally bankrupt on this. Who are we criticising anyone else's mass murder?

"Oh now .... this invasion is bad

.... cos we didn't do it."

Julian Assange, good North man, had his life ruined because he exposed the US committing mass murder. Why is there such selective outrage here about Putin?

Everything after your second sentence is irrelevant.

 

[Val Keating]

I'm an Australian. I don't have any right to criticise other countries pulling dodgy sh*t after what was done in my name in 2003.

Of course you do. Every country has blood on their hands. So what, because you’re Australian you get to say “oh well, that’s just the way it is”? Nah mate that’s too easy.

 

[ferball]

Everything after your second sentence is irrelevant.

So when we send john Howard to trial for war crimes and the individuals and command responsible for the crimes in Afghanistan then we might have the right to criticise someone else for doing the same thing. Till then we're full of shit.

 

[ferball]

Of course you do. Every country has blood on their hands. So what, because you’re Australian you get to say “oh well, that’s just the way it is”? Nah mate that’s too easy.

Its not too easy. We've done nothing about john Howard who was part of the illegal invasion of Iraq. So talking shit aout other leaders is just talking shit.

 

[Val Keating]

Reckon Poland is getting nervous with Russian military being close to their boarder.

 

[Val Keating]

Its not too easy. We've done nothing about john Howard who was part of the illegal invasion of Iraq. So talking sh*t aout other leaders is just talking sh*t.

Again with the diversions. If you don’t want to participate in talking shit about other countries, why on earth are you posting in the devils chessboard thread?

 

[ferball]

Why are we pretending Putin has done something bad if we're not prepared to prosecute our own leaders for doing the same thing?

Fact is Putin would never have invaded Ukraine in the first place without all the US interference in Ukrainian politics this century.

Its still a shit act, but it would never have happened otherwise.

 

[Val Keating]

Why are we pretending Putin has done something bad if we're not prepared to prosecute our own leaders for doing the same thing?

Fact is Putin would never have invaded Ukraine in the first place without all the US interference in Ukrainian politics this century.

Its still a sh*t act, but it would never have happened otherwise.

Because it’s happening right now. If you want to go on about stuff Australians did from 2003 maybe start a relevant thread about it.

 

[Val Keating]

Just moving forward 20 years to the present, this is the mayor Russia installed after taking the actual mayor prisoner.

 

[Val Keating]

You know what else is annoying? I have been following what’s happening in Yemen but now if I search for it all I get is posts with something like “no one cares about Yemen but they care about Ukraine”….. there’s thousands of them. People ****ing care. It’s ok to care about more then one ****ing thing at a time. ****.

 

[Eggs11]

So when we send john Howard to trial for war crimes and the individuals and command responsible for the crimes in Afghanistan then we might have the right to criticise someone else for doing the same thing. Till then we're full of sh*t.

But you’re very happy to criticise others. You’ve been criticising the US and Europeans for the past week.

More whataboutism to deflect from the fact that Russsia is murdering innocent civilians right now.

 

[Eggs11]

Just moving forward 20 years to the present, this is the mayor Russia installed after taking the actual mayor prisoner.

It’s such a caricature it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.

 

[Eggs11]

Why are we pretending Putin has done something bad

Oh dear.

 

[Val Keating]

It’s such a caricature it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic.

It’s cactus. It’ll only lead to more war in the future.

 

[Mav]

Fact is Putin would never have invaded Ukraine in the first place without all the US interference in Ukrainian politics this century.

This gets sprouted a lot but where is it proven to be true? This isn’t the first time Russia has invaded, and there’s so much history between the 2 countries. Why was Ukraine so keen to join NATO? The only reason for them to join was because they knew it was only a matter of time before Putin would invade.

I presume the US have always known this and they knew to win the war and the PR battle was to prepare Ukraine.

 

[Masked Avenger]

Normally don't mind the contrarian view of the world but Putin's a barbarian. End of story. No moral equivolance at my end. Innocent civilians are being slaughtered for an idea - nothing more. What's needed is a coup detat because there are no democratic levers here.

 

[Mav]

Oh dear.

Yeah, pretty stupid comment. What he was trying to say was, why do we pretend we didn’t do something bad.

What Putin is doing is shit, and Ferbs and SOTDOTB have always agreed with this. They just like to point out the hypocrisy in the fan boy cheering that is going on for just this atrocity.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

Fact is Putin would never have invaded Ukraine in the first place without all the US interference in Ukrainian politics this century.

He wouldn't have needed to because he would have installed his own puppet regime. A self determining Ukraine was something he would never have allowed as they were increasingly looking westward for their future.

He failed to maintain influence because the Ukranian parliament and people roundly demanded they join the EU as an associated member rather than the Russian controlled Eurasian Economic Union despite the disparity in the quality of the deals offered. The then president wanted to go towards Ruasia but the parliament and people wanted to go Europe. The US took advantage of this turmoil to ensure the ascent of a leadership that was as westward looking as is people and parliament. In response Vlad then invaded the Crimea and flooded Donbas with military support and bolstered their separatist movement. In reality Russia invaded the Ukraine 8 years ago. They just waited until they felt conditions were right to launch phase 2.

Vlad lost the battle for influence because Ukranians don't want to be a Russian vassal so he used NATO encroachment as an excuse to take back what he feels is rightly a land in the Russian sphere of influence. If he can't control his largest western neighbour by economic and political means he will do so by military means. His biggest misunderstanding is his belief that Ukrainians want to be Russian as much as he wants Russia to absorb Ukraine.

 

[B4Bear]

Of course you do. Every country has blood on their hands. So what, because you’re Australian you get to say “oh well, that’s just the way it is”? Nah mate that’s too easy.

Just wait until the excuses for China attacking Taiwan; they will be legion.

 

[Mav]

 

[B4Bear]

Yeah, pretty stupid comment. What he was trying to say was, why do we pretend we didn’t do something bad.

What Putin is doing is sh*t, and Ferbs and SOTDOTB have always agreed with this. They just like to point out the hypocrisy in the fan boy cheering that is going on for just this atrocity.

Everyone has their hypocrisy to bear. I didn’t see him and the others excusing Putin protesting the murder of children by the Taliban over the last 20 years.

If no country has clean hands, then if China attack Australia; what then?

It is a childish argument that allows for no comment by anyone, ever, on anything.

 

[Val Keating]

Just wait until the excuses for China attacking Taiwan; they will be legion.

If, or some people think when that happens it’ll spark nuclear war. Then no opinions will matter. The west is obligated to defend Taiwan.