Autopsy Round 3 = Collingwood 91-104 Geelong

[Jen2310]

I don't think i've ever seen Sidebottom, one of the fittest runners in the league, cramp before. Geelong has also rested Selwood, one of the toughest bastards in the league, for their clash against Brisbane. I reckon that's a testament to just how tough that game was.

A few people, commentators included; said it felt like a finals-like game. Can't say I disagree. It was pretty intense.

 

[Heater3923]

I don't think i've ever seen Sidebottom, one of the fittest runners in the league, cramp before. Geelong has also rested Selwood, one of the toughest bastards in the league, for their clash against Brisbane. I reckon that's a testament to just how tough that game was.

Yeah having rewatched the game a few times. I tend to agree with you. I think we pushed the Cats to their limit just to win that game for Selwood. We’d embarrassed them for the 3rd. And been in control for most of the game.

There were some basic disposal and mental errors that crept into our game in the 4th. We repelled quite well but didn’t hit open targets and turned it over on centre wing quite often leading to a repeat in50 entry for the cats.

It wasn’t really Cats actual pressure (maybe perceived pressure) that caused what i would call unforced turnovers - more us being fatigued by foot and/or lacking execution.

Even though Moore and Magden collided - we still had a chance to repel with Quaynor loving to have his time again to find a better option than hand balling to no one.

Unlucky moments inside 50 too with Grundys left foot shot from 45 dropping 1 metre short (would put us up 30 points against the flow) and Elliot usually kicks the one point we had for the quarter - which would have given us 5 point lead late.

I was expecting a Cats win by 4 goals going into the game - I’ll take that loss any day considering Cats got to sub a big man for Dalhaus while our only option without Sidebottom was to rotate 3 players from 14:30 to go (24 points up) in the 4th (despite Steeles effort coming on and off for about a minute).

It really was like the pre medical sub era - where a team with 3 on the bench would often run out of gas and be run down vs teams with 4 interchanges.

 

[TradeDraft]

I don't think i've ever seen Sidebottom, one of the fittest runners in the league, cramp before. Geelong has also rested Selwood, one of the toughest bastards in the league, for their clash against Brisbane. I reckon that's a testament to just how tough that game was.

Steele is the wrong side of 30

 

[sr36]

I don't think i've ever seen Sidebottom, one of the fittest runners in the league, cramp before. Geelong has also rested Selwood, one of the toughest bastards in the league, for their clash against Brisbane. I reckon that's a testament to just how tough that game was.

Was a really quick game, but Sidey had had gastro during the week - that'd be why he didn't run it out.

 

[Apex36]

I don't think i've ever seen Sidebottom, one of the fittest runners in the league, cramp before. Geelong has also rested Selwood, one of the toughest bastards in the league, for their clash against Brisbane. I reckon that's a testament to just how tough that game was.

He was coming off gastro earlier in the week, so most likely dehydrated which would have contributed to the cramping.

 

[Daicos Torpedo]

I heard Fly say Rusty was cramped worse than Lux Interior and Poison Ivy. Family had gastro.
Re watched 3rd quarter. Amazing.
But.
The scumps missed so many free kicks.
Yes it was hot.
Duckwoods against Crisp for The cross eyed experiments goal and another against Grundy.
Lots of holding they missed...
Should have been 10 hundred and 34 7 in front at 3/4 time...
Yes.
The wine is fine

 

[Finnishpie]

Just on Sidebottom not being subbed - because I too was perplexed…

Under the AFL’s rules:

To be eligible for a medical substitution, the club doctor must decide that an injured player will be unable to play a game in the next 12 days.

New rule reveal: AFL brings in 'medical sub' ahead of R1

AFL gives green light to an expanded bench that will include a medical substitute

www.afl.com.au

So I don’t think this was a coaching decision. Cramp really isn’t something a club doctor could certify would have had Sidebottom out for 12 or more days.

At the end our interchange bench was Sidebottom (12 mins), Noble and Henry (9 mins) and N Daicos (8 mins).

Interchanges were 71/75. So we could have rotated those three as somewhat fresh legs at some point in the last few minutes - maybe after the Cameron goal with 3 mins left.

But I actually think it was a coaching decision not to put the 3 back out there and manage their work loads. It’s a long season. We were unlikely to win once cats went 7 points up.

In hindsight, the Ratugolea injury (like J-Pod in 2011 GF) proved a turning point for the Cats. He’d basically offered the Cats nothing with only 4 possessions.

Delhaus comes on for 23 mins, brings some pace in the front half, has 7 touches, 2 clearances and 4 score involvements.

So yeah, at first I was critical of our strategy not to sub Sidebottom. But having re-read the rules I don’t think our doctor or coaches had any say in it - which really gave Geelong an advantage to run all over us in the last 12 mins

Thanks for that. Good to know the actual rule.

I guess there were other things the coaches could have done: moved one back behind the ball, changed the centre-square setup -- those are the two I'd have thought might be worth doing.

 

[Finnishpie]

Steele is the wrong side of 30

Apparently he was sick a couple of days before, so that played a part.

 

[Matrix10]

Just did analysis on footy classified of the game with Cats , Jack Madgen

44

Jack Madgen

Age

32

Ht

192cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.8

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.5

3star

MG

154.4

2star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.5

3star

T

1.0

2star

MG

79.0

1star

D

13.4

4star

K

6.2

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.4

4star

MG

172.8

3star

was highlighted and how far off his opponent he stood ,on multiple occasions, cost us at least 4 goals from basic non positioning as a so called backman , or should that be Hackman , he is terrible, and with Leppitsch as defensive coach , I’m sure he’ll be snarling. Another scrap heap footballer that’s gotta go

 

[davywap]

We lost the UNloseabke

Unbelievable

If it were unlosable we wouldn't have lost

 

[jathanas]

Just on Sidebottom not being subbed - because I too was perplexed…

Under the AFL’s rules:

To be eligible for a medical substitution, the club doctor must decide that an injured player will be unable to play a game in the next 12 days.

New rule reveal: AFL brings in 'medical sub' ahead of R1

AFL gives green light to an expanded bench that will include a medical substitute

www.afl.com.au

So I don’t think this was a coaching decision. Cramp really isn’t something a club doctor could certify would have had Sidebottom out for 12 or more days.

At the end our interchange bench was Sidebottom (12 mins), Noble and Henry (9 mins) and N Daicos (8 mins).

Interchanges were 71/75. So we could have rotated those three as somewhat fresh legs at some point in the last few minutes - maybe after the Cameron goal with 3 mins left.

But I actually think it was a coaching decision not to put the 3 back out there and manage their work loads. It’s a long season. We were unlikely to win once cats went 7 points up.

In hindsight, the Ratugolea injury (like J-Pod in 2011 GF) proved a turning point for the Cats. He’d basically offered the Cats nothing with only 4 possessions.

Delhaus comes on for 23 mins, brings some pace in the front half, has 7 touches, 2 clearances and 4 score involvements.

So yeah, at first I was critical of our strategy not to sub Sidebottom. But having re-read the rules I don’t think our doctor or coaches had any say in it - which really gave Geelong an advantage to run all over us in the last 12 mins

Thanks for the clarity. Agree about Dalhaus being a major factor for the cats in the last.

Kick straight in the first half and we had this.

 

[jonbe54]

Thanks for the clarity. Agree about Dalhaus being a major factor for the cats in the last.

Kick straight in the first half and we had this.

Couldn't agree more with the last.

 

[Heater3923]

Because I’m a massive nerd with time on my hands - here’s my breakdown of every scoring passage. Apologies if I bore the shit outta people - it is a Thursday and I should be well and truly over reviewing this loss

4th qtr scores/key moments

19:30 - win centre bounce JDG handballs ineffectively (should have roosted it 60m ins50) cats turnover use overlap Duncan marks and goals from pocket

18:04 - lose centre clearance JDG free kick to Dangerfield. Cats get it ins50 and Jezza kicks to the square. We repel only for J Daicos to make an error snap kick up the corridor Delhaus mark and kicks out on the full.

17:33 from the point Henry marks on the wing play on and McInnes caught but with pressure Henry gets it back and ins50 to a two on one. Cats repell. We wasted a chance to slow the game down a bit here. Henry needs to take his full 30 seconds let our players get into the fwd half and kick long to HFF and at least force a stoppage.

16:22 we won the boundary throw in at HBF, and found Adams to mark. Slows it down and chips to crisp. Crisp kicks long to square Sidebottom hands to Quaynor who fumbles (wasn’t the best bounce). Force a stoppage at HFF. Good result.

16:00 McInnes roves boundary throw in gets it to Grundy who snaps on left. A metre short. Cats mark then kick out on full.

15:38 long kick to square almost rove to get a shot and Elliot called for a throw??

14:35 cats take the ball threw middle open us up by turnover in goal square. You can see Sidebottom cramp and not be able to run during this part. We repel again quite easily to centre wing but crisp over kicks an open McInnes. Sidebottom runs to interchange

13:45 cats turn it over from crisps poor kick, ins50 and goal. Not much our defence or players could do. 17 men on the ground at that stage and I’m sure Sidebottom would have been a player getting back to fill up more space in def ins50 to make it harder to find bliscavs on the lead.

12:00 poor execution out of the centre square with Duncan winning it on the wing - cats kick out on full in pocket. Pies then don’t hit targets with a short ish kick and crisp fumbles. Ball in dispute we actually win it then if not for a bad handball by crisp to JDG we are away - cats scramble and win the ball flick it into the middle and kick direct to Jezza - goal.

11:03 lost the centre clearance but earned free kick at CHB. Worked the ball well up the wing causing throw in. Then grundy wins next hit out kicks quickly to fwd pocket. Force it out at HFF. Exactly what you want to see. Probably the most composed passage of play of the qtr.

10:37 cats win the boundary throw in kick long to CHB. Pies out number cats 5 to 4. Moore and Magden collide and Quaynor gathers and handballs to no one. Another Jezza goal.

Perhaps our defenders were too far up the ground at the boundary throw in? Having said that - we still out numbered the cats fwds 5 to 4. Players really should have done better here knowing they had an extra man and should have worked it away by hand quite easily and repelled for another fwd in50 or at least got to fwd of centre.

9:00 cats win centre clearance. Don’t make the most of it free kick to Magden. Work it to mid field and cause two ball ups.

At the stoppage Stewart is the cats loose defender behind the ball. I think our loose player behind the ball is Quaynor who seems to be pointing, arguing and communicating with Pendles. Neither seem to really be sure where they meant to be. From that stoppage Dangerfield shanks it fwd. both pendlebury and Quaynor appear to be out of position and boundary side - basically useless in being able to be a third man up. They are both in no man’s land. Cats rove and no.45 goals.

Honestly, that’s the worst stoppage set up of the McCrae era. I hope it’s not a pattern. Thats the same type of poor communication and lack of basic positioning that we used to have at the stoppage under Buckley, which cost us several goals in 2018 GF.

I’m blaming the Captain for that goal. He’s arguing with an unsure Quaynor where to be and both end up in woeful areas that result in us being unstructured and unable to repel a miss kick that should have been handled easily by our defence.

6:49 - a lot of scrambling in and out of cats fwd 50 to centre wing and back again. Finally get a mark in the centre. Sidebottom can’t run though. So forced to hand ball. Still gets to Henry HFF. Kicks long to square to two on one punched out. Sidebottom off. Ginnovan sprays Henry for the kick. On replay it’s easy to see why. Ginnovans man is the one who got across to Mihochek to spoil. Ginnovan was open 35-40 out right in front. This missed opportunity is on Henry.

5:10 cats work it from throw in by foot but our zone impedes them and ball goes out HBF. Odd free to cats at throw in. Another stoppage delhaus snaps a point.

3:45 work it from the kick out to centre wing. Stoppage free kick and kick long to HFF. Free to McInnes. Elliot marks sprays the shot. 91 to 91.

2:23 cats work it to centre wing. Both have loose men back. Quaynor doesn’t have much impact on the contest as it’s forced fwd by cats who hit Hawkins on the lead. Kicks a point. At this stage its balls out trying to win against the flow.

1:25 horrendous kick by Pendles toward centre wing. Turnover. Cats kick to Jezza. Goal.

0:29 - cats win centre clearance. Work it fwd. free to Hawkins. Goal.

The key points for me:

• Beaten in centre clearance but repelled cats time and time again. They only scored one goal directly from the centre bounce. That’s a big tick for the back 6 for me.
• Made too many errors when we had the chance to win the centre clearance. Maybe just get it on the boot fwd when under pressure rather than precise handballs etc.
• We did have a spare man behind the ball and so did the Cats
• Quaynor is still learning his role as spare man down back. Long way to go.
• Coach needs to have a word with all defensive players (but mainly Pendles and Quaynor) to make sure they understand stoppage set ups behind the ball. No point being caught boundary side in no man’s land if the opposition wins the stoppage. This was the worst mistake of the game. Easy goal to the cats due to bad communication, poor leadership and lack of understanding of where to be positioned
• Henry must work on his composure and looking for smaller targets inside 50. Kicks long to two on ones far too often.
• Don’t think there were many things the coaches could have done to make an impact or stem the flow. Players need to execute when fatigue hits and win the contested ball - which we dominated for 3/4s.
• The gameplan gave the opportunities. Didn’t take them and some players made pretty ordinary mental errors and execution down the stretch.

 

[jathanas]

Because I’m a massive nerd with time on my hands - here’s my breakdown of every scoring passage. Apologies if I bore the shit outta people - it is a Thursday and I should be well and truly over reviewing this loss

4th qtr scores/key moments

19:30 - win centre bounce JDG handballs ineffectively (should have roosted it 60m ins50) cats turnover use overlap Duncan marks and goals from pocket

18:04 - lose centre clearance JDG free kick to Dangerfield. Cats get it ins50 and Jezza kicks to the square. We repel only for J Daicos to make an error snap kick up the corridor Delhaus mark and kicks out on the full.

17:33 from the point Henry marks on the wing play on and McInnes caught but with pressure Henry gets it back and ins50 to a two on one. Cats repell. We wasted a chance to slow the game down a bit here. Henry needs to take his full 30 seconds let our players get into the fwd half and kick long to HFF and at least force a stoppage.

16:22 we won the boundary throw in at HBF, and found Adams to mark. Slows it down and chips to crisp. Crisp kicks long to square Sidebottom hands to Quaynor who fumbles (wasn’t the best bounce). Force a stoppage at HFF. Good result.

16:00 McInnes roves boundary throw in gets it to Grundy who snaps on left. A metre short. Cats mark then kick out on full.

15:38 long kick to square almost rove to get a shot and Elliot called for a throw??

14:35 cats take the ball threw middle open us up by turnover in goal square. You can see Sidebottom cramp and not be able to run during this part. We repel again quite easily to centre wing but crisp over kicks an open McInnes. Sidebottom runs to interchange

13:45 cats turn it over from crisps poor kick, ins50 and goal. Not much our defence or players could do. 17 men on the ground at that stage and I’m sure Sidebottom would have been a player getting back to fill up more space in def ins50 to make it harder to find bliscavs on the lead.

12:00 poor execution out of the centre square with Duncan winning it on the wing - cats kick out on full in pocket. Pies then don’t hit targets with a short ish kick and crisp fumbles. Ball in dispute we actually win it then if not for a bad handball by crisp to JDG we are away - cats scramble and win the ball flick it into the middle and kick direct to Jezza - goal.

11:03 lost the centre clearance but earned free kick at CHB. Worked the ball well up the wing causing throw in. Then grundy wins next hit out kicks quickly to fwd pocket. Force it out at HFF. Exactly what you want to see. Probably the most composed passage of play of the qtr.

10:37 cats win the boundary throw in kick long to CHB. Pies out number cats 5 to 4. Moore and Magden collide and Quaynor gathers and handballs to no one. Another Jezza goal.

Perhaps our defenders were too far up the ground at the boundary throw in? Having said that - we still out numbered the cats fwds 5 to 4. Players really should have done better here knowing they had an extra man and should have worked it away by hand quite easily and repelled for another fwd in50 or at least got to fwd of centre.

9:00 cats win centre clearance. Don’t make the most of it free kick to Magden. Work it to mid field and cause two ball ups.

At the stoppage Stewart is the cats loose defender behind the ball. I think our loose player behind the ball is Quaynor who seems to be pointing, arguing and communicating with Pendles. Neither seem to really be sure where they meant to be. From that stoppage Dangerfield shanks it fwd. both pendlebury and Quaynor appear to be out of position and boundary side - basically useless in being able to be a third man up. They are both in no man’s land. Cats rove and no.45 goals.

Honestly, that’s the worst stoppage set up of the McCrae era. I hope it’s not a pattern. Thats the same type of poor communication and lack of basic positioning that we used to have at the stoppage under Buckley, which cost us several goals in 2018 GF.

I’m blaming the Captain for that goal. He’s arguing with an unsure Quaynor where to be and both end up in woeful areas that result in us being unstructured and unable to repel a miss kick that should have been handled easily by our defence.

6:49 - a lot of scrambling in and out of cats fwd 50 to centre wing and back again. Finally get a mark in the centre. Sidebottom can’t run though. So forced to hand ball. Still gets to Henry HFF. Kicks long to square to two on one punched out. Sidebottom off. Ginnovan sprays Henry for the kick. On replay it’s easy to see why. Ginnovans man is the one who got across to Mihochek to spoil. Ginnovan was open 35-40 out right in front. This missed opportunity is on Henry.

5:10 cats work it from throw in by foot but our zone impedes them and ball goes out HBF. Odd free to cats at throw in. Another stoppage delhaus snaps a point.

3:45 work it from the kick out to centre wing. Stoppage free kick and kick long to HFF. Free to McInnes. Elliot marks sprays the shot. 91 to 91.

2:23 cats work it to centre wing. Both have loose men back. Quaynor doesn’t have much impact on the contest as it’s forced fwd by cats who hit Hawkins on the lead. Kicks a point. At this stage its balls out trying to win against the flow.

1:25 horrendous kick by Pendles toward centre wing. Turnover. Cats kick to Jezza. Goal.

0:29 - cats win centre clearance. Work it fwd. free to Hawkins. Goal.

The key points for me:

• Beaten in centre clearance but repelled cats time and time again. They only scored one goal directly from the centre bounce. That’s a big tick for the back 6 for me.
• Made too many errors when we had the chance to win the centre clearance. Maybe just get it on the boot fwd when under pressure rather than precise handballs etc.
• We did have a spare man behind the ball and so did the Cats
• Quaynor is still learning his role as spare man down back. Long way to go.
• Coach needs to have a word with all defensive players (but mainly Pendles and Quaynor) to make sure they understand stoppage set ups behind the ball. No point being caught boundary side in no man’s land if the opposition wins the stoppage. This was the worst mistake of the game. Easy goal to the cats due to bad communication, poor leadership and lack of understanding of where to be positioned
• Henry must work on his composure and looking for smaller targets inside 50. Kicks long to two on ones far too often.
• Don’t think there were many things the coaches could have done to make an impact or stem the flow. Players need to execute when fatigue hits and win the contested ball - which we dominated for 3/4s.
• The gameplan gave the opportunities. Didn’t take them and some players made pretty ordinary mental errors and execution down the stretch.

 

[Pie eyed]

Oh yeah, I’m clearly his biggest fan…

Just jestin'.

 

[Apex36]

I hate Ross Lyon, but he highlights here exactly the type of thing Madgen does week in and week out that makes him a defensive liability:

 

[TradeDraft]

I hate Ross Lyon, but he highlights here exactly the type of thing Madgen does week in and week out that makes him a defensive liability:

How does Madgen a VFL Player keeps getting Games is Beyond me

 

[Apex36]

How does Madgen a VFL Player keeps getting Games is Beyond me

One more week Dave, then Roughy is back.

 

[danielnajdek]

I hate Ross Lyon, but he highlights here exactly the type of thing Madgen does week in and week out that makes him a defensive liability:

Yep he is horrible. Always behind his man and is slow as shit so never can gain on his opponent.

 

[Apex36]

Yep he is horrible. Always behind his man and is slow as shit so never can gain on his opponent.

It’s astonishing that he’d give Cameron so much space. May as well have an inanimate carbon rod defending him.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

And it made Moore look worse, because he was having to peel off his own man and close down his teammates’ opponent all night.

 

[TradeDraft]

And it made Moore look worse, because he was having to peel off his own man and close down his teammates’ opponent all night.

He can't do Everything

 

[Heater3923]

Yep he is horrible. Always behind his man and is slow as shit so never can gain on his opponent.

As I put on extreme black and white and repeat here … I actually question whether you idiots (including Lyon) actually go back and watch the games…. Our mid field and HF line was putrid in the 4th.

No good coach ever blames a loss on its last line of defence. Explain to me when Malthouse ever burnt a FB??? Never happened… Anyway as explained on Extreme Black and White … You idiots blaming Madgen (including Lyon) have no ****ing idea

Firstly - I don’t think Magden is in our best 22 if all defenders are fit.

However, I don’t agree with Lyons basic analysis. Might be an indication as to why he never won a premiership as a coach I’d he just like lombasting the last line of defence rather than looking up further a field for the root cause of the problemS

1. The first “ball watching” goal they show is a clip of cats streaming thru the mid field. Lyon is treating the symptom not the cause.

Rewind the tape 30 seconds. What was the cause of both our defenders being up the ground and caught out on the turnover?

Our mids screwed up on short kicks along the wing coming out of defence, ball in dispute, we win it back then Crisp handballs poorly to JDG and cats force a contested ball which we ultimately lose and they squeeze it out by hand thru the corridor and goal east as both Moore and Magden are flat footed.

Moore has exceptional closing speed - Magden doesn’t. Both were caught out by the turnover on centre wing when the ball should have been in our fwd 50. However Moore could close the gap and gets praised by Lyon. Yet both were caught out by our mid fields in ability to work the ball from HBF to HFF and retain possession.

Had our midfield not coughed the ball up on centre wing our defence would never have been caught out. Midfield has to execute better when we have such reliance on team defence.

2. Rewind the tape 30 seconds again. What caused that rebound inside 50 for the cats from our kick out?

We kick out from a point. Pendlebury kicks short to Crisp. Magden is up near the 50 arc, crisp plays on hand balls to Pendles and Magden tries to sheppard for pendlebury. Pendlebury then woefully kicks to an open Lipinski. WHE gathers and cats tackle.

Now why would Magden have been up near the 50m arc I hear you ask? Because our defence was setting up for us to at least get the ball to centre wing. We only had 3 in def 50 cause cats were happy to flood back and defend the one point lead. There was also 2:20 on the clock so it was our last chance to score.

Cats tackle WHE force a turnover and there is space everywhere for cats fwds. There are litterally 2 cats and 3 pies in the 50m zone. Space everywhere. It appears Magden moore and Quaynor are defending space in a triangular shape waiting for other mids to gut run and flood the 50 to close down space. This happened time and again in through out the match. But this didn’t happen this time. It took 10 seconds from the Pendles shank kick for the cats to turn it over and hit Cameron on the chest. The movement was too quick, our players were fatigued had set up for a contested situation on centre wing. But the ball never got to centre wing cause Pendles shanked the kick.

Even if Magden was on Cameron’s shoulder the space out in front - there was nothing Magden could have done to keep up with Cameron. He would have burnt him on the lead anyway. Because as I identified earlier in point 1 - Magden doesn’t have the closing speed Moore does.

So in summary, we were trying to go coast to coast and win and got caught out because no one expected Pendlebury to be so woeful by foot. That Cameron goal is all on Pendlebury - it wasn’t our coaches fault, nor our defence or Magden. We need to hit open targets plain and simple.

Again, I don’t think Magden is elite. He’s a stop gap defender that gives 100% but is most likely better suited to VFL. But this pile on is completely unfair.

If the experienced mid fielders keep coughing up the ball when they should be hitting targets or making better decisions that then expose our defensive strategies on the turnover - then the answer is not shit canning the defenders (regardless of how out of their depth you may think they are) but looking at one or more of:

• trading out these experienced mids and getting better blokes in that can execute Flys game plan and not cough it up between the arcs and fwds like Henry not just bombing it long to 2 on 1’s all day (I’m sure our mids and fwds will get better as they adapt to new gameplan though)
• fly tweaking the gameplan (which I’m sure will happen over the next 3 years).

Cats dominated centre clearance in the 4th. They had one clean shot at goal directly from centre clearance. Duncan was pushed wide and kicked a ripper. So when it counted most - one on one under 6-6-6 our defenders did their jobs, including Magden. Cats goals were mainly from repeat ins 50s, our inability to work the ball through the arcs and our fwds like Henry blazing to two on 1s instead of hitting up better options.

We only needed 3 goals in the 4th to win that game. Our mids and HFF line didn’t do their jobs and failed to execute. Bagging Magden for being out of position is ridiculous when our defence rebounded the cats inside 50s with aplomb the whole qtr only to see the ball ping back in because our mids and HFFs didn’t execute.

And something I didn’t put on Extreme Black and White - any dumb **** blaming Magden for our loss is ****ing clues less. Our mids did nothing. Our defence repelled ins50 after ins50. Our mids and HFF butchered every chance they got in the 4th. Look at Henry’s two key disposals in the 4th. The guy has no idea. Kicks to 2 on 1s deep. No composure and doesn’t see open fwds like Ginnovan 40 out in front with 6 mins to go

 

[Carringbush2010]

Because I’m a massive nerd with time on my hands - here’s my breakdown of every scoring passage. Apologies if I bore the shit outta people - it is a Thursday and I should be well and truly over reviewing this loss

4th qtr scores/key moments

19:30 - win centre bounce JDG handballs ineffectively (should have roosted it 60m ins50) cats turnover use overlap Duncan marks and goals from pocket

18:04 - lose centre clearance JDG free kick to Dangerfield. Cats get it ins50 and Jezza kicks to the square. We repel only for J Daicos to make an error snap kick up the corridor Delhaus mark and kicks out on the full.

17:33 from the point Henry marks on the wing play on and McInnes caught but with pressure Henry gets it back and ins50 to a two on one. Cats repell. We wasted a chance to slow the game down a bit here. Henry needs to take his full 30 seconds let our players get into the fwd half and kick long to HFF and at least force a stoppage.

16:22 we won the boundary throw in at HBF, and found Adams to mark. Slows it down and chips to crisp. Crisp kicks long to square Sidebottom hands to Quaynor who fumbles (wasn’t the best bounce). Force a stoppage at HFF. Good result.

16:00 McInnes roves boundary throw in gets it to Grundy who snaps on left. A metre short. Cats mark then kick out on full.

15:38 long kick to square almost rove to get a shot and Elliot called for a throw??

14:35 cats take the ball threw middle open us up by turnover in goal square. You can see Sidebottom cramp and not be able to run during this part. We repel again quite easily to centre wing but crisp over kicks an open McInnes. Sidebottom runs to interchange

13:45 cats turn it over from crisps poor kick, ins50 and goal. Not much our defence or players could do. 17 men on the ground at that stage and I’m sure Sidebottom would have been a player getting back to fill up more space in def ins50 to make it harder to find bliscavs on the lead.

12:00 poor execution out of the centre square with Duncan winning it on the wing - cats kick out on full in pocket. Pies then don’t hit targets with a short ish kick and crisp fumbles. Ball in dispute we actually win it then if not for a bad handball by crisp to JDG we are away - cats scramble and win the ball flick it into the middle and kick direct to Jezza - goal.

11:03 lost the centre clearance but earned free kick at CHB. Worked the ball well up the wing causing throw in. Then grundy wins next hit out kicks quickly to fwd pocket. Force it out at HFF. Exactly what you want to see. Probably the most composed passage of play of the qtr.

10:37 cats win the boundary throw in kick long to CHB. Pies out number cats 5 to 4. Moore and Magden collide and Quaynor gathers and handballs to no one. Another Jezza goal.

Perhaps our defenders were too far up the ground at the boundary throw in? Having said that - we still out numbered the cats fwds 5 to 4. Players really should have done better here knowing they had an extra man and should have worked it away by hand quite easily and repelled for another fwd in50 or at least got to fwd of centre.

9:00 cats win centre clearance. Don’t make the most of it free kick to Magden. Work it to mid field and cause two ball ups.

At the stoppage Stewart is the cats loose defender behind the ball. I think our loose player behind the ball is Quaynor who seems to be pointing, arguing and communicating with Pendles. Neither seem to really be sure where they meant to be. From that stoppage Dangerfield shanks it fwd. both pendlebury and Quaynor appear to be out of position and boundary side - basically useless in being able to be a third man up. They are both in no man’s land. Cats rove and no.45 goals.

Honestly, that’s the worst stoppage set up of the McCrae era. I hope it’s not a pattern. Thats the same type of poor communication and lack of basic positioning that we used to have at the stoppage under Buckley, which cost us several goals in 2018 GF.

I’m blaming the Captain for that goal. He’s arguing with an unsure Quaynor where to be and both end up in woeful areas that result in us being unstructured and unable to repel a miss kick that should have been handled easily by our defence.

6:49 - a lot of scrambling in and out of cats fwd 50 to centre wing and back again. Finally get a mark in the centre. Sidebottom can’t run though. So forced to hand ball. Still gets to Henry HFF. Kicks long to square to two on one punched out. Sidebottom off. Ginnovan sprays Henry for the kick. On replay it’s easy to see why. Ginnovans man is the one who got across to Mihochek to spoil. Ginnovan was open 35-40 out right in front. This missed opportunity is on Henry.

5:10 cats work it from throw in by foot but our zone impedes them and ball goes out HBF. Odd free to cats at throw in. Another stoppage delhaus snaps a point.

3:45 work it from the kick out to centre wing. Stoppage free kick and kick long to HFF. Free to McInnes. Elliot marks sprays the shot. 91 to 91.

2:23 cats work it to centre wing. Both have loose men back. Quaynor doesn’t have much impact on the contest as it’s forced fwd by cats who hit Hawkins on the lead. Kicks a point. At this stage its balls out trying to win against the flow.

1:25 horrendous kick by Pendles toward centre wing. Turnover. Cats kick to Jezza. Goal.

0:29 - cats win centre clearance. Work it fwd. free to Hawkins. Goal.

The key points for me:

• Beaten in centre clearance but repelled cats time and time again. They only scored one goal directly from the centre bounce. That’s a big tick for the back 6 for me.
• Made too many errors when we had the chance to win the centre clearance. Maybe just get it on the boot fwd when under pressure rather than precise handballs etc.
• We did have a spare man behind the ball and so did the Cats
• Quaynor is still learning his role as spare man down back. Long way to go.
• Coach needs to have a word with all defensive players (but mainly Pendles and Quaynor) to make sure they understand stoppage set ups behind the ball. No point being caught boundary side in no man’s land if the opposition wins the stoppage. This was the worst mistake of the game. Easy goal to the cats due to bad communication, poor leadership and lack of understanding of where to be positioned
• Henry must work on his composure and looking for smaller targets inside 50. Kicks long to two on ones far too often.
• Don’t think there were many things the coaches could have done to make an impact or stem the flow. Players need to execute when fatigue hits and win the contested ball - which we dominated for 3/4s.
• The gameplan gave the opportunities. Didn’t take them and some players made pretty ordinary mental errors and execution down the stretch.

Great post, and in a simplistic summary, it highlights that we're in a development year and we're not on the same page - yet. This manic outnumber at the ball and the outside is great but as you've highlighted we continued in the last. Got beaten at our own game, cats brought pressure and we attempted to continue that game style.

Fly alluded that we need to do what we did for 4 qtrs, willing to bet that means tempo down the game when the opposition gets momentum - find balance in it. This frenetic move the ball forward at break neck speed is not sustainable over a season, I'd be very surprised if Fly and co would disagree with what you've posted here.

 

[Apex36]

As I put on extreme black and white and repeat here … I actually question whether you idiots (including Lyon) actually go back and watch the games…. Our mid field and HF line was putrid in the 4th.

No good coach ever blames a loss on its last line of defence. Explain to me when Malthouse ever burnt a FB??? Never happened… Anyway as explained on Extreme Black and White … You idiots blaming Madgen (including Lyon) have no ******* idea

Firstly - I don’t think Magden is in our best 22 if all defenders are fit.

However, I don’t agree with Lyons basic analysis. Might be an indication as to why he never won a premiership as a coach I’d he just like lombasting the last line of defence rather than looking up further a field for the root cause of the problemS

1. The first “ball watching” goal they show is a clip of cats streaming thru the mid field. Lyon is treating the symptom not the cause.

Rewind the tape 30 seconds. What was the cause of both our defenders being up the ground and caught out on the turnover?

Our mids screwed up on short kicks along the wing coming out of defence, ball in dispute, we win it back then Crisp handballs poorly to JDG and cats force a contested ball which we ultimately lose and they squeeze it out by hand thru the corridor and goal east as both Moore and Magden are flat footed.

Moore has exceptional closing speed - Magden doesn’t. Both were caught out by the turnover on centre wing when the ball should have been in our fwd 50. However Moore could close the gap and gets praised by Lyon. Yet both were caught out by our mid fields in ability to work the ball from HBF to HFF and retain possession.

Had our midfield not coughed the ball up on centre wing our defence would never have been caught out. Midfield has to execute better when we have such reliance on team defence.

2. Rewind the tape 30 seconds again. What caused that rebound inside 50 for the cats from our kick out?

We kick out from a point. Pendlebury kicks short to Crisp. Magden is up near the 50 arc, crisp plays on hand balls to Pendles and Magden tries to sheppard for pendlebury. Pendlebury then woefully kicks to an open Lipinski. WHE gathers and cats tackle.

Now why would Magden have been up near the 50m arc I hear you ask? Because our defence was setting up for us to at least get the ball to centre wing. We only had 3 in def 50 cause cats were happy to flood back and defend the one point lead. There was also 2:20 on the clock so it was our last chance to score.

Cats tackle WHE force a turnover and there is space everywhere for cats fwds. There are litterally 2 cats and 3 pies in the 50m zone. Space everywhere. It appears Magden moore and Quaynor are defending space in a triangular shape waiting for other mids to gut run and flood the 50 to close down space. This happened time and again in through out the match. But this didn’t happen this time. It took 10 seconds from the Pendles shank kick for the cats to turn it over and hit Cameron on the chest. The movement was too quick, our players were fatigued had set up for a contested situation on centre wing. But the ball never got to centre wing cause Pendles shanked the kick.

Even if Magden was on Cameron’s shoulder the space out in front - there was nothing Magden could have done to keep up with Cameron. He would have burnt him on the lead anyway. Because as I identified earlier in point 1 - Magden doesn’t have the closing speed Moore does.

So in summary, we were trying to go coast to coast and win and got caught out because no one expected Pendlebury to be so woeful by foot. That Cameron goal is all on Pendlebury - it wasn’t our coaches fault, nor our defence or Magden. We need to hit open targets plain and simple.

Again, I don’t think Magden is elite. He’s a stop gap defender that gives 100% but is most likely better suited to VFL. But this pile on is completely unfair.

If the experienced mid fielders keep coughing up the ball when they should be hitting targets or making better decisions that then expose our defensive strategies on the turnover - then the answer is not shit canning the defenders (regardless of how out of their depth you may think they are) but looking at one or more of:

• trading out these experienced mids and getting better blokes in that can execute Flys game plan and not cough it up between the arcs and fwds like Henry not just bombing it long to 2 on 1’s all day (I’m sure our mids and fwds will get better as they adapt to new gameplan though)
• fly tweaking the gameplan (which I’m sure will happen over the next 3 years).

Cats dominated centre clearance in the 4th. They had one clean shot at goal directly from centre clearance. Duncan was pushed wide and kicked a ripper. So when it counted most - one on one under 6-6-6 our defenders did their jobs, including Magden. Cats goals were mainly from repeat ins 50s, our inability to work the ball through the arcs and our fwds like Henry blazing to two on 1s instead of hitting up better options.

We only needed 3 goals in the 4th to win that game. Our mids and HFF line didn’t do their jobs and failed to execute. Bagging Magden for being out of position is ridiculous when our defence rebounded the cats inside 50s with aplomb the whole qtr only to see the ball ping back in because our mids and HFFs didn’t execute.

And something I didn’t put on Extreme Black and White - any dumb fu** blaming Magden for our loss is ******* clues less. Our mids did nothing. Our defence repelled ins50 after ins50. Our mids and HFF butchered every chance they got in the 4th. Look at Henry’s two key disposals in the 4th. The guy has no idea. Kicks to 2 on 1s deep. No composure and doesn’t see open fwds like Ginnovan 40 out in front with 6 mins to go

Pointing out Madgens defensive deficiencies is hardly blaming him directly for the loss. Everyone here is well aware of why we were overrun in the 4th. Madgen was a part of that reason though, and consistently makes the same mistakes every week.
Henry is cut some slack because he has a handful of games to his name, and should get better with more experience. Madge is experienced enough to know better than to make the basic defensive errors he constantly makes, which is why he cops so much criticism.

Btw, it’s hilarious that a forum nerd thinks he has a better grasp on game analysis than one of the best, if not the best coach of the past 20 years to not win a flag. Gave me a good laugh, so thx for that.