Rumour The St Kilda debt situation - no more tick

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Saints43 said:
So back to the original conversation? Great. You'll be delighted to know that St Kilda will pay off their debt and return to profitability, although how it affects you I'm f’ed if I know.


But seeing as you love history so much... Are you old enough to remember Carlton initiating merger talks with St Kilda? We knocked you back. What a whore of a club Carlton is.

"The Blues, one of the league's biggest players during the 1990s under Elliott, were keen to do a deal after an initial attempt to merge with North failed during the early part of that decade.

And with champion players like Tony Lockett, Nicky Winmar, Stewart Loewe and Robert Harvey lining up for the Saints at the time, Elliott said he was trying to create a football powerhouse.

"North wanted to merge with us and Bob Ansett stymied that," said Elliott, referring to the former Kangaroos president.

"We then went on and talked with St Kilda 'cause we could see that by merging two clubs, you're really going to put yourself in a position where you win a few premierships.

"Anyway the St Kilda one fell away," he added.

"We spent most of the season talking with the St Kilda president (Andrew Plympton), I did, very quietly and It wasn't going to be a takeover, it was going to be a merger."

I think "biggest players" means "cheats" in the context of the '90s.
Click to expand...

Elliots entire plan for the VFL was centred around mergers and club rationalisation in Victoria while expanding interstate - and he tried to practice what he preached. He tried with the Saints, but that fell down when the Blues won the flag, he famously tried to buy Norths shares, and even in 1999 he was trying to get North into bed, but the fact both teams made it to the granny that year put the kibosh on that. After that the league had stopped supporting mergers and such and moved on and so did he.
 
The_Wookie said:
Elliots entire plan for the VFL was centred around mergers and club rationalisation in Victoria while expanding interstate - and he tried to practice what he preached. He tried with the Saints, but that fell down when the Blues won the flag, he famously tried to buy Norths shares, and even in 1999 he was trying to get North into bed, but the fact both teams made it to the granny that year put the kibosh on that. After that the league had stopped supporting mergers and such and moved on and so did he.
Click to expand...
"Elliots entire plan for the VFL"? Haha. He was a drunk, corporate fraudster who was the president of a single club.
Who gives a * what his plans for the league were?
He tried to merge Carlton with St Kilda and St Kilda knocked Carlton back.
 

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Saints43 said:
"Elliots entire plan for the VFL"? Haha. He was a drunk, corporate fraudster who was the president of a single club.
Who gives a fu** what his plans for the league were?
He tried to merge Carlton with St Kilda and St Kilda knocked Carlton back.
Click to expand...

You need to learn some things about Elliot and what he was up to in the mid 80s. Everyone gave a * then and it was a prime reason the league changed.
 
I
Saints43 said:
Righto. Let us know how this alcoholic, confidence trickster, incarcerated fraudster put his imprint on the national game from the Carlton boardroom.
Click to expand...
I'm no fan of Elliot but you really have no idea how things could have turned out.

Perhaps start here:
www.theage.com.au

‘We were ready to go’: When the VFL faced its own rebel league challenge

Secret meetings, dissatisfaction with the league: this is the story of John Elliott’s bid to split from the VFL in the 1980s, which he says shaped the AFL as it is today.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
 
Saints43 said:
Righto. Let us know how this alcoholic, confidence trickster, incarcerated fraudster put his imprint on the national game from the Carlton boardroom.
Click to expand...

Rightio.

  • 1984 – September 4. Meeting of club representatives organised by John Elliot and Ian Collins proposing the setting up of a new national competition, with financial conditions set, and clubs to be invited from WA and SA. SA is uninterested, but interest from WA was reported as warm. 11 VFL club presidents are reported in favour (Geelongs president wasnt present).
  • 1984 – September 13. The WAFL says its ready to join the VFL, but wants composite teams not individuals. Elliot was reported to have talked to Swan District and Claremont. The SANFL condemned the VFL for keeping it in the dark.
  • 1984 – September 12. John Elliot presents his plan to the VFL board at an emergency meeting “noting that his material had input from the Collingwood president, Ranald Macdonald, and “other club representatives” (The Phoenix Rises pg 23)

Rebellion in the Ranks - The Story of the VFL Breakaway that almost was - Sports Industry AU

In 1984, John Elliot was concerned. As the Carlton delegate to the VFL all he could see was delegates interested
www.footyindustry.com www.footyindustry.com

In 1984, John Elliot was concerned. As the Carlton delegate to the VFL all he could see was delegates interested in how things affected their individual clubs. He was dismayed at the overall lack of direction for the VFL itself. Nothing of value was done during the delegate meetings, deals were done outside them, and Elliot felt that the bigger clubs – Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and Richmond were left out in the cold on far too many matters, where the VFL executive could get by with the other 8 clubs.

At the end of each season, the leagues income would be divided equally amongst all the VFL clubs. Elliot found himself wondering why the leagues better drawing clubs werent recieving more of the income,

League football was in disarray. Eight clubs were believed to be treading a very fine line indeed on their solvency, a fact which prompted a warning from the Corporate Affairs Commission. The league itself was spending more than it earned by 2 million a year.

Elliot concluded that something had to be done, and after discussing the matter with Ian Collins decided that the only way around the Leagues incompetence was to break away.

The first thing was to ensure the competition would have somewhere to play – In 1984 the VFL had no contracts over the MCG, Princes Park or Kardinia Park, and could only prevent the competition from using Waverly Park, owned then by the VFL.

Elliot and Collins hatched a plan – the new league had to have an independent board of management, and would go nationwide by adding two clubs from each of WA and SA along with the Swans. Current VFL clubs could join but had to meet certain financial criteria, which more than half a dozen of the clubs would not have been able to meet.

Michael Standish, Elders corporate lawyer was consulted and advised that he felt quite positively that the competition could break away from the VFL.

Elliot then approached Ranald Mcdonald, then president of Collingwood and Greg Sewell, then Essendon president, and both were very warm to the idea. These three and Collins and Standish formed a committee. Standish drew up a proper constitution.

Collins was sent to South Australia and Western Australia to gauge interest. Elliot notes that while WA was quite positive, the South Australians were more guarded- wanting to be involved, but not wanting to be leaders of the developing competition.

Elliot then approached Richmond president Ian Willson who was also keen on the idea. Bob Ansett was the last of the club presidents/businessmen to be consulted, and wanted assurances that North Melbourne would be included if he supported it. Hawthorn would be wanted in the cabal, but no one wanted to talk to Hawks president Ron Cook, as he was very close to the men at VFL House.

Collins would write a 48 page report entitled “A proposal for reconstructing the existing competition to make it viable for the long term”.

By mid 1984, the Committee was ready to explain the proposal to the rest of the league – but the clubs first, and not the VFL which had launched its own subcommittee to address its own issues and was run by John Kennedy.

Elliot wrote a memorandum – the 5 leading Melbourne clubs would form the nucleaus of a new 12 team breakaway league, joined by two from SA, two from WA and Sydney, leaving two spots for the remaining 6 in Melbourne. The Committee wanted Geelong as a strong regional representative, but the other 5 were financial wrecks. Eventually, while the presentation ideally wanted 12 teams, they were prepared to go to 14, if financially sound. Each club that applied to join would have to have at least $250,000 in assets – and the ability to maintain that.

Matches would be played all through the weekend – Friday to Monday to make it more attractive to television

Projections of the finances for the new league expected revenues 15-20% higher than the VFL earnt in 1983.

The fateful meeting was held at Elders property at Sefton, Mt Macedon, on 4th September 1984, with all clubs represented. Ron Joseph represented North in Ansetts stead, while DIck Seddon replaced Melbournes president. Many were skeptical because it seemed like a Carlton idea, and the VFL clubs were always wary of each others plans. Elliot concluded that the league had no choice – either go national or stay as it was, but if it chose the latter, then the Victorian Competition Commission would have a very large say in how many clubs were left, and very soon.

The next morning Ian Collins rang Elliot to tell Elliot that after lengthy discussions with Seddon and Joseph on the drive back to Melbourne, he thought that the plan needed to be presented to the VFL executive so they didnt get the wrong idea, and so they could have a chance to enact the plan themselves. Elliot notes he was skeptical but did feel it was the right thing to do.

Shortly after, Collins and Elliot met with Aylett and Hamilton to outline the proposal. Aylett was evidently irritated – not least because he already had a committee looking at these things, but faced with the support of the big clubs and the prepartion already in hand, in the end could see that he had to deal with it and the rebels were given the chance to brief the VFL committee on September 12.

On October 1, the VFL strategy committee presented a report that included the major parts of the rebel proposal – a national competition run by an independent commission and a full time CEO. Elliot was delighted with the recommendations.

  • Big Jack – My Sporting Life – “From VFL to AFL” – pg 42-49
  • Football Limited – “A Legion of Sworn Enemies” – pg 17-35
  • The Phoenix Rises – “Death Watch” –
 
The_Wookie said:
Rightio.

  • 1984 – September 4. Meeting of club representatives organised by John Elliot and Ian Collins proposing the setting up of a new national competition, with financial conditions set, and clubs to be invited from WA and SA. SA is uninterested, but interest from WA was reported as warm. 11 VFL club presidents are reported in favour (Geelongs president wasnt present).
  • 1984 – September 13. The WAFL says its ready to join the VFL, but wants composite teams not individuals. Elliot was reported to have talked to Swan District and Claremont. The SANFL condemned the VFL for keeping it in the dark.
  • 1984 – September 12. John Elliot presents his plan to the VFL board at an emergency meeting “noting that his material had input from the Collingwood president, Ranald Macdonald, and “other club representatives” (The Phoenix Rises pg 23)

Rebellion in the Ranks - The Story of the VFL Breakaway that almost was - Sports Industry AU

In 1984, John Elliot was concerned. As the Carlton delegate to the VFL all he could see was delegates interested
www.footyindustry.com www.footyindustry.com

In 1984, John Elliot was concerned. As the Carlton delegate to the VFL all he could see was delegates interested in how things affected their individual clubs. He was dismayed at the overall lack of direction for the VFL itself. Nothing of value was done during the delegate meetings, deals were done outside them, and Elliot felt that the bigger clubs – Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood and Richmond were left out in the cold on far too many matters, where the VFL executive could get by with the other 8 clubs.

At the end of each season, the leagues income would be divided equally amongst all the VFL clubs. Elliot found himself wondering why the leagues better drawing clubs werent recieving more of the income,

League football was in disarray. Eight clubs were believed to be treading a very fine line indeed on their solvency, a fact which prompted a warning from the Corporate Affairs Commission. The league itself was spending more than it earned by 2 million a year.

Elliot concluded that something had to be done, and after discussing the matter with Ian Collins decided that the only way around the Leagues incompetence was to break away.

The first thing was to ensure the competition would have somewhere to play – In 1984 the VFL had no contracts over the MCG, Princes Park or Kardinia Park, and could only prevent the competition from using Waverly Park, owned then by the VFL.

Elliot and Collins hatched a plan – the new league had to have an independent board of management, and would go nationwide by adding two clubs from each of WA and SA along with the Swans. Current VFL clubs could join but had to meet certain financial criteria, which more than half a dozen of the clubs would not have been able to meet.

Michael Standish, Elders corporate lawyer was consulted and advised that he felt quite positively that the competition could break away from the VFL.

Elliot then approached Ranald Mcdonald, then president of Collingwood and Greg Sewell, then Essendon president, and both were very warm to the idea. These three and Collins and Standish formed a committee. Standish drew up a proper constitution.

Collins was sent to South Australia and Western Australia to gauge interest. Elliot notes that while WA was quite positive, the South Australians were more guarded- wanting to be involved, but not wanting to be leaders of the developing competition.

Elliot then approached Richmond president Ian Willson who was also keen on the idea. Bob Ansett was the last of the club presidents/businessmen to be consulted, and wanted assurances that North Melbourne would be included if he supported it. Hawthorn would be wanted in the cabal, but no one wanted to talk to Hawks president Ron Cook, as he was very close to the men at VFL House.

Collins would write a 48 page report entitled “A proposal for reconstructing the existing competition to make it viable for the long term”.

By mid 1984, the Committee was ready to explain the proposal to the rest of the league – but the clubs first, and not the VFL which had launched its own subcommittee to address its own issues and was run by John Kennedy.

Elliot wrote a memorandum – the 5 leading Melbourne clubs would form the nucleaus of a new 12 team breakaway league, joined by two from SA, two from WA and Sydney, leaving two spots for the remaining 6 in Melbourne. The Committee wanted Geelong as a strong regional representative, but the other 5 were financial wrecks. Eventually, while the presentation ideally wanted 12 teams, they were prepared to go to 14, if financially sound. Each club that applied to join would have to have at least $250,000 in assets – and the ability to maintain that.

Matches would be played all through the weekend – Friday to Monday to make it more attractive to television

Projections of the finances for the new league expected revenues 15-20% higher than the VFL earnt in 1983.

The fateful meeting was held at Elders property at Sefton, Mt Macedon, on 4th September 1984, with all clubs represented. Ron Joseph represented North in Ansetts stead, while DIck Seddon replaced Melbournes president. Many were skeptical because it seemed like a Carlton idea, and the VFL clubs were always wary of each others plans. Elliot concluded that the league had no choice – either go national or stay as it was, but if it chose the latter, then the Victorian Competition Commission would have a very large say in how many clubs were left, and very soon.

The next morning Ian Collins rang Elliot to tell Elliot that after lengthy discussions with Seddon and Joseph on the drive back to Melbourne, he thought that the plan needed to be presented to the VFL executive so they didnt get the wrong idea, and so they could have a chance to enact the plan themselves. Elliot notes he was skeptical but did feel it was the right thing to do.

Shortly after, Collins and Elliot met with Aylett and Hamilton to outline the proposal. Aylett was evidently irritated – not least because he already had a committee looking at these things, but faced with the support of the big clubs and the prepartion already in hand, in the end could see that he had to deal with it and the rebels were given the chance to brief the VFL committee on September 12.

On October 1, the VFL strategy committee presented a report that included the major parts of the rebel proposal – a national competition run by an independent commission and a full time CEO. Elliot was delighted with the recommendations.

  • Big Jack – My Sporting Life – “From VFL to AFL” – pg 42-49
  • Football Limited – “A Legion of Sworn Enemies” – pg 17-35
  • The Phoenix Rises – “Death Watch” –
Click to expand...
He tried to take over football. Didn't. Tried to kill off some clubs. Didn't. Tried to merge Carlton with other clubs. Didn't.
Built a white elephant
Declared bankrupt.
Went to jail for fraud.
Publicly laughed about paying off rape victims.
What a legacy.
Chancer of the highest order.
 
Saints43 said:
He tried to take over football. Didn't. Tried to kill off some clubs. Didn't. Tried to merge Carlton with other clubs. Didn't.
Built a white elephant
Declared bankrupt.
Went to jail for fraud.
Publicly laughed about paying off rape victims.
What a legacy.
Chancer of the highest order.
Click to expand...
Lucky saints have such an untarnished history.....
 
sosos said:
Lucky saints have such an untarnished history.....
Click to expand...

images
 

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Red Bull said:
A takeover of the Saints …
You’re right, he’d have had to be drunk
All could’ve been avoided if the Saints were ever financial.
Some things never change though …
Click to expand...
Here's the already posted quote from the bloke who came to St Kilda cap in hand only to be rejected .
One more time for you, you dill.

"We spent most of the season talking with the St Kilda president (Andrew Plympton), I did, very quietly and It wasn't going to be a takeover, it was going to be a merger."
 
Saints43 said:
Here's the already posted quote from the bloke who came to St Kilda cap in hand only to be rejected .
One more time for you, you dill.

"We spent most of the season talking with the St Kilda president (Andrew Plympton), I did, very quietly and It wasn't going to be a takeover, it was going to be a merger."
Click to expand...

Of course it was, had nothing to do with just wanting your good players 🤣🤣
Your wretched club has been flyblown forever and a day.
Unpaid premiership heroes, 7c in the dollar schemes, it just goes on and on.
Shameless rabble and a shrine to failure …
 
Red Bull said:
Of course it was, had nothing to do with just wanting your good players
Your wretched club has been flyblown forever and a day.
Unpaid premiership heroes, 7c in the dollar schemes, it just goes on and on.
Shameless rabble and a shrine to failure …
Click to expand...
In the professional, equalised era (cheating excluded) Carlton would be the biggest underperformer of the Victorian clubs wouldn't they?
 
Red Bull said:
History is history brother … all of it.
Are you ashamed of your clubs ?
Click to expand...
No, I'm aware of it. The 1902 season doesn't affect me at all. Yet you posted a photo of your cup from then.
But you'd have to reckon the amateur/semi professional game isn't much of a guide, wouldn't you?
Look to when it got serious. And Carlton would be the worst in the state.
 
Saints43 said:
No, I'm aware of it. The 1902 season doesn't affect me at all. Yet you posted a photo of your cup from then.
But you'd have to reckon the amateur/semi professional game isn't much of a guide, wouldn't you?
Look to when it got serious. And Carlton would be the worst in the state.
Click to expand...

Well, we’re serious now i suppose and yep, yet again, the Saints are up to their eyeballs in debt.
That’s the topic here in this thread after all isn’t it.
I’ll leave you with it …
 
Red Bull said:
Well, we’re serious now i suppose and yep, yet again, the Saints are up to their eyeballs in debt.
That’s the topic here in this thread after all isn’t it.
I’ll leave you with it …
Click to expand...
Couldn't you have left it when I told you that our debt was guaranteed by our president?
We'll be debt free in a few of years and Carlton will still be the worst performed Victorian team in the professional era. Which is nice.
 
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