MRP / Trib. Marlion Pickett, Umpires and the MRO. What is going on here?

[Meteoric Rise]

It is a mix of upper body and head. Still enough contact to the head to be suspendable. There would probably also have been something in the medical report as well given Moore was down in the rooms for awhile afterwards

I differ on the amount of head contact, to me it looks negligible. But Moore being in the rooms can easily be explained by the doctor wanting to examine him given the force of the bump and the whiplash action. That part does not require Pickett to have contacted him forcefully to the head.

 

[k31th]

Helping out Meteoric Rise... pause it and play it frame by frame if you wish...


Onto this evidence:

I scraped the video from there and looking at it frame by frame:

1. The frame before impact


2. The impact frame (can see Moore's body already recoiling, but crucially his head has not moved)


3. Moore's head now turns as Marlion's body comes through... is it his shoulder or his back impacting the face/head or his is body just recoiling from the initial impact... hard to tell with the camera fore-shortening.


4. His head goes no further left and Moore falls further behind Marlion as the impact goes through his body.


5. Now Moore's head starts to go backwards and a bit left, but it's hard to tell if it's his entire body falling backwards/away at this time.


This sequence tells me the impact was mainly in the body and only a glancing blow if anything to his head. Seems to me to be a fair bump. That is debatable on "high contact", but if it's upheld I won't complain... but this is "low impact" every day of the week and should NOT garner a suspension, just a fine. RFC challenging it should either challenge the "medium impact" or the "rough conduct" charge-type and they should win on either case... But I thought the same of Case#1 in the OP, so who knows!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Helping out Meteoric Rise... pause it and play it frame by frame if you wish...


Onto this evidence:

I scraped the video from there and looking at it frame by frame:

1. The frame before impact
View attachment 1401557

2. The impact frame (can see Moore's body already recoiling, but crucially his head has not moved)
View attachment 1401559

3. Moore's head now turns as Marlion's body comes through... is it his shoulder or his back impacting the face/head or his is body just recoiling from the initial impact... hard to tell with the camera fore-shortening.
View attachment 1401561

4. His head goes no further left and Moore falls further behind Marlion as the impact goes through his body.
View attachment 1401562

5. Now Moore's head starts to go backwards and a bit left, but it's hard to tell if it's his entire body falling backwards/away at this time.
View attachment 1401563

This sequence tells me the impact was mainly in the body and only a glancing blow if anything to his head. Seems to me to be a fair bump. That is debatable on "high contact", but if it's upheld I won't complain... but this is "low impact" every day of the week and should NOT garner a suspension, just a fine. RFC challenging it should either challenge the "medium impact" or the "rough conduct" charge-type and they should win on either case... But I thought the same of Case#1 in the OP, so who knows!

Great work K3ith. I agree with all your description of what has happened here. There is a point at which any contact to the head is not significant enough to sustain a report in these type of incidents, and my thought is that is what the case was here.

The bump is legal in this situation. I would argue it should not be and you should have to shepherd by pushing or blocking with your arms, but that is a completely different argument. You are currently allowed to shepherd with a bump. Pickett has led with his hip then shoulder and almost all the force seems to have been taken by Moore’s body.

Interesting to see what the Tribunal makes of it. But one thing is for certain, the MRO has given Pickett, yet again, the worst possible penalty he could get from the incident.

Now after such sterling work here K3ith, we might need your take on the Zapruder footage frame by frame.

 

[nick1408]

It is a mix of upper body and head. Still enough contact to the head to be suspendable. There would probably also have been something in the medical report as well given Moore was down in the rooms for awhile afterwards

Didn't Moore also come back and play after being in the rooms? Going down to the rooms alone doesn't seem like it has any weight in the argument. If he failed a concussion test that is a different story.

I can't see Richmond winning this one unfortunately due to Edmund's stating that all high contacts are immediately deemed medium impact. If it could be downgraded to low then I think it would have been and an appeal wouldn't even be in the mix.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

I differ on the amount of head contact, to me it looks negligible. But Moore being in the rooms can easily be explained by the doctor wanting to examine him given the force of the bump and the whiplash action. That part does not require Pickett to have contacted him forcefully to the head.

I thought a whiplash action moves the head in the opposite direction to the force (at least initially). The only head movement I can see is in the same direction as the force. Looks like the result of contact to me. But I'm not a doctor.

 

[HairyO]

That to me does possibly show some head contact. Would you agree Moore’s body action is consistent with being hit hard to the torso and the main thing making his head jolt back is a whiplash type action? There does not seem to be any significant force by Pickett to the head of Moore imo.

He got hit in the head in a bump. It should be a week. But the way the Tribunal works, Moore wasnt really hurt, so there is a high likelihood of it being downgraded to Low impact and just a fine.

Even though it absolutely deserves 1 week.

Didn't Moore also come back and play after being in the rooms? Going down to the rooms alone doesn't seem like it has any weight in the argument. If he failed a concussion test that is a different story.

I can't see Richmond winning this one unfortunately due to Edmund's stating that all high contacts are immediately deemed medium impact. If it could be downgraded to low then I think it would have been and an appeal wouldn't even be in the mix.

If Moore was concussed it would be High or Severe, not Medium.

I dont think all high contact is Medium. But all high contact which does enough for a player to leave the ground starts at Medium.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I thought a whiplash action moves the head in the opposite direction to the force (at least initially). The only head movement I can see is in the same direction as the force. Looks like the result of contact to me. But I'm not a doctor.

View attachment 1401628

Could it be his head initially moved towards Pickett witht he force of the bump crumpling his body and then the whiplash effect moves his head in the opposite direction, ie away from impact?

I don’t know, I am sure they will argue about all this at the Tribunal, so we might get a better line on it there, including some expert opinion possibly.

 

[k31th]

Tried to time-synchronize and picture-in-picture the 25fps footage (my original GIF is in 50fps) Take from it what you willl:

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Could it be his head initially moved towards Pickett witht he force of the bump crumpling his body and then the whiplash effect moves his head in the opposite direction, ie away from impact?

I don’t know, I am sure they will argue about all this at the Tribunal, so we might get a better line on it there, including some expert opinion possibly.

I don't see his head move towards Pickett at all, but it all happens pretty fast.
Re the tribunal, yep - I reckon we'll hear from all sorts of bio-mechanics boffins on this one.

 

[k31th]

Dylan Moore
92% time on ground
more than 39 of the other players in the game.
the 5 that had more were all big KPP
frost, sicily, biggie, lewis, lynch

I saw that stat. SO he couldn't have been put thru the concussion protocols...that would have used up more time than he had off the ground.

Probably relevant to this thread ^^

 

[Blackhawk42]

I'm amazed (but probably shouldn't be) at how many Richmond supporters are adamant no head contact was made here. I saw this incident once (not live) and immediately thought 'that's a week suspension and I'm surprised Moorey played out the whole game'.

BUT, he was okay.

So does it come down to outcome? If it's as simple as 'did he elect to bump and subsequently make head contact' then it's pretty cut and dry to me. If they want to include the fact that Dylan was okay and played out the game then he could get off.

 

[tropicaltiger]

Didn't Moore also come back and play after being in the rooms? Going down to the rooms alone doesn't seem like it has any weight in the argument. If he failed a concussion test that is a different story.

I can't see Richmond winning this one unfortunately due to Edmund's stating that all high contacts are immediately deemed medium impact. If it could be downgraded to low then I think it would have been and an appeal wouldn't even be in the mix.

moore played 92% match time only 5 big KKP spent more time on the ground.

dosent seem like something that would happen if you were smashed in the head with a solid bump

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I'm amazed (but probably shouldn't be) at how many Richmond supporters are adamant no head contact was made here. I saw this incident once (not live) and immediately thought 'that's a week suspension and I'm surprised Moorey played out the whole game'.

BUT, he was okay.

So does it come down to outcome? If it's as simple as 'did he elect to bump and subsequently make head contact' then it's pretty cut and dry to me. If they want to include the fact that Dylan was okay and played out the game then he could get off.

I think most of us didn’t think there was head contact with the first footage we had available. And most Richmond supporters on seeing the front on footage have moved to either certain head contact or possible head contact.

To me this is both the correct use of the bump and the correct technique, ie hip first then shoulder to the body. It If forceful contact is made to the head then fair enough a week is ok. But there seems to be no forceful head contact, and if Pickett had gone with a worse technique there likely would have been. The ball was in dispute and within 5 metres and Moore was looking to contest the ball rather than just chase an opponent. So to me, on reflection, this is not the sort of correctly executed side bump we want taken out of the game.

 

[BF Tiger]

How long does a concussion test take? I seem to remember it being 20 minutes minimum.

If Moore only missed 8% game time in a game that went for 130 minutes that amounts to about 10 minutes. (The incident happened with 13:40 left in the quarter, that is about a third of the way through the quarter, and the quarter went for over 34 minutes. That makes me think that if he had a concussion test it didn’t run in to half time).

 

[nick1408]

How long does a concussion test take? I seem to remember it being 20 minutes minimum.

If Moore only missed 8% game time in a game that went for 130 minutes that amounts to about 10 minutes. (The incident happened with 13:40 left in the quarter, that is about a third of the way through the quarter, and the quarter went for over 34 minutes. That makes me think that if he had a concussion test it didn’t run in to half time).

Is there anywhere the general public can find a timesheet of interchanges for any given match?

 

[SSwans2011]

To be perfectly honest, it just looks like a regulation 1-weeker to me.

Shame he misses the Dreamtime match, but I'm not at all shocked from watching that footage. Looks like there's contact to the head, albeit minor, to me.

 

[Sttew]

Take your conflict of interest thoughts to the conflict of interest threads Sttew.

But the 3 decisions in this thread are all effectively made by Steve Hocking and Brad Scott. What is going on with the MRO and Marlion in your opinion?

No idea. Richmond’s contesting the charge so the evidence will be reviewed by an independent body. Let’s wait and see. I’m not a conspiracy theorist

 

[HairyO]

Helping out Meteoric Rise... pause it and play it frame by frame if you wish...


Onto this evidence:

I scraped the video from there and looking at it frame by frame:

1. The frame before impact
View attachment 1401557

2. The impact frame (can see Moore's body already recoiling, but crucially his head has not moved)
View attachment 1401559

3. Moore's head now turns as Marlion's body comes through... is it his shoulder or his back impacting the face/head or his is body just recoiling from the initial impact... hard to tell with the camera fore-shortening.
View attachment 1401561

4. His head goes no further left and Moore falls further behind Marlion as the impact goes through his body.
View attachment 1401562

5. Now Moore's head starts to go backwards and a bit left, but it's hard to tell if it's his entire body falling backwards/away at this time.
View attachment 1401563

This sequence tells me the impact was mainly in the body and only a glancing blow if anything to his head. Seems to me to be a fair bump. That is debatable on "high contact", but if it's upheld I won't complain... but this is "low impact" every day of the week and should NOT garner a suspension, just a fine. RFC challenging it should either challenge the "medium impact" or the "rough conduct" charge-type and they should win on either case... But I thought the same of Case#1 in the OP, so who knows!

A fair bump has to have zero contact to the head. Also, you can clearly see Moore gets hit fairly solidly in the head in your screenshots. If the Tigers use this as their defence then Pickett gets the week.

What they really need to say is that the Tribunal always downgrade when the player isnt badly hurt therefore it needs to be classed Low impact and a fine.

That is the story the Tribunal often believes.

I think most of us didn’t think there was head contact with the first footage we had available.

It was clearly a head hit at the time. It was talked about. And then at the next break it was reviewed in slow motion and the comment was that it would be 1 week.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

A fair bump has to have zero contact to the head. Also, you can clearly see Moore gets hit fairly solidly in the head in your screenshots. If the Tigers use this as their defence then Pickett gets the week.

What they really need to say is that the Tribunal always downgrade when the player isnt badly hurt therefore it needs to be classed Low impact and a fine.

That is the story the Tribunal often believes.



It was clearly a head hit at the time. It was talked about. And then at the next break it was reviewed in slow motion and the comment was that it would be 1 week.

I would just make 2 points here.

1. It would not be true that any contact to the head at all would render a bump unfair. As with high contact free kicks, there is a threshhold below which the contact is not significant enough to trigger a penalty.

2. When you say it was clearly a head hit at the time, I have now looked at the various angles loads of times and it is not clear the level of contact with the head or even if there was any significant contact. So when you say it was clear at the time, it can only have been clear to people who jump to conclusions.

I will be interested to see Richmond’s and the AFL’s arguments at the tribunal. From what I have seen I would say it is likely that Pickett made discernible contact with Moore’s head, but I would be arguing it was not contact of significant enough force to warrant a report. It will be interesting to see if Moore or the Hawks doctor give evidence what they say. If they say he felt moderate or higher impact to the head it is probably clear Pickett would cop the week.

 

[HairyO]

I would just make 2 points here.

1. It would not be true that any contact to the head at all would render a bump unfair. As with high contact free kicks, there is a threshhold below which the contact is not significant enough to trigger a penalty.

2. When you say it was clearly a head hit at the time, I have now looked at the various angles loads of times and it is not clear the level of contact with the head or even if there was any significant contact. So when you say it was clear at the time, it can only have been clear to people who jump to conclusions.

I will be interested to see Richmond’s and the AFL’s arguments at the tribunal. From what I have seen I would say it is likely that Pickett made discernible contact with Moore’s head, but I would be arguing it was not contact of significant enough force to warrant a report. It will be interesting to see if Moore or the Hawks doctor give evidence what they say. If they say he felt moderate or higher impact to the head it is probably clear Pickett would cop the week.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-tightens-rules-on-headhigh-bumps-as-players-risk-lengthy-suspensions/news-story/c5ac6c4ef0184f7632eb82746e41b80c

Starts at Medium, not Low. They no longer consider incidental head contact as a reason to downgrade or dismiss.

If you choose to bump and hit high you pay the price.

Which is how it should be.

 

[Roachy8]

 

[LordLucifer]

WTF is happening to our game ??

If I didn't shepherd a team-mate, my coach would tear me a new one at the next break !!!

There was no malice in that, it was a genuine hip & shoulder, not a shirt-front.

I'd like to see every Collingwood, Essendon & Richmond player rubbed out for life but FFS, that is not a suspendable action !!

 

[k31th]

Which is how it should be.

This is a disputable point. But beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[theyellowsash]

Not gonna buy into any anti pickett conspiracies.

But the fact that pickett and rowebottom got the same as Ryan (and the Melbourne player more for a fair tackle) is an absolute farce and is proof the current system does not fundamentally have the ability to produce fair and consistent results.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

WTF is happening to our game ??

If I didn't shepherd a team-mate, my coach would tear me a new one at the next break !!!

There was no malice in that, it was a genuine hip & shoulder, not a shirt-front.

I'd like to see every Collingwood, Essendon & Richmond player rubbed out for life but FFS, that is not a suspendable action !!

It's ****ed isn't it.

Haven't been to a game all year and don't plan on with the rubbish they're enforcing on us. Completely lost sight of what makes this game special.