The utensil up that is the east coast energy market

[dockerfemme]

All Victoria's coal plants are privately owned, and the owners want to shut them down earlier than they previously forecast.

What do you want the state to do? Follow what they proposed in NSW and donate hundreds of millions to the company to keep it open for 5 extra years?

At this point there may be little option. There probably has to be a period of 10 years or more where the coal fired power stations are seriously uneconomic with the the pricing mechanisms on the NEM. They are still needed however.

My understanding is some other countries use similar pricing mechanisms to the NEM. This mechanism maximises wind and solar and makes it hard for coal to compete. A lot of countries use a different pricing mechanism which include capacity payments, a payment for guaranteeing power supply at some time frame in the future. This is not favourable for wind and solar who cannot guarantee power supply at any point in time.

In my eyes, the problem is due to a failure to plan realistically. The set up of privatised power generators and the bureaucracy of multiple bodies and states to run the NEM make a complex transition even more complex.

I cannot see how the Labour Party policy of spending 20 billion on transmission upgrades gets round the problem of the coal fired power stations being uneconomic. It may keep the problem to 10 years or a bit under, whereas the Coalition approach of meandering along may have made the problem last 15 years or more. The problem still exists however and has to be addressed.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

At this point there may be little option. There probably has to be a period of 10 years or more where the coal fired power stations are seriously uneconomic with the the pricing mechanisms on the NEM. They are still needed however.

My understanding is some other countries use similar pricing mechanisms to the NEM. This mechanism maximises wind and solar and makes it hard for coal to compete. A lot of countries use a different pricing mechanism which include capacity payments, a payment for guaranteeing power supply at some time frame in the future. This is not favourable for wind and solar who cannot guarantee power supply at any point in time.

In my eyes, the problem is due to a failure to plan realistically. The set up of privatised power generators and the bureaucracy of multiple bodies and states to run the NEM make a complex transition even more complex.

I cannot see how the Labour Party policy of spending 20 billion on transmission upgrades gets round the problem of the coal fired power stations being uneconomic. It may keep the problem to 10 years or a bit under, whereas the Coalition approach of meandering along may have made the problem last 15 years or more. The problem still exists however and has to be addressed.

you need to look at California to see the issue. Private energy providers have no incentive to oversupply, and have massive profit incentives to short deliver

this happened with the SA blackout. For all the freaking over renewables being the cause, the coal plant had one of its turbines shut down for the bulk of the time. Why? Because the higher margin they earnt off the smaller volume delivered a higher profit than if they turned the turbine on, oversupplied the market, and margins significantly narrowed.

The first step to any energy solution in this country has to be the nationalization of large scale power generation and distribution.

 

[dockerfemme]

you need to look at California to see the issue. Private energy providers have no incentive to oversupply, and have massive profit incentives to short deliver

this happened with the SA blackout. For all the freaking over renewables being the cause, the coal plant had one of its turbines shut down for the bulk of the time. Why? Because the higher margin they earnt off the smaller volume delivered a higher profit than if they turned the turbine on, oversupplied the market, and margins significantly narrowed.

The first step to any energy solution in this country has to be the nationalization of large scale power generation and distribution.

That is an interesting take on things. I am in WA and am glad we have not privatised power generation.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

That is an interesting take on things. I am in WA and am glad we have not privatised power generation.

its something that we really didnt anticipate with privatization, but its actually pretty simple to understand

we "need" 100% of required power at any time. If we supply 110% of this, the surplus means there is pressure to keep prices down to make sure the distributors buy from you. There is also no incentive to increase supply to 130% because it will drop price pressure even more.

however, if you supply 98%, the world changes. people are potentially having brownouts, so the distributors will kill themselves to make sure they are not the peeps stuck with the shortfall, and prices explode.

FWIW I also think states need to hand power of generation and supply over to canberra (esp for everyone outside WA). reality is the days of states being able to be stand alone bubbles are gone (as we are seeing now with gas)

 

[Kwality]

All Victoria's coal plants are privately owned, and the owners want to shut them down earlier than they previously forecast.

What do you want the state to do? Follow what they proposed in NSW and donate hundreds of millions to the company to keep it open for 5 extra years?

The States need to accept it is their responsibility to generate electricity. So Vic has abandoned that responsibility by selling it off, just dont blame the Feds.

How do they fix it, build more capacity, as they do other infrastructure.

 

[Kwality]

This is a perfect opportunity for the Commonwealth to be a major share holder in the new renewables sector with the wealth created coming back to all Australians.

With Gas; Nationalise the ****s!

Again, look at the North West Shelf & how that State is in the position it is today. Just dont blame the Feds.

 

[Kwality]

The utensil up is that we, that is Australia, have given our resources over to the privates that have made billions and continue to make billions for the rich and well to do from what belongs to all of us.

It was Menzies that privatised the Commonwealth Oil Refinery and then gave massive taxpayer subsidies to the mob he sold it to, the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company which became the British Petroleum Company.

One need only look to Norway to see what resources remaining in public hands means to a Nation.

What a dismal attempt at blaming someone else, more usually the other mob, & adding a FAT ZERO to fiixing it.

This quote does nothing for looking forward :Union wants national gas reserve
Its a irrelevant to the current utensil up !

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The States need to accept it is their responsibility to generate electricity. So Vic has abandoned that responsibility by selling it off, just dont blame the Feds.

How do they fix it, build more capacity, as they do other infrastructure.

FFS do you actually read? Im not blaming the feds.

I said we should to two things:

1) nationalize all commercial power generation and distribution

2) states agree to hand all powers in energy and energy distribution to the feds

that said, this will never happen because the private sector is superior to govt, and nationalization is evil socialism

 

[Kwality]

FFS do you actually read? Im not blaming the feds.

I said we should to two things:

1) nationalize all commercial power generation and distribution

2) states agree to hand all powers in energy and energy distribution to the feds

that said, this will never happen because the private sector is superior to govt, and nationalization is evil socialism

Lovely. Why would WA agree to this, nationalise it - its our utensil up here, & we should man up & recognise our current settings arent going to fix the problem. That problem being keeping the lights on, not to mention all the jobs that rely on it.
As for the bible of ideology ....

Though Ned, you are spot on to point to distribution as equally problematic, not to mention the power retailers that will be the scapegoats for the State Governments that have enabled this snafu.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Lovely. Why would WA agree to this, nationalise it - its our utensil up here, & we should man up & recognise our current settings arent going to fix the problem. That problem being keeping the lights on, not to mention all the jobs that rely on it.
As for the bible of ideology ....

Though Ned, you are spot on to point to distribution as equally problematic, not to mention the power retailers that will be the scapegoats for the State Governments that have enabled this snafu.

FFS you really do not read... I actually said WA was the one state to potentially exclude from this because their energy arrangements are not integrated

 

[Kwality]

FFS you really do not read... I actually said WA was the one state to potentially exclude from this because their energy arrangements are not integrated

So its not nationalised. Another MDBA ....with or without teeth? What do they aim to resolve & in what time frame?

The timeline is the key, deliverables that 'keep the lights on".

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So its not nationalised. Another MDBA ....with or without teeth? What do they aim to resolve & in what time frame?

The timeline is the key, deliverables that 'keep the lights on".

by nationalization I am talking the fed's compulsoraly acquiring the assets. Just as they would choose not to take over peoples rooftop solar or community batteries, they could choose to exclude WA as its not part of the national grid

again, learn to read

 

[Ned_Flanders]

anyway Kwality what is your solution to keep coal a chugging, given AGL and Origin are both looking at ending their plants lives early (due in part to market pricing, but significantly due to the rapid deterioration in the reliability of the aging plants)?

do you want subsidies to coal power generators?

 

[QuietB]

What would we get first - nuclear power or nuclear submarines?

Talking about nuclear does not really answer our short term requirements.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

What would we get first - nuclear power or nuclear submarines?

Talking about nuclear does not really answer our short term requirements.

power is possible if the current pilot projects for the micro reactors in canada and (i think) china prove commercial viability.

this is australia though, so it will probably be the sub because it will take just 20 years to decide where it will be based (look how long the waste storage facility farce has been going)

 

[Kwality]

anyway Kwality what is your solution to keep coal a chugging, given AGL and Origin are both looking at ending their plants lives early (due in part to market pricing, but significantly due to the rapid deterioration in the reliability of the aging plants)?

do you want subsidies to coal power generators?

Methinks you know maintenance is cheaper than repair in the long run.
The question is how long. You can only patch up equipment for so long before it is no longer a viable proposition.

My interest has always been the reality over aspiration. Reality being keeping the lights on, & the jobs hanging off the need for 24/7 power, not just the mining/transport/export of coal &/or gas.

I dont have the answers, I'm happy to pick the brains of those who do know. That why I used 'utensil up' in this thread.

The question of what we subsidise is so politicised unfortunately I'm not sure we even know what a subsidy is anymore.
So forget that word & ask how we keep the lights on (lights in a generic sense) until renewables have the dispatchible capacity & grid to do the job, preferable returning Australia to a low cost, reliable place to attract manufacturing & on shore processing of our mineral wealth.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Methinks you know maintenance is cheaper than repair in the long run.
The question is how long. You can only patch up equipment for so long before it is no longer a viable proposition.

My interest has always been the reality over aspiration. Reality being keeping the lights on, & the jobs hanging off the need for 24/7 power, not just the mining/transport/export of coal &/or gas.

I dont have the answers, I'm happy to pick the brains of those who do know. That why I used 'utensil up' in this thread.

The question of what we subsidise is so politicised unfortunately I'm not sure we even know what a subsidy is anymore.
So forget that word & ask how we keep the lights on (lights in a generic sense) until renewables have the dispatchible capacity & grid to do the job, preferable returning Australia to a low cost, reliable place to attract manufacturing & on shore processing of our mineral wealth.

so you bag everything but fossil fuels, but you dont know how fossil fuels can solve the problem?

 

[Kwality]

so you bag everything but fossil fuels, but you dont know how fossil fuels can solve the problem?

Your description, not mine.
The 24/7 problem or the global warming problem ?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Your description, not mine.
The 24/7 problem or the global warming problem ?

start with the former

you spam about the awesomeness of coal and gas, but you do so without knowing how they will support us????

 

[mill204]

As each day goes by my admiration for Sen Patrick grows.

 

[Kwality]

start with the former

you spam about the awesomeness of coal and gas, but you do so without knowing how they will support us????

Spam ... .... we know what we've got from all the sources of power, the strengths & the weaknesses.
We know there is a problem NOW on the east coast, aka the utensil up.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Spam ... .... we know what we've got from all the sources of power, the strengths & the weaknesses.
We know there is a problem NOW on the east coast, aka the utensil up.

you have done everything bar cuddle a lump of coal in parliament

 

[Kwality]

As each day goes by my admiration for Sen Patrick grows.

Senator Patrick has said it all before:

Gas reservation could bring down household electricity prices by $270, argues report

A new report estimates Australians could save up to $270 a year on their electricity bills, if the Federal Government introduced policy to reserve gas for the domestic market.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Kwality]

you have done everything bar cuddle a lump of coal in parliament

When you have nothing to say .... best shut up.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

When you have nothing to say .... best shut up.

this coming from the guy with daily I love coal bulletins, but cant say how coal will tangibly solve the current energy issues.