The utensil up that is the east coast energy market

[mellowyellow]

nah, his brother Donald

Age and memory have the better of me

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I know what I'm doing when I get home this weekend. My electricity bill per month is generally around the $120 to $150 per month mark, I've just received an email from my retailer and they tell me that based on our average usage, our bill be be going up by around $185 per month

 

[cartwright]

geez John Clarke is missed.

 

[JackFlash]

In China more than 240 Coal fired power sations are planned or already under construction, meanwhile we don't know if the lights will be on this weekend? Australia has 16 in the entire country. We need at least another 6 on the East Coast and pretty fast or go Nuclear!

 

[Demonic Ascent]

In China more than 240 Coal fired power sations are planned or already under construction, meanwhile we don't know if the lights will be on this weekend? Australia has 16 in the entire country. We need at least another 6 on the East Coast and pretty fast or go Nuclear!

China has about 50x the number of people as Australia.

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

As has been noted quite extensively, it is a market issue not a supply issue.

The regulator was established to mediate between industry disputes, not as a guarantor of the public interest.

Everything the Federal libs have done, or failed to do, simply reinforced this direction. Hence there are so few levers to pull when trying to stop price gouging, market cornering and withholding of supply.

 

[dockerfemme]

As has been noted quite extensively, it is a market issue not a supply issue.

The regulator was established to mediate between industry disputes, not as a guarantor of the public interest.

Everything the Federal libs have done, or failed to do, simply reinforced this direction. Hence there are so few levers to pull when trying to stop price gouging, market cornering and withholding of supply.

If you mean it is a market issue over the last several years, I agree with you. The design of the market has made the coal fired power stations uneconomic and the owners do not want to maintain them, leading to lack of reliability.

If you mean the problem of the last several days is a market issue, I don’t think that is right. There was a lack of supply of electricity due to a large number of coal fired power stations being offline for a variety of reasons. This then led to the market mechanisms failing, or going haywire or being manipulated or whatever.

 

[Dave]

If you mean it is a market issue over the last several years, I agree with you. The design of the market has made the coal fired power stations uneconomic and the owners do not want to maintain them, leading to lack of reliability.

If you mean the problem of the last several days is a market issue, I don’t think that is right. There was a lack of supply of electricity due to a large number of coal fired power stations being offline for a variety of reasons. This then led to the market mechanisms failing, or going haywire or being manipulated or whatever.

There was also capacity taken offline by generators because it wasn't profitable enough for them to provide it.

If anyone ever need evidence of why essential services shouldn't be privatised this was it.

Capitalist bastardry at it's worst.

 

[Gough]

There was also capacity taken offline by generators because it wasn't profitable enough for them to provide it.

If anyone ever need evidence of why essential services shouldn't be privatised this was it.

Capitalist bastardry at it's worst.

Not only that, they were subsidised billions to do precisely what they're not doing now.

 

[dockerfemme]

There was also capacity taken offline by generators because it wasn't profitable enough for them to provide it.

If anyone ever need evidence of why essential services shouldn't be privatised this was it.

Capitalist bastardry at it's worst.

I think that privatising was wrong. However, if they can’t make a profit then surely a reasonable expectation is that they don’t operate.

 

[Dave]

I think that privatising was wrong. However, if they can’t make a profit then surely a reasonable expectation is that they don’t operate.

It's an essential service. How is it reasonable it's not provided?

Edit: I also said that it wasn't profitable enough, not that they made no profit. Basically they saw an opportunity to gouge the market by withholding supply, which should be illegal.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I think that privatising was wrong. However, if they can’t make a profit then surely a reasonable expectation is that they don’t operate.

Is it that they couldn't make a profit? Or they couldn't make as much of a profit as they wanted?

 

[dockerfemme]

It's an essential service. How is it reasonable it's not provided?

If they are not meeting contractual requirements, then they are in the wrong and there should be repercussions. If they are meeting contractual requirements and are choosing not to supply, then this is because it is not profitable, or contracts are poorly designed or pricing mechanisms are poorly designed or whatever.

I am a pragmatist. I don’t like the privatisation that had occurred, but the situation is what it is, and it is necessary to come up with a way of getting thru the winter reliably, then the next few years, and so on.

 

[dockerfemme]

Is it that they couldn't make a profit? Or they couldn't make as much of a profit as they wanted?

I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t think it is overly relevant. If they are meeting contractual requirements, then they can do what they like. That is the NEM operation that has been established, rightly or wrongly.

The issues have to be fixed as best they can for this winter, the next few years and beyond that.

The first step is accepting that we start from here. We can’t go back 10 years and do things differently.

 

[HPKS]

There was also capacity taken offline by generators because it wasn't profitable enough for them to provide it.

If anyone ever need evidence of why essential services shouldn't be privatised this was it.

Capitalist bastardry at it's worst.

How good is trickle down

 

[Gough]

My dude has put an extra tenner on an ounce. Thanks ScoMo.

 

[HairyO]

It's an essential service. How is it reasonable it's not provided?

Edit: I also said that it wasn't profitable enough, not that they made no profit. Basically they saw an opportunity to gouge the market by withholding supply, which should be illegal.

They have been able to make massive profits. There should be a requirement that at least short term they wear the downturns. Because at some point they will be massively profitable again. They shouldnt be able to just say no whenever they want.

 

[Kwality]

I know what I'm doing when I get home this weekend. My electricity bill per month is generally around the $120 to $150 per month mark, I've just received an email from my retailer and they tell me that based on our average usage, our bill be be going up by around $185 per month

Heard Minister Ambrosio on Melbourne radio & she tells us she is going to a meeting next week.
Seems a brick manufacturing company in Stawell is closing its doors, cant afford its power bills, jobs ...

 

[Kwality]

There was also capacity taken offline by generators because it wasn't profitable enough for them to provide it.

If anyone ever need evidence of why essential services shouldn't be privatised this was it.

Capitalist bastardry at it's worst.

Expecting them to lose money is unrealistic too.

 

[Kwality]

I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t think it is overly relevant. If they are meeting contractual requirements, then they can do what they like. That is the NEM operation that has been established, rightly or wrongly.

The issues have to be fixed as best they can for this winter, the next few years and beyond that.

The first step is accepting that we start from here. We can’t go back 10 years and do things differently.

We've been at this point for some time, reliant on coal plants that are ageing.

List of coal-fired power stations in Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We know where the taxpayer dollars have been spent this century.

 

[Kwality]

We spent billions upgrading powerlines. Probably not needed if the power isnt on.

See where the money has been going:

ABC Rural

ABC Rural News provides authoritative coverage of the business and politics of Australian farming, livestock, forestry, agriculture and primary production

www.abc.net.au

2019-07-18/oil-and-gas-giant-eni-start-building-biggest-solar-farm-in-nt/11317072

ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Trusted and independent source of local, national and world news. In-depth analysis, business, sport, weather and more.

www.abc.net.au

2022-06-17/nt-solar-farms-idle-years-after-construction/101125000

So 3 years on there is solar capacity & no ability to turn the lights on.

This has been a common occurrence as we 'go balls & all' ...

 

[Kwality]

In China more than 240 Coal fired power sations are planned or already under construction, meanwhile we don't know if the lights will be on this weekend? Australia has 16 in the entire country. We need at least another 6 on the East Coast and pretty fast or go Nuclear!

This is a today problem - jobs are on the line without 24/7 capacity.

Albo/Bowen agree we can store water (dams*) & store energy (batteries) - when/how long versus a real solution

* we dont do that anymore though.

 

[hamohawk1]

This is the same issue at PT in Victoria. Private corps might be able try and make it more 'efficient' but they have no vested stake in the upgrade of infrastructure which is old, outdated and where real improvements can be made.

It's like giving Nadal a racquet from the 70's. His still likely able to smack a few opponents around and make some money but without current technology he isn't likely to reach the top.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Heard Minister Ambrosio on Melbourne radio & she tells us she is going to a meeting next week.
Seems a brick manufacturing company in Stawell is closing its doors, cant afford its power bills, jobs ...

I heard another on the radio on Wednesday I think. Plastics manufacturer, annual power bill in the millions which is going to increase astronomically to the point that it might force him to close the doors on 100s of employees. They've started working nightshifts instead of days because the power is cheaper. Said he has international rivals snapping at his heels and if he had to close for any length of time the business will be stuffed.

 

[Dave]

Expecting them to lose money is unrealistic too.

I didn't say I expected them to lose money, which in any event is a risk they took when they bought into the system.

It wasn't about losing money, it was about making more by being bastards.