Society/Culture Feminism - Pt III

[scoman]

Soooo many people desperately concerned about fairness for women. In women's sport.

CM was being facetious. Which is not a good way to kick off a conversation.

The only genuine people on these boards are you and those who agree with you. Is that about it? Funnily enough you shared similar views on protecting women's sport not that long ago until you were pulled into line.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Have to disagree. In general, women are still looked at as an underclass by too many men in western society.

My wife owns a business.

I asked her when we first met if she ever felt it was harder to get to that point where you are a female business owner in an industry with more male representation. She said (paraphrasing) 'no, at school we had it drilled into us that as women, we can achieve absolutely anything'.

I can tell you as a male that at school all I was told was 'If you aren't going to uni why are you even still here?' with the assumption being that I may as well be doing a trade. Probably a generalisation that as a bloke that's my fallback option. My interests in other areas weren't harnessed and I was never filled with 'the sky is the limit' encouragement.

Society has shifted massively.

My company offers full parental leave to expectant mothers or father's. I requested to be the primary carer when my son was born. I was only approved for 2 weeks of leave (also known as the 'Dad leave') despite my request. When I escalated to this to human recourses, the woman told me, and this is no word of a lie, 'you can't really breast feed obviously'.
I was then told I needed a statutory declaration from my wife saying she is going back to work and 'will be the secondary carer of her child'.
No female staff member was ever asked to provide of any this.

My second child is due soon and thankfully there has been no issue with my leave request this time.

I don't know why I wanted to get involved in here to be honest. I don't feel like a debate on any of this. I just believe we've reached the point of equality now where both men and women are being treated positively and negatively to a comparative degree.

 

[Chief]

The only genuine people on these boards are you and those who agree with you

Thanks buddy!

 

[Chief]

Funnily enough you shared similar views on protecting women's sport not that long ago until you were pulled into line.

Huh? You'll have to explain that if you want a response. You mean I read up on it and figured out I was on the wrong track?

One complaint is that "nobody changes their view based on what they read in SRP".

Surprise!!!!

 

[scoman]

Thanks buddy!

You're welcome friend.

 

[scoman]

Huh? You'll have to explain that if you want a response. You mean I read up on it and figured out I was on the wrong track?

One complaint is that "nobody changes their view based on what they read in SRP".

Surprise!!!!

Credit to you then if that is genuinely how you came to change your mind.

Edit: Does that mean you were some sort of 'right wing flog' prior to you educating yourself? I mean you were arguing the same thing as a lot of the posters you are now condemning are. Did your reading cover the same material as FINA? Are they also, then, a bunch of 'grifters and conservative flogs?'

Or is it possible the subject of transgender athletes in sport is quite complicated and those who don't want to see women's sport compromised are not necessarily the insincere types you so lazily call them out to be.

 

[Chief]

Edit: Does that mean you were some sort of 'right wing flog' prior to you educating yourself?

You know that the BIG difference is in the way you present the argument? Your typical "right wing flog" presents a consistently floggish right-wing attitude across all their posts.

"I blurted out some MAGA crap constantly for months and now people think I am a right wing flog so if anyone says anything remotely similar just once, WHY AREN'T YOU CALLING THEM A RWNJ TOO???? HYPOcRisY!!!!11!1!1"

Get over it. God.

 

[Chief]

those who don't want to see women's sport compromised

You're begging the question.

What is it about elite women's sport that you think is different to school and local club sport?

 

[the_interloper]

Soooo many people desperately concerned about fairness for women. In women's sport.

CM was being facetious. Which is not a good way to kick off a conversation.

i know you're being sarcastic with that first comment (cause I'm really clever). But it's not exactly a great argument though in my opinion, you could say this about many things. Maybe I'll try this next time someone mentions changing the date "ooh you're so desperately concerned about Indigenous people, oooh!", I mean it makes no sense right?

 

[Chief]

Maybe I'll try this next time someone mentions changing the date "ooh you're so desperately concerned about Indigenous people, oooh!", I mean it makes no sense right?

"fairness for women. In women's sport."

Meaning: they seem to keep quiet about fairness for women in every other aspect of society.

Same for the homeless, minorities, refugees...

Meaning: the concern for "fairness" is too often a cover for anti-trans dorks to have a go at one of the few minorities they can get away with publicly excluding.

Nobody gave a crap 5 years ago. Now it's the new fad spread by reactionary YouTubers and neo-Nazis posing as "misunderstood conservative voices" and crap.

It'll go away at some point. Drop out of the headlines. They'll find a new cross to burn.

 

[the_interloper]

"fairness for women. In women's sport."

Meaning: they seem to keep quiet about fairness for women in every other aspect of society.

Same for the homeless, minorities, refugees...

Meaning: the concern for "fairness" is too often a cover for anti-trans dorks to have a go at one of the few minorities they can get away with publicly excluding.

Nobody gave a crap 5 years ago. Now it's the new fad spread by reactionary YouTubers and neo-Nazis posing as "misunderstood conservative voices" and crap.

It'll go away at some point. Drop out of the headlines. They'll find a new cross to burn.

So what's the point of having an opinion on one thing if it doesn't fix every other issue in society?

And the concept of "fairness" is very arbitrary anyway. Some may have you think that unless all boards are 50/50 men and women and the "gender pay gap" is zero than that's "fair".

 

[Chief]

So what's the point of having an opinion on one thing if it doesn't fix every other issue in society?

It's not that at all.

You'll definitely see a slice of people who were, say, rubbishing AFLW, now getting concerned about trans women making womens sport unfair. It just shows that it's often not about any regard for womens sport at all.

And the concept of "fairness" is very arbitrary anyway. Some may have you think that unless all boards are 50/50 men and women and the "gender pay gap" is zero than that's "fair".

Indeed they may.

 

[the_interloper]

It's not that at all.

You'll definitely see a slice of people who were, say, rubbishing AFLW, now getting concerned about trans women making womens sport unfair. It just shows that it's often not about any regard for womens sport at all.

Well you can not like AFLW and still not want trans women participating in sport I think. (though I’m sure you’ll disagree)

 

[scoman]

You know that the BIG difference is in the way you present the argument? Your typical "right wing flog" presents a consistently floggish right-wing attitude across all their posts.

"I blurted out some MAGA crap constantly for months and now people think I am a right wing flog so if anyone says anything remotely similar just once, WHY AREN'T YOU CALLING THEM A RWNJ TOO???? HYPOcRisY!!!!11!1!1"

Get over it. God.

It's not that at all Chief. Nobody thinks you are a 'right wing flog'. My beef is that you are so dismissive of people you don't agree with. You seem to have genuinely convinced yourself that anybody showing signs of conservative views must be a 'flog', that they cant be sincere, that they are the very worst type of human. Its easy to reduce your 'opponent' to this as it makes it easier to reconcile our own beliefs, convince ourselves we are correct and the better person. The reality is people and their views are much more complicated than that.

 

[Chief]

It really depends on what those views are.

Many people like ShanDog and Contra Mundum I disagree with about some fundamental beliefs, but I don't think they are flogs.

 

[Chief]

Well you can not like AFLW and still not want trans women participating in sport I think. (though I’m sure you’ll disagree)

The point being that then rocking up and showing concern for womens sport by rejecting trans women as participants looks kinda fake.

 

[the_interloper]

The point being that then rocking up and showing concern for womens sport by rejecting trans women as participants looks kinda fake.

Ok so let’s pretend that I watch AFLW (on TV and have been to a few games), watch quite a bit of womens boxing, MMA and a bit of golf and cricket, would this make my views on trans women in sport any more valid?

(This is true for me by the way)

 

[Evolved1]

Is feminism inclusive of trans womens rights?

 

[Gralin]

Is feminism inclusive of trans womens rights?

Depends on the feminist and the type of feminism they practice

 

[Evolved1]

Depends on the feminist and the type of feminism they practice

Do you think they're best linked or treated as separate issues?

 

[Chief]

Ok so let’s pretend that I watch AFLW (on TV and have been to a few games), watch quite a bit of womens boxing, MMA and a bit of golf and cricket, would this make my views on trans women in sport any more valid?

(This is true for me by the way)

It might make you less of a hypocrite.

 

[Evolved1]

It might make you less of a hypocrite.

How would he be a hypocrite at all?

 

[Chief]

How would he be a hypocrite at all?

Come on, dude. Why wouldn't you just go back and have a quick read before butting in?

 

[Gralin]

Do you think they're best linked or treated as separate issues?

Trans rights and feminism?
I think trans rights are human rights. I think that means trans exclusionary feminism isn't true feminism.

Feminism has evolved. When it started it wasn't really interested in the rights of black women. It didn't really care about poor women either.

A black feminist coined the term intersectionality. Different people have different experiences, different levels of oppression in their lives.

There have been four waves of feminism.
Women's suffrage is what is linked to the first wave. White women getting the right to vote.

A lot of those women were racist as you'd expect at the time, they didn't see excluding all other women as being against feminism because to them white was more important.

Second wave feminism covered things like equality with men, ie right to with, right to contraceptives, abortion rights

The civil rights movement was happening at the same time and there was overlap but again the issues were more focussed on white women's rights as opposed to all women's rights or all peoples rights.

Third wave feminism started in the 90s and tried to deal with some of the issues or race and class that had previously been ignored. Intersectionality etc

We're in fourth wave feminism now, gender diversity, right to identity, trans women being part of feminism, that's all happening now.

TERFs are quite often second wave rad fems, which is kind of crazy given they fought for reproductive rights but are now in bed with anti abortionists to push back against trans women and have gone very quiet re stuff like roe v wade

 

[Evolved1]

Trans rights and feminism?
I think trans rights are human rights. I think that means trans exclusionary feminism isn't true feminism.

Feminism has evolved. When it started it wasn't really interested in the rights of black women. It didn't really care about poor women either.

A black feminist coined the term intersectionality. Different people have different experiences, different levels of oppression in their lives.

There have been four waves of feminism.
Women's suffrage is what is linked to the first wave. White women getting the right to vote.

A lot of those women were racist as you'd expect at the time, they didn't see excluding all other women as being against feminism because to them white was more important.

Second wave feminism covered things like equality with men, ie right to with, right to contraceptives, abortion rights

The civil rights movement was happening at the same time and there was overlap but again the issues were more focussed on white women's rights as opposed to all women's rights or all peoples rights.

Third wave feminism started in the 90s and tried to deal with some of the issues or race and class that had previously been ignored. Intersectionality etc

We're in fourth wave feminism now, gender diversity, right to identity, trans women being part of feminism, that's all happening now.

TERFs are quite often second wave rad fems, which is kind of crazy given they fought for reproductive rights but are now in bed with anti abortionists to push back against trans women and have gone very quiet re stuff like roe v wade

I don't have the background knowledge to question much of that, so I'll take your points on face value. If feminism is defined as the fight for female rights and equality, it's objectively wrong to exclude women based on wealth or race. Few will argue against that.

While I agree that trans rights are human rights, I don't see why feminists shoulder any responsibility to advocate on behalf of trans women. It's up to feminists to define what they're advocating for, and whether they fight purely on behalf of their sex and ignore gender altogether.

A lot of the pushback seems to come from males, which to me speaks of the same angle anti-abortionists use. Why should males get an equal say on female rights like reproduction (abortion), sports, bathroom usage, etc? Let them decide their own fate.