The utensil up that is the east coast energy market

[dockerfemme]

Sounds like we need a federal energy policy to fix the grid.

I am not an expert on energy but this is my 2 cents worth.

Gas and coal are currently critical to back up renewables and to supply baseload power. This will continue to be the case until either;

a/ renewables can reliably supply baseload power 24/7 or

b/ large scale (which can also be lots of small scale) electricity storage exists.

Moving forward this back up will end up being gas only as gas is significantly more flexible and coal plants will end their useful life and will not be replaced.

There will never be another coal fired power station built in Australia. It simply will not happen. Hence, we need to move forward on renewables because there is a day coming soon where all the coal fired power stations are dead. The coalition knew this but still stalled on renewables for 9 years (deliberately - it was all about backing Australia into a corner)

There will never be a nuclear power station built in Australia.

The future is renewables. They are cheaper to build, cost relatively nothing to operate and maintain, they are more flexible and dynamic.

Right now they need to be backed up by fossil fuels but one day that will change. And when it does Australia better be ready. Because when that day does come, and it will, a huge chunk of our export economy will cease to exist.

There isn’t any real world experience that I am aware of that shows wind and solar to actually deliver cheaper electricity. The studies that say it is cheaper look solely at electricity generation, not at running a grid.

I think the most recent studies in the states say a level of baseload (about 20 to 30%) deliver a cheaper result across the grid, than all wind and solar. We may be different because our sun and wind are very good. The baseload could be hydrogen, gas with carbon capture and storage, biofuels with carbon capture and storage or maybe nuclear. Obviously most of this baseload is theory rather than practice.

I really find the lack of detail available very frustrating. The AEMO Integrated System Plan is a tome, but I have been unable to find in it the worst case scenarios they are planning for. I would love to see that.

 

[QuietB]

There isn’t any real world experience that I am aware of that shows wind and solar to actually deliver cheaper electricity. The studies that say it is cheaper look solely at electricity generation, not at running a grid.

I think the most recent studies in the states say a level of baseload (about 20 to 30%) deliver a cheaper result across the grid, than all wind and solar. We may be different because our sun and wind are very good. The baseload could be hydrogen, gas with carbon capture and storage, biofuels with carbon capture and storage or maybe nuclear. Obviously most of this baseload is theory rather than practice.

I really find the lack of detail available very frustrating. The AEMO Integrated System Plan is a tome, but I have been unable to find in it the worst case scenarios they are planning for. I would love to see that.

Without knowing those studies I would suggest that existing baseload generation is cheaper than wind and solar.

Existing plant eventually needs to be replaced though and that is where renewables are significantly cheaper.

 

[dockerfemme]

What is different about different net-zero carbon electricity systems?

In deeply decarbonized electricity systems with significant shares of variable renewable energy, the additional availability of at least one firm elec…

www.sciencedirect.com

Here is a link to 1 study.

 

[kranky al]

So the house batteries will keep us warm during winter?

Well they can run a heater cant they

 

[HairyO]

Well they can run a heater cant they

If they have energy in them, sure. 30% less energy in the panels and 30% to even 50% more energy used during winter.

I wonder how much people are spending to be mostly self sufficient through winter.

 

[Number37]

More rubbish 37.

The problem isnt simply 'our power generation', its our requirement for dispatchible power, 24/7 power.

$billions have gone into renewables including storage & it doesnt 'cut the mustard'.

Again, WA arent suffering the same problems because its State Government acted nearly 20 years ago.

LOL.
Perhaps you can enlighten us and tell us who was exporting gas from the east coast of Australia before 2015?
Hint: nobody.

So to suggest that east coast state govts could have acted 20 years ago to secure gas reserves from gas they didn't even have, is next level 4D chess.

ReNeWaBlEs DoN't CuT tHe MuStArD.

Put the talking points down, just for a minute.

 

[Number37]

Where will Labor get us in the next 3 or 6 years? Base load renewable energy at lower prices than today?

No.
Renewables have 20 years of catching up to do.
Tax the F out of coal & gas exports. Use that money to invest in setting up our base load power to contemporary standards. ie not coal or gas.

 

[HairyO]

No.
Renewables have 20 years of catching up to do.
Tax the F out of coal & gas exports. Use that money to invest in setting up our base load power to contemporary standards. ie not coal or gas.

20 years ago if we went full renewables we would be having constant blackouts and be a bankrupt country.

Probably why Labor didnt do it from 2007 to 2013.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Snowy 2.0, another waste of billions brought to you by the gOoD eCoNoMiC mAnAgErS.

This is just political garbage.
What is your solution for energy storage?

 

[kranky al]

If they have energy in them, sure. 30% less energy in the panels and 30% to even 50% more energy used during winter.

I wonder how much people are spending to be mostly self sufficient through winter.

And in english this would read as?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

More rubbish 37.

The problem isnt simply 'our power generation', its our requirement for dispatchible power, 24/7 power.

$billions have gone into renewables including storage & it doesnt 'cut the mustard'.

Again, WA arent suffering the same problems because its State Government acted nearly 20 years ago.

A lot of the big industry in W.A. have to secure their own electricity supply.

A lot of the big industry in W.A. use a lot of Diesel.

Keeping the lights and TV's on in a house is pretty simple.

I looked at whether the company i worked for could use batteries to make more use of a Solar system.
A Powerwall was going to last less than 10 minutes.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If they subsidise batteries on houses / community batteries / solar they can make 40% of our electricity use renewable in a few years. Take pressure off the grid at night and optimise renewables.

If they subsidise me , i will gladly disappear from the grid.
Money is cheap when we don't need to talk about " how much".

Just make more batteries dude, is one of the dumbest discussions if you don't start talking amounts.

 

[kranky al]

A lot of the big industry in W.A. have to secure their own electricity supply.

A lot of the big industry in W.A. use a lot of Diesel.

Keeping the lights and TV's on in a house is pretty simple.

I looked at whether the company i worked for could use batteries to make more use of a Solar system.
A Powerwall was going to last less than 10 minutes.

If its going to take ten minutes to use a powerwall you are using funktonnes of power - a powerwall is a domestic rig.

Im guessing you have substantially more than a 5kw solar system?

Scale accordingly

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If its going to take ten minutes to use a powerwall you are using funktonnes of power - a powerwall is a domestic rig.

Im guessing you have substantially more than a 5kw solar system?

Scale accordingly

Exactly, for most industrial organizations , unless they happen to have a private altruistic owner , the payback on batteries is so far out that it won't happen.

And no its not a funktonne.
Its just a lot more than a typical house.

A typical house with solar and powerwall will not be able to easily charge a Tesla with a flat battery.

There are a lot of organizations claiming that they use 100% green electricity.
In fact, if they are burning electricity at night, they are not able to get that green electricity, they are burning coal.
They are simply paying for the right to say that they are green ahead of someone else who is actually using that solar energy during the day.

The cost of purchasing green Electricity is WAAAAAAY less than the actual cost of buying storage.

This system is encouraging a glut of Solar during the day, and not encouraging storage solutions.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

A Powerwall will run a 13KW electric motor for an hour. Do you think 50Kw or so is a lot as far as industrial consumption goes?
A Tesla has an 82KwH battery.

Do the math.

A Tesla battery, whether its a "domestic rig " or a massive unit in Adelaide is exactly the same. Lots of AA's.

The work that Tesla has done to improve power density/decrease weight, is of limited help when it comes to fixed industrial batteries.

 

[Number37]

20 years ago if we went full renewables we would be having constant blackouts and be a bankrupt country.

Probably why Labor didnt do it from 2007 to 2013.

It doesn't take 1 second to go 'full renewable', it would take at least a decade with proper planning and implementation of a sector wide coherent energy policy.

 

[Number37]

What is your solution for energy storage?

A radioisotope thermoelectric generator on every rooftop.

 

[Kwality]

A radioisotope thermoelectric generator on every rooftop.

Get Santa to drop them next time out.

 

[Number37]

Get Santa to drop them next time out.

Won't fit in his truck.
It's fully loaded with a heap of new coal power plants to replace those that break down every other day.



Kwality logic....How can we rely on coal & gas for power generation if we replace them with something else?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Won't fit in his truck.
It's fully loaded with a heap of new coal power plants to replace those that break down every other day.



Kwality logic....How can we rely on coal & gas for power generation if we replace them with something else?

What are you replacing them with on a windless night?

 

[kranky al]

What are you replacing them with on a windless night?

I think the idea is to have a blend i ok f storage facilities such as pumped hydro and craned weights etc.


Theres a lot of old minesites in wa would be great for pumped hydro - as id imagine coal mines in nsw and qld

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think the idea is to have a blend i ok f storage facilities such as pumped hydro and craned weights etc.


Theres a lot of old minesites in wa would be great for pumped hydro - as id imagine coal mines in nsw and qld

This project was kind of fascinating .
It could be fairly unique amongst mines though.
I'm not sure how you'd convert your typical open cut coal mine into pumped hydro.
W.A. pits might struggle for water. I'd suggest that it would be poor use of groundwater.

World-first Australian project repurposing mine pits for pumped hydro

Construction is underway on an innovative engineering project that will turn two retired mining pits in Queensland into a pumped

createdigital.org.au

“Wonderfully, the elevation of one of the pits is some 200 metres above the other, and they’re only 400 metres apart,” Craven told create.

---------------

 

[Number37]

What are you replacing them with on a windless night?

Radioisotope thermoelectric generators.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Radioisotope thermoelectric generators.

Based on current manufacturing costs, a 1KW generator would cost US $872 Million.
A fan heater is typically one or 2 Kw.

Your shout.

I'm a little short this week.

 

[Taylor]

Germany doesn't have any gas. Australia has s**t loads of gas.

If Ukraine never happened Germany would still be using Russian gas while it develops their own solution.

It's a shame they didn't spend that $580 billion on nuclear power, they would be looking at being 100% renewable and reliable and at a far cheaper price.

Perhaps Australia can avoid making the same mistake.