Working from home, good/bad?

[Caesar]

to me if it’s an easy job that doesn’t involve dealing with clients or being physically present - it makes sense to outsource it to the cheapest resource possible regardless of where that resource is located.

reducing costs is subordinate to growing revenue, which is contingent on a business’s ability to rapidly and frequently adapt its processes and increase throughput

outsourcing reduces business functions to purchases rather than capabilities. the outsourced functions now serve the terms of a contract rather than the evolving operational and strategic needs of the business - i.e. you are creating the pursuit of local optima

the cost reduction fixation is last century thinking, thankfully these days mostly the province of accountants

 

[checkraiseulite]

reducing costs is secondary to growing revenue, which is contingent on a business’s ability to adapt its processes and increase throughput

outsourcing reduces business functions to purchases rather than capabilities. the outsourced functions now serve the terms of a contract rather than the evolving operational and strategic needs of the business - i.e. you are creating the pursuit of local optima

the cost reduction fixation is 80s/90s thinking, thankfully these days mostly the province of accountants

some not so subtle trolling i'm sure - but i might tell some of the admin / back office staff at my workplace to pull these lines out in their next KPI reviews.

on a more serious note - you'll struggle to convince me that outsourcing / offshoring certain business functions that have very little effect on generating revenue does not make sense.

 

[Caesar]

some not so subtle trolling i'm sure - but i might tell some of the admin / back office staff at my workplace to pull these lines out in their next KPI reviews.

on a more serious note - you'll struggle to convince me that outsourcing / offshoring certain business functions that have very little effect on generating revenue does not make sense.

some severe goalpost shifting happening here - we have gone from ‘dealing with clients or being physically present’ to having an effect on generating revenue

very different things

 

[checkraiseulite]

some severe goalpost shifting happening here - we have gone from ‘dealing with clients or being physically present’ to having an effect on generating revenue

very different things

you forgot the 'easy job that doesn't involve...' part.

context is key.

 

[Caesar]

you forgot the 'easy job that doesn't involve...' part.

context is key.

your initial statement was that anything back end will head off shore

that is nonsense, there are tons of back end functions that are critical to revenue generation and strategic capability which it is not in the interest of businesses to divest in pursuit of quick cost savings

devops is a good concrete example but like you said you haven’t heard of it…

 

[checkraiseulite]

your initial statement was that anything back end will head off shore

that is nonsense, there are tons of back end functions that are critical to revenue generation and strategic capability which it is not in the interest of businesses to divest in pursuit of quick cost savings

devops is a good concrete example but like you said you haven’t heard of it…

yes - and i agree my initial statement was far too broad and was made having regard to my own industry and personal experience.

to me if it’s an easy job that doesn’t involve dealing with clients or being physically present - it makes sense to outsource it to the cheapest resource possible regardless of where that resource is located.

i still don't understand how the above quote is wrong.

DevOps is the combination of cultural philosophies, practices, and tools that increases an organization's ability to deliver applications and services at high velocity

reads to me something straight off a bad management consulting slide deck but what do i know down here in 2002

 

[Gralin]

client facing stuff sure. but anything back end will be heading off shore if it isn't already. it will be done both better and cheaper offshore.

We found the efficiency consultant

 

[Scotland]

From my limited experience offshoring sucks. Things like manufacturing and fabrication where there is a large component of low skilled labour and energy/material costs sure, but I've lost count of how many companies I've seen try to save money on the basis of 'hey I can get someone overseas to do the same work for less money and charge clients the same amount' and fail dismally.

RE: WFH, now post (mid?) COVID it has become a bigger factor. I got a friend of mine an interview and she ended up taking a different position because her preference was to WFH full time from day one which most places wouldn't offer. If I was hiring I wouldn't be super enthusiastic about that. Still an employees' market so when that turns will be interesting to see how that plays out now a lot of people are just expecting to WFH at their discretion - and businesses are used to telling employees they have to do it.

 

[burge13]

Any company that reverts back to draconian rules of central offices by rule will fail. Theres literally no reason to not be able to do computer jobs remotely. Sure, have a couple days a week in to network and things but seriously, what benefit is there to forcing people into an office anymore

Most people have proven to be productive at home and performance management should still apply for any staff not doing their job in office or home. Makes no difference. Its just s**t bosses forcing people back at this point

 

[checkraiseulite]

Any company that reverts back to draconian rules of central offices by rule will fail. Theres literally no reason to not be able to do computer jobs remotely. Sure, have a couple days a week in to network and things but seriously, what benefit is there to forcing people into an office anymore

Most people have proven to be productive at home and performance management should still apply for any staff not doing their job in office or home. Makes no difference. Its just s**t bosses forcing people back at this point

you will never convince me a graduate lawyer or accountant will learn things properly working at home a significant percentage of time.

to properly train them - senior and intermediate staff need to be in the office. intermediates finally have some power which is great for them on multiple levels (higher pay, flexibility, lack of properly trained juniors) but generally bad for the business.

 

[burge13]

you will never convince me a graduate lawyer or accountant will learn things properly working at home a significant percentage of time.

to properly train them - senior and intermediate staff need to be in the office. intermediates finally have some power which is great for them on multiple levels (higher pay, flexibility, lack of properly trained juniors) but generally bad for the business.

Theres absolutely jobs that are better face to face, especially those in training. I dont think those are the majority and most office settings would be equally efficient at home. Most comms is done via teams, email, phone rather than face to face, especially for actual action items

 

[the_interloper]

From my limited experience offshoring sucks. Things like manufacturing and fabrication where there is a large component of low skilled labour and energy/material costs sure, but I've lost count of how many companies I've seen try to save money on the basis of 'hey I can get someone overseas to do the same work for less money and charge clients the same amount' and fail dismally.

RE: WFH, now post (mid?) COVID it has become a bigger factor. I got a friend of mine an interview and she ended up taking a different position because her preference was to WFH full time from day one which most places wouldn't offer. If I was hiring I wouldn't be super enthusiastic about that. Still an employees' market so when that turns will be interesting to see how that plays out now a lot of people are just expecting to WFH at their discretion - and businesses are used to telling employees they have to do it.

This is fair enough but it depends on what the application is. I work for a fabricating company which requires high quality and specifically designed infrastructure. The run rate stuff is fine to get from OS but the quality can be low and inconsistent, plus you can be subject to long lead times. My company is fairly niche though so I'm aware this is not really the norm.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Any company that reverts back to draconian rules of central offices by rule will fail. There's literally no reason to not be able to do computer jobs remotely. Sure, have a couple days a week in to network and things but seriously, what benefit is there to forcing people into an office anymore

Most people have proven to be productive at home and performance management should still apply for any staff not doing their job in office or home. Makes no difference. Its just s**t bosses forcing people back at this point

would absolutely depend on the circumstances?

Its up to a company how they want to run their company, if they want to prioritise face to face working that's their onus? Just like its the up to the employee to leave if they don't like it?

 

[the_interloper]

would absolutely depend on the circumstances?

Its up to a company how they want to run their company, if they want to prioritise face to face working that's their onus? Just like its the up to the employee to leave if they don't like it?

I guess there's an issue if the worker doesn't want to expose themselves to COVID/flu etc. I don't really know if this has been tested in a legal sense yet, i'm sure it will be at some point though.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I guess there's an issue if the worker doesn't want to expose themselves to COVID/flu etc. I don't really know if this has been tested in a legal sense yet, i'm sure it will be at some point though.

I doubt "i don't want to be exposed to COVID" is an excuse that someone needs to work from home. They'd be better trying to argue they are just as efficient from home as they are in the office, that it is they ever anted to argue in the first place.

Unless the government have issued advice to the same via a public health order (which they have stopped doing for over a year now) its up to the employer to manage their WFH protocols.

If it actually ever went to court how does a court rule in favor of the employee when when have had things like influenza for ever? it may have stacked up as an argument pre vaccination but that's long gone now IMO.

 

[the_interloper]

I doubt "i don't want to be exposed to COVID" is an excuse that someone needs to work from home. They'd be better trying to argue they are just as efficient from home as they are in the office, that it is they ever anted to argue in the first place.

Unless the government have issued advice to the same via a public health order (which they have stopped doing for over a year now) its up to the employer to manage their WFH protocols.

If it actually ever went to court how does a court rule in favor of the employee when when have had things like influenza for ever? it may have stacked up as an argument pre vaccination but that's long gone now IMO.

I agree with you generally speaking, but funnily enough this just popped up on my Linkedin

Work from home is now a legal right in Netherlands

The Netherlands became one of the first countries to make work from home a legal right after the Dutch parliament approved legislation. Work from home, also known as remote work, is an employment arrangement which facilitates the employees to work from anywhere. They do not need to commute to a...

www.wionews.com

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I agree with you generally speaking, but funnily enough this just popped up on my Linkedin

Work from home is now a legal right in Netherlands

The Netherlands became one of the first countries to make work from home a legal right after the Dutch parliament approved legislation. Work from home, also known as remote work, is an employment arrangement which facilitates the employees to work from anywhere. They do not need to commute to a...

www.wionews.com

good on the Netherlands i suppose

 

[ash_1050]

Having been firmly in the WFH earlier in this thread there's been a bit of a change.

Started a new job at a new company, and it's a role that I'm excited to be in and has a lot of scope for growth and development.
Have spent the first 6 weeks in the office five days a week, which will drop back to 3-4 days a week in the office shortly.

It's been incredibly valuable being in the office as a new starter, as it's a chance to make connections with people, build rapport, and ask all the dumb questions in real time rather than messaging someone 10 times a day to ask something simple.
My new employer also has subtle differences like no hot desking, new keyboards for new starters (my previous role the keyboards were filthy on our return to the office and clogged with pre-covid gunk) and a table tennis table which gets a bit of a workout.

As a result I'm enjoying coming into the office, whereas the previous role going into the office was a complete waste of time and sapped morale rather than adding a tangible benefit. With that said looking forward to having the Monday/Friday as WFH days and having that balance.

 

[Chucks]

Having been firmly in the WFH earlier in this thread there's been a bit of a change.

Started a new job at a new company, and it's a role that I'm excited to be in and has a lot of scope for growth and development.
Have spent the first 6 weeks in the office five days a week, which will drop back to 3-4 days a week in the office shortly.

It's been incredibly valuable being in the office as a new starter, as it's a chance to make connections with people, build rapport, and ask all the dumb questions in real time rather than messaging someone 10 times a day to ask something simple.
My new employer also has subtle differences like no hot desking, new keyboards for new starters (my previous role the keyboards were filthy on our return to the office and clogged with pre-covid gunk) and a table tennis table which gets a bit of a workout.

As a result I'm enjoying coming into the office, whereas the previous role going into the office was a complete waste of time and sapped morale rather than adding a tangible benefit. With that said looking forward to having the Monday/Friday as WFH days and having that balance.

All for that - I think there's a lot to be said for going into the office when starting a new job.. the things you learn in person are obviously invaluable!

On a personal basis, we don't have any WFH flexibility whatsoever, which really grates on me sometimes. In the big scheme of things it's not the end of the world, and I'd probably still come in most of the time, but I'd just like to have the option to WFH on the odd day here and there, rather than having to come in. Extremely frustrating.

 

[Caesar]

We’ve definitely lost some junior staff in the last 12 months due to the isolation. They want to be in an environment with social contact and the ability to learn by osmosis. One of my best grads just left because the job was too lonely.

It’s usually the older staff who just want to be at home as much as possible. They have the family lives and the comfortable home offices, and generally are on a lower growth trajectory.

I’m starting to spend more time in the office for the sake of my juniors.

 

[HirdyLannister]

We’ve definitely lost some junior staff in the last 12 months due to the isolation. They want to be in an environment with social contact and the ability to learn by osmosis. One of my best grads just left because the job was too lonely.

It’s usually the older staff who just want to be at home as much as possible. They have the family lives and the comfortable home offices, and generally are on a lower growth trajectory.

I’m starting to spend more time in the office for the sake of my juniors.

May I ask what type of work?

 

[Caesar]

May I ask what type of work?

Tech

 

[Massive Unit]

The business I work for has literally just opened a new corporate office in Sydney, full open plan. Staff are being 'encouraged' to come into the office 3 days per week and we are designating one day per week where all staff are in attendance so that we can foster cross-functional cooperation. Largely speaking though, we are giving staff some freedom to choose what works for them in relation to WFH balance.

The key from my perspective is to have clear role definitions and accountabilities with regular discussions about progress against goals. You either trust your people to work from home or you don't. If you don't, then you've got some bigger issues.

 

[Caesar]

Got a feeling one of my team leads is going to quit soon. Just get that feeling that she’s checked out.

She’s a relatively new hire, and I think the work not being what she expect plus feeling isolated is too much. I’ve sunk a lot of time into supporting her so will be disappointed if she bails.

 

[checkraiseulite]

The business I work for has literally just opened a new corporate office in Sydney, full open plan.

sounds like hell on earth.

many companies in my industry are moving away from open plan back to individual offices.

impossible to concentrate and easier to get sick in an open plan environment.