Opinion Most overrated players from each team?

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FreddyTwoShoes said:
So.....

If anyone thinks someone you've never seen play is better than 3 people you might have seen play, then everybody in the future (who you haven't seen play) can't ever be better than the other person who you've never seen play?

Have I got that right?
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What? I think you are confusing yourself. All I’m saying is his standards of Lethal are so unrealistically high that he will never regard somebody as better no matter what they achieve. It is unlikely somebody will achieve more than the players I mentioned in our lifetime at least. Ergo he will live the rest of his life thinking Lethal is the best in another 40 years or whatever. 3/4 of century after he retired lol.


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Falcon3518 said:
What? I think you are confusing yourself. All I’m saying is his standards of Lethal are so unrealistically high that he will never regard somebody as better no matter what they achieve. It is unlikely somebody will achieve more than the players I mentioned in our lifetime at least. Ergo he will live the rest of his life thinking Lethal is the best in another 40 years or whatever. 3/4 of century after he retired lol.


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No, not confused. Thanks for confirming.
 
tiger_tough said:
How many of them are from free kicks?
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This post had me genuinely curious, so thought I’d check it out.

Ginnivan’s season so far (high frees/goals):

Round 1 - 2 goals had zero frees. (0/2)

Round 2 - 1 goal, from a mark (0/1)

Round 3 - 1 goal, decked behind play after a Collingwood goal. (0/1)

Round 4 - 2 goals, 1 from a high. (1/2)

Round 5 - DNP

Round 6 - 5 goals, 1 from a high. (1/5)

Round 7 - 3 goals, none from highs (0/3)

Round 8 - 3 goals, 2 from highs. 1 a coat hanger by McIntosh. (2/3)

Round 9 - DNP

Round 10 - 2 goals, 1 from a high (1/2)

Round 11 - Goalless

Round 12 - 2 goals, none from highs (0/2)

Round 13 - 1 goal from a high (1/1)

Round 14 - BYE

Round 15 - 1 goal, from a mark (0/1)

As I’ve been checking each game and minute of goal, then searching Kayo for that goal to watch, I’m just going to assume every free he receives is a high/goal from here on in.

Round 16 - 3 goals, 1 free (1/3)

Round 17 - 2 goals, 2 frees (2/2)

Round 18 - 1 goal, 1 free (1/1)

Round 19 - goalless

TOTAL - 29 goals, 10 goals from highs.

All I’ve done is mention the goals from highs. Not whether all the high frees were there or not. So worst case, he’s kicked 10 goals from high frees, but realistically, it’s less than that because has gotten targeted too so barely a quarter of his 29 goals for the year so far have been unwarranted.

Still reckon he’s overrated for a second year player?
 

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Grrr said:
No but they were better marks for sure. But they were still very fit.
I can assure you 100% there has been no better athlete ever on an AFL field than GAS.
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Um no, maybe out of the forwards but Buddy is pretty good. Definitely not the top midfielders are are recruited to run.


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PieLebo87 said:
This post had me genuinely curious, so thought I’d check it out.

Ginnivan’s season so far (high frees/goals):

Round 1 - 2 goals had zero frees. (0/2)

Round 2 - 1 goal, from a mark (0/1)

Round 3 - 1 goal, decked behind play after a Collingwood goal. (0/1)

Round 4 - 2 goals, 1 from a high. (1/2)

Round 5 - DNP

Round 6 - 5 goals, 1 from a high. (1/5)

Round 7 - 3 goals, none from highs (0/3)

Round 8 - 3 goals, 2 from highs. 1 a coat hanger by McIntosh. (2/3)

Round 9 - DNP

Round 10 - 2 goals, 1 from a high (1/2)

Round 11 - Goalless

Round 12 - 2 goals, none from highs (0/2)

Round 13 - 1 goal from a high (1/1)

Round 14 - BYE

Round 15 - 1 goal, from a mark (0/1)

As I’ve been checking each game and minute of goal, then searching Kayo for that goal to watch, I’m just going to assume every free he receives is a high/goal from here on in.

Round 16 - 3 goals, 1 free (1/3)

Round 17 - 2 goals, 2 frees (2/2)

Round 18 - 1 goal, 1 free (1/1)

Round 19 - goalless

TOTAL - 29 goals, 10 goals from highs.

All I’ve done is mention the goals from highs. Not whether all the high frees were there or not. So worst case, he’s kicked 10 goals from high frees, but realistically, it’s less than that because has gotten targeted too so barely a quarter of his 29 goals for the year so far have been unwarranted.

Still reckon he’s overrated for a second year player?
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I never said he was over rated. It was pointed out he'd kicked more goals than some other young small forwards - I just asked how many of them were from free kicks.

Kid can play, he'll just have to adjust the way he plays under immediate tackling pressure from now on, or at least until the rule interpretation over correction settles down.
 
Falcon3518 said:
Um no, maybe out of the forwards but Buddy is pretty good. Definitely not the top midfielders are are recruited to run.


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Yes Buddy and Richo is/were great athletes no doubt and close to GAS in some respects. Goodes also, but they didn't have his dynamic attributes who was a wingman for many years.

Mids were recruited to run, no mids are recruited mainly on ability to win the ball, Dusty was no runner when recruited, nor Cripps. If they have the ability to run at an early age like Ward for example then that is an advantage of course. Scully is a good example, dominated juniors as a non stop runner, but that did not translate into AFL dominance. GAJ was a half forward when he started.
 
Grrr said:
You have no idea, have you ever watched Ablett's highlight. He was a freak of an athlete, just as Jeff Thomson was the fastest and most lethal bowler in history. Nothing to do with nostalgia, he just was.

No Dusty is not stronger than Ablett. Ablett was 185cm and 97kg's of pure muscle. Dusty has great strength through the core, but so had Ablett, who was faster, had a far greater leap, one of the greatest to have ever played the game, was a bigger kick off either foot. Maybe Dusty might have beaten him in a beep test but no so sure.

Carey was a CHF so what is the point in comparing. As a mid Cripps can dominate games like no other due to his size, but he is a bull and generally runs in straight lines. Matthews was 86kg's of muscle who could change direction better than any play I've seen. Dusty has been compared to him and I can see aspects of that. Koutoufides a big mid from the 90's on was 191cm and 98kg's and was considered one of the greats for a short while because he was fast and a great mover would have stood Cripps no problem, 20 years earlier. Just because it is 2022 it doesn't make them better.
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Yeah fair enough, all those blokes played in the AFL era during their careers. My point is only players who only played in the VFL era. In regards to Lethals evasiveness, no way. Small forwards are better cause they are smaller even Bolton is. This is the exaggeration I’m talking about. Just because a player is overall better doesn’t mean he is better in every aspect of the game. You guys do this to Lethal all the time to make him sound unbeatable, it’s annoying and why I think people are overrating him.


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Falcon3518 said:
Not sure why you as a cats supporter are so salty about this. What I’m saying doesn’t relate to GAS as he played in the AFL era as well.


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Not salty at all. Just flummoxed at the absolute lack of nuance in your arguments. Everything is black and white in your world. AFL era good, VFL era bad is a great example of it.
 
FreddyTwoShoes said:
Not salty at all. Just flummoxed at the absolute lack of nuance in your arguments. Everything is black and white in your world. AFL era good, VFL era bad is a great example of it.
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You are the complete opposite as you are a ‘back in my day’ bloke. You disrespect the current players by unfairly underrating them. The VFL era only played against 12 teams, weren’t even a national comp and they weren’t professional. Like ffs how blind can you be to not realise the comp is harder now cause of the increase in both the amount of good players and quality of them and coaching. You think it’s a coincidence that forwards in the first half of the 20th century were kick bags of 15 and 100+ a season. They looked malnourished for gods sake. But nah they are all better than Buddy lol.


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Falcon3518 said:
Yeah fair enough, all those blokes played in the AFL era during their careers. My point is only players who only played in the VFL era. In regards to Lethals evasiveness, no way. Small forwards are better cause they are smaller even Bolton is. This is the exaggeration I’m talking about. Just because a player is overall better doesn’t mean he is better in every aspect of the game. You guys do this to Lethal all the time to make him sound unbeatable, it’s annoying and why I think people are overrating him.


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Bolton is a freak, but so was Matthews. I understand your general point of view that as players evolve and train more they hone their skills more etc, which is basically true, there were some players in days gone who were lousy kicks for example but were still good players. Those players might not cut it in todays football. Josh Caddy would have been a very good footballer in the 80's but too slow for todays game. But some players just stand out and Matthews was one of them, a freak of a player. GAS another one. Robert Harvey ran the Melbourne Marathon at 13 years old. Going back further Haydn Bunton must have been some sort of player, won the Brownlow in his first and second year of football ages 19 and 20, another a few years later. 3 Sandover medals to boot.
 
Falcon3518 said:
You are the complete opposite as you are a ‘back in my day’ bloke. You disrespect the current players by unfairly underrating them. The VFL era only played against 12 teams, weren’t even a national comp and they weren’t professional. Like ffs how blind can you be to not realise the comp is harder now cause of the increase in both the amount of good players and quality of them and coaching. You think it’s a coincidence that forwards in the first half of the 20th century were kick bags of 15 and 100+ a season. They looked malnourished for gods sake. But nah they are all better than Buddy lol.


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Click to expand...
The difference from then to now is back then it was Matthews as clearly the best player in the comp for years on end. Similar to GAJ being the best from 07-14.

Currently there’s no player that stands out like that as clearly better Dusty had 1 year even then Danger was right behind him in 2017. And even when a player has a big year it’s not like there aren’t players close to them and they aren’t doing it year in, year out.

The only other player that comes close is Buddy compared to all other forwards over the last 17 years.
 
Falcon3518 said:
You are the complete opposite as you are a ‘back in my day’ bloke. You disrespect the current players by unfairly underrating them. The VFL era only played against 12 teams, weren’t even a national comp and they weren’t professional. Like ffs how blind can you be to not realise the comp is harder now cause of the increase in both the amount of good players and quality of them and coaching. You think it’s a coincidence that forwards in the first half of the 20th century were kick bags of 15 and 100+ a season. They looked malnourished for gods sake. But nah they are all better than Buddy lol.


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Gosh, you seem to know a lot about me. Even things that I don't know about myself. You're very insightful.
 

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H00t said:
The difference from then to now is back then it was Matthews as clearly the best player in the comp for years on end. Similar to GAJ being the best from 07-14.

Currently there’s no player that stands out like that as clearly better Dusty had 1 year even then Danger was right behind him in 2017. And even when a player has a big year it’s not like there aren’t players close to them and they aren’t doing it year in, year out.

The only other player that comes close is Buddy compared to all other forwards over the last 17 years.
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Yes exactly because it is much harder to dominate a national comp of 18 compared to a local comp of 12. Btw Dusty was considered the best in the comp for 4 years man, enough with the underrating.


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FreddyTwoShoes said:
Gosh, you seem to know a lot about me. Even things that I don't know about myself. You're very insightful.
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Reading people from what they say is pretty easy if you try, psychologists exist for that reason. Some people don’t actually know themselves or why they think certain things.


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Falcon3518 said:
Yes exactly because it is much harder to dominate a national comp of 18 compared to a local comp of 12. Btw Dusty was considered the best in the comp for 4 years man, enough with the underrating.


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It’s not like there was someone at Matthews level before him or after him.

And when there’s only 12 teams the talent is condensed, the more teams the more spread out it is and the less stacked teams you are competing against.

Dusty’s performances in 18-20 certainly didn’t have him clearly the best. He lifted for finals but others had his number during the year.

Someone like Matthews did it non-stop.
 
H00t said:
It’s not like there was someone at Matthews level before him or after him.

And when there’s only 12 teams the talent is condensed, the more teams the more spread out it is and the less stacked teams you are competing against.

Dusty’s performances in 18-20 certainly didn’t have him clearly the best. He lifted for finals but others had his number during the year.

Someone like Matthews did it non-stop.
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Condensing doesn’t matter, it’s just total people in the league to compete with. AFL has more that’s it.

Besides, you trying to say that the comps in the early 1900s are stronger than they are now in 8 teams? Thought it’s pretty obvious they were the weakest. Teams were going undefeated and wooden spooners won flags in the same season amazingly.


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Falcon3518 said:
Reading people from what they say is pretty easy if you try, psychologists exist for that reason. Some people don’t actually know themselves or why they think certain things.


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I love being patronised by a dufus fresh out of uni. I remember those days. I knew everything about everything. Good times. Keep it coming.
 
Falcon, your argument that because he wasnt as muscular and big as players these days is so invalid i dont know where to begin, but here goes.

The rules of the game have changed over time. Not sure if you were aware, but there wasnt always an interchange.

You think martin/GAJ and co are going to be having that much muscle and playing the same way if they have to play 100% game time every game? No, there was a reason players were leaner and its not that they couldn't put muscle on. Also the afl era players arent having to cop anywhere near as much stuff off the ball and erant elbows to the head as players in those days did. It was a different game back then.

If you need anymore proof, just look at the rugby league players who tried to switch codes? Did they keep all their muscle weight? Did they dominate AFL just because they were stronger? nope. The evidence is against you.

Lethal dominated the game back in those days in the way the game was played in those days and for a very long time.
 
lordbob said:
Falcon, your argument that because he wasnt as muscular and big as players these days is so invalid i dont know where to begin, but here goes.

The rules of the game have changed over time. Not sure if you were aware, but there wasnt always an interchange.

You think martin/GAJ and co are going to be having that much muscle and playing the same way if they have to play 100% game time every game? No, there was a reason players were leaner and its not that they couldn't put muscle on. Also the afl era players arent having to cop anywhere near as much stuff off the ball and erant elbows to the head as players in those days did. It was a different game back then.

If you need anymore proof, just look at the rugby league players who tried to switch codes? Did they keep all their muscle weight? Did they dominate AFL just because they were stronger? nope. The evidence is against you.

Lethal dominated the game back in those days in the way the game was played in those days and for a very long time.
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Not really sure what you mean by that. Players today run more km than they did back then. If anything Lethal would be the one who has to lose weight to keep up the pace and endurance with players today. Since strength is a big factor in how he played as he doesn’t have the height he wouldn’t play as well as he would lose some of his ‘edge’


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lordbob said:
They run in bursts and get regular breaks to recover, playing 100% with no breaks requires a different approach.
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I think we’ll agree to disagree here. They run more kms now and they have to put more speed/pressure on the ball. Taking into account there aren’t zones anymore where players sit back and do nothing if the ball isn’t there I think it’s safe to say today’s game requires more endurance than it did in the VFL era.


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