The utensil up that is the east coast energy market

[kranky al]

This is the type of embarrassing reply that is a big part of the issue. Please think about the words "Perhaps we need to ask ourselves, why are we following the FAILED German model which is high CO2, high security of supply risk, expensive, unreliable and carries massive geo-political risk."

Why compare Australia to Germany? Surely a sensible response would be to compare Germany to successful jurisdictions.



what is Germany's CO2 per kwh vs France, Tasmania, Ontario, Sweden, Norway and every other successful nation?

This is why Germany's $1.5 trillion 45 years model is a failure..............especially when successful nations achieved their goal half a century ago

 

[Chief]

Looks like their emissions from power are stable and everything else is dropping.

 

[Power Raid]

View attachment 1459268View attachment 1459269View attachment 1459270

nice shifting of the goal posts

care to remain on topic about the effectiveness of GERMANY'S FAILED DIRTY RENEWABLES compared to power generation that delivered 14-70g CO2/kwh?


Should Australia follow a $1.5 trillion 45 year DIRTY FAILED GERMANY strategy or should we follow successful nations power generation models like Tasmania, Norway, Sweden, France and Ontario?



and yes power generation is just one area we should improve on

 

[Power Raid]

Their output of co2 per head of population is far lower than ours…

what is relevant in energy markets in power production. You are presenting stats irrelevant to the topic but if you look within the data you posted, it highlights the failings of Germany.

we have seen Germany's failed $1.5 trillion 45 year fiasco deliver dirty power. yet Ontarion, Norway, Sweden, France, Tassie, NZ, much of South America, Himachal India, Yukon, Iceland etc deliver clean energy.

Germany's model is failed not only in CO2 but also security of supply, geo-political risk, funding war and expansionist regimes, expensive and unreliable.



Should Australia follow Germany's failed model?

 

[Kwality]

The problem on the east coast:

Batteries and pumps revel in market volatility; the price cap not so much

For the first time, big batteries made more money out of energy arbitrage than they did out of frequency control markets.

reneweconomy.com.au

& for the consumer:

Consumers facing 'nightmare' power bills as wholesale electricity costs spike to record highs

Millions of households are warned to brace for savage hikes to their power bills as a newly released report reveals prices in Australia's biggest electricity market rocketed to their highest levels on record in the last quarter.

www.abc.net.au

Consumers warned of looming 'nightmare' as AEMO reports record wholesale electricity costs​

&

Unlikely to be a 'one-off'​

"We haven't ever seen prices reach these levels," Dr Mountain said.

"They're about two to three times higher than the highest quarterly average that we've ever seen and that highest quarterly stood out as a one-off.

"I'm not sure that this quarter is going to stand out as a one-off.

"This is unprecedented."


IMHO we (east coast consumers) need a review of the marketplace mechanism:

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Electricity/NEM/National-Electricity-Market-Fact-Sheet.pdf

AEMO are you up to it ? Put the consumers first.

 

[Power Raid]

The problem on the east coast:

Batteries and pumps revel in market volatility; the price cap not so much

For the first time, big batteries made more money out of energy arbitrage than they did out of frequency control markets.

reneweconomy.com.au

& for the consumer:

Consumers facing 'nightmare' power bills as wholesale electricity costs spike to record highs

Millions of households are warned to brace for savage hikes to their power bills as a newly released report reveals prices in Australia's biggest electricity market rocketed to their highest levels on record in the last quarter.

www.abc.net.au

Consumers warned of looming 'nightmare' as AEMO reports record wholesale electricity costs​

&

Unlikely to be a 'one-off'​

"We haven't ever seen prices reach these levels," Dr Mountain said.

"They're about two to three times higher than the highest quarterly average that we've ever seen and that highest quarterly stood out as a one-off.

"I'm not sure that this quarter is going to stand out as a one-off.

"This is unprecedented."


IMHO we (east coast consumers) need a review of the marketplace mechanism:

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Electricity/NEM/National-Electricity-Market-Fact-Sheet.pdf

AEMO are you up to it ? Put the consumers first.

get rid of 6 minute blocks based on immediate market

get power stations to bid 1 month in advance and force them to buy from the market if they can't deliver. This will bankrupt the unreliable and allow for a return to a market based on reliable cheap power rather than price dumping and price gouging.

 

[Kwality]

get rid of 6 minute blocks based on immediate market

get power stations to bid 1 month in advance and force them to buy from the market if they can't deliver. This will bankrupt the unreliable and allow for a return to a market based on reliable cheap power rather than price dumping and price gouging.

Then calculate the cheapest price over 24 hours. Consumers have limited ability to cherry pick.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

get rid of 6 minute blocks based on immediate market

get power stations to bid 1 month in advance and force them to buy from the market if they can't deliver. This will bankrupt the unreliable and allow for a return to a market based on reliable cheap power rather than price dumping and price gouging.

Apart from profits , there are costs.
If we got to the point where our Coal Stations were only needed 10% of the time, they will need to cover those costs during that 10% utilization or go bust.
At the moment the costs are amortised over the entire day.

If we get to the point where there is a glut of Solar , then during sunny days it should be dirt cheap.

I'm thinking that we somehow need to force grid suppliers to meet terms such as supply reliability AND CO2/kwh.
Therefore if you owned a solar power station, you could not supply unless you owned, or did a deal with a storage facility or a gas/coal user.
Similarly it would require a power station operator to build renewables or do a deal with a renewable operator.

Green Energy is NOT addressing the problem
People are able to pay a surcharge, and claim they are using 100% renewable electricity. Its a lie and it is not helping address the storage issues.
On the books they take solar electricity generated during the day and claim that it is used at night for those purchasing green energy.

The desalination plant in Wonthaggi claim to use 100% sustainable electricity.
My question is , do they operate so that the plant is mainly used when renewable electricity available?

To me, it should have its own 100Mw solar farm , and only desalinate water when they produce electricity.
If they don't need the water , sell it to the grid.

The purchasing of "sustainable electricity" does not put any incentive onto the organisation to utilize ACTUAL sustainable electricity.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Apart from profits , there are costs.
If we got to the point where our Coal Stations were only needed 10% of the time, they will need to cover those costs during that 10% utilization or go bust.
At the moment the costs are amortised over the entire day.

If we get to the point where there is a glut of Solar , then during sunny days it should be dirt cheap.

I'm thinking that we somehow need to force grid suppliers to meet terms such as supply reliability AND CO2/kwh.
Therefore if you owned a solar power station, you could not supply unless you owned, or did a deal with a storage facility or a gas/coal user.
Similarly it would require a power station operator to build renewables or do a deal with a renewable operator.

Green Energy is NOT addressing the problem
People are able to pay a surcharge, and claim they are using 100% renewable electricity. Its a lie and it is not helping address the storage issues.
On the books they take solar electricity generated during the day and claim that it is used at night for those purchasing green energy.

The desalination plant in Wonthaggi claim to use 100% sustainable electricity.
My question is , do they operate so that the plant is mainly used when renewable electricity available?

To me, it should have its own 100Mw solar farm , and only desalinate water when they produce electricity.
If they don't need the water , sell it to the grid.

The purchasing of "sustainable electricity" does not put any incentive onto the organisation to utilize ACTUAL sustainable electricity.

This would have to be the biggest con job going around. All these companies saying we are 100% renewable (or will be there in 12 or 18 months). Gives Joe Consumer the impression they are investing in clean energy options for their entire energy needs (including battery storage). At best they are investing in enough renewable energy to theoretically provide their entire needs at peak demand (even if it can't be dispatched to all the places its required) or, even worse, simply paying a premium as an effective carbon offset.

It's an absolute scam.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

This would have to be the biggest con job going around. All these companies saying we are 100% renewable (or will be there in 12 or 18 months). Gives Joe Consumer the impression they are investing in clean energy options for their entire energy needs (including battery storage). At best they are investing in enough renewable energy to theoretically provide their entire needs at peak demand (even if it can't be dispatched to all the places its required) or, even worse, simply paying a premium as an effective carbon offset.

It's an absolute scam.

I'm looking at a Solar installation for the company i work for.
Because we normally only operate during the day, we can get something like 50% renewable from rooftop solar panels.

Alternatively i can just pay extra to our energy provider and then run around waving a flag saying 50% renewable or 100% renewable depending how much we spend.
We don't have to change our operation at all to do that , not one iota.

Its hard to convince the bean counters regarding what is best long term for both the company profits and the environment. Ie , ongoing costs vs capital.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I suspect that eventually there will be smart systems.

There are many appliances and industries where it doesn't really matter when they are used.
The Water desalination is a big example. It doesn't need to happen on a cold still night. Do it later.

Fridge defrosting, dishwashers, swimming pool filter/pumps, could feasibly talk to the grid and know the best time to operate.

 

[Power Raid]

Apart from profits , there are costs.
If we got to the point where our Coal Stations were only needed 10% of the time, they will need to cover those costs during that 10% utilization or go bust.
At the moment the costs are amortised over the entire day.

If we get to the point where there is a glut of Solar , then during sunny days it should be dirt cheap.

I'm thinking that we somehow need to force grid suppliers to meet terms such as supply reliability AND CO2/kwh.
Therefore if you owned a solar power station, you could not supply unless you owned, or did a deal with a storage facility or a gas/coal user.
Similarly it would require a power station operator to build renewables or do a deal with a renewable operator.

Green Energy is NOT addressing the problem
People are able to pay a surcharge, and claim they are using 100% renewable electricity. Its a lie and it is not helping address the storage issues.
On the books they take solar electricity generated during the day and claim that it is used at night for those purchasing green energy.

The desalination plant in Wonthaggi claim to use 100% sustainable electricity.
My question is , do they operate so that the plant is mainly used when renewable electricity available?

To me, it should have its own 100Mw solar farm , and only desalinate water when they produce electricity.
If they don't need the water , sell it to the grid.

The purchasing of "sustainable electricity" does not put any incentive onto the organisation to utilize ACTUAL sustainable electricity.

you are right

unfortunately elements of the government have mislead the electorate and in turn the electorate has encouraged the government to tell them misleading facts and even blatant lies. It's a vicious cycle which in my opinion can only be resolved by crazy bills, leading to inflation, lower standards of living, increased homelessness and then a "process" to channel that anger (this is usually war).

War then enables solutions, as you now have a new fad for the irrational fanaticism.

 

[Power Raid]

Apart from profits , there are costs.
If we got to the point where our Coal Stations were only needed 10% of the time, they will need to cover those costs during that 10% utilization or go bust.
At the moment the costs are amortised over the entire day.

If we get to the point where there is a glut of Solar , then during sunny days it should be dirt cheap.

I'm thinking that we somehow need to force grid suppliers to meet terms such as supply reliability AND CO2/kwh.
Therefore if you owned a solar power station, you could not supply unless you owned, or did a deal with a storage facility or a gas/coal user.
Similarly it would require a power station operator to build renewables or do a deal with a renewable operator.

Green Energy is NOT addressing the problem
People are able to pay a surcharge, and claim they are using 100% renewable electricity. Its a lie and it is not helping address the storage issues.
On the books they take solar electricity generated during the day and claim that it is used at night for those purchasing green energy.

The desalination plant in Wonthaggi claim to use 100% sustainable electricity.
My question is , do they operate so that the plant is mainly used when renewable electricity available?

To me, it should have its own 100Mw solar farm , and only desalinate water when they produce electricity.
If they don't need the water , sell it to the grid.

The purchasing of "sustainable electricity" does not put any incentive onto the organisation to utilize ACTUAL sustainable electricity.

the alternative solution is people pay for grid power or "green power"

when green power is not available, then their power is cut off (including the misleading industries you refer to)

 

[kranky al]

what is relevant in energy markets in power production. You are presenting stats irrelevant to the topic but if you look within the data you posted, it highlights the failings of Germany.

we have seen Germany's failed $1.5 trillion 45 year fiasco deliver dirty power. yet Ontarion, Norway, Sweden, France, Tassie, NZ, much of South America, Himachal India, Yukon, Iceland etc deliver clean energy.

Germany's model is failed not only in CO2 but also security of supply, geo-political risk, funding war and expansionist regimes, expensive and unreliable.



Should Australia follow Germany's failed model?

How has it failed when their co2 overall and per head has come down whilst ours has gone up

 

[kranky al]

what is relevant in energy markets in power production. You are presenting stats irrelevant to the topic but if you look within the data you posted, it highlights the failings of Germany.

we have seen Germany's failed $1.5 trillion 45 year fiasco deliver dirty power. yet Ontarion, Norway, Sweden, France, Tassie, NZ, much of South America, Himachal India, Yukon, Iceland etc deliver clean energy.

Germany's model is failed not only in CO2 but also security of supply, geo-political risk, funding war and expansionist regimes, expensive and unreliable.



Should Australia follow Germany's failed model?

You keep saying “dont present irrelevant stats”

In the same posts that you accuse germany of producing dirty power.

The stats i present show germany’s co2 production has gotten far lower per person and over all since the 70’s

Tell me: What stats should i show to gainsay accusations of producing dirty power?

The national consumption of funking B.O basher?

YOURE THE FUNKING ONE SAYING THEIR POWER IS DIRTY

SHOW US SOME FUNKING STATS TO BACK UP YOUR BULLSHIT ARGUMENT OR FUNK OFF

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Indicator: Greenhouse gas emissions

www.umweltbundesamt.de

In 2011 Germany "decided " to start phasing out their nuclear plants.

In the last two years Carbon emissions have increased.

 

[Power Raid]

You keep saying “dont present irrelevant stats”

In the same posts that you accuse germany of producing dirty power.

The stats i present show germany’s co2 production has gotten far lower per person and over all since the 70’s

Tell me: What stats should i show to gainsay accusations of producing dirty power?

The national consumption of funking B.O basher?

YOURE THE FUNKING ONE SAYING THEIR POWER IS DIRTY

SHOW US SOME FUNKING STATS TO BACK UP YOUR BULLSHIT ARGUMENT OR FUNK OFF

Do you believe an outcome 10 times worse than the leader is a good outcome for Dirty Germany?

Is Dirty Germany’s 10 times worse outcome worth waiting 50 years and $1.5 trillion?

Should we follow Dirty Germany in this climate emergency?

Should we have blood on our hands like Dirty Germany?




Oh and what stats? The stat that says Dirty Germany produces a ten times worse outcome says enough. But you seem to get all emotional that the stat doesn’t suit your religious belief.

Why not just accept the stat and facts and build your beliefs around the facts? Or explain how a ten times worse outcome is worth waiting 50+ years?

 

[Power Raid]

How has it failed when their co2 overall and per head has come down whilst ours has gone up

Because Dirty Germanys CO2 per kWh is 10 times worse, even 30 times worse, against world leaders.

Should we follow Dirty Germanys failed model or follow Tassie, NZ, Ontario, France, Sweden, much of South America, Yukon and Iceland?

Should we risk the environment in a climate emergency, waste $1.5 trillion, lose 50 years and have blood on our hands? Or just follow successful energy models, that delivered in the 1980s?

 

[kranky al]

Do you believe an outcome 10 times worse than the leader is a good outcome for Dirty Germany?

Is Dirty Germany’s 10 times worse outcome worth waiting 50 years and $1.5 trillion?

Should we follow Dirty Germany in this climate emergency?

Should we have blood on our hands like Dirty Germany?




Oh and what stats? The stat that says Dirty Germany produces a ten times worse outcome says enough. But you seem to get all emotional that the stat doesn’t suit your religious belief.

Why not just accept the stat and facts and build your beliefs around the facts? Or explain how a ten times worse outcome is worth waiting 50+ years?

The facts are, germany’s co2 output is 2/3rds what it was in the 70’s whilst its population has grown.

Do i think they should have abruptly closed their nuke plants - no

But they have improved. If we had copied them, we would have improved - instead we have got many orders worse.

Should we look to best practise, yesz.

Should you compare germanys solar solutions with ours? Hell no, we get way more sun - whole orders of way more sun.

Should you outright lie and dribble on about dirty power when their co2 output and output per person keeps reducing whilst our keeps climbing

Funk no - any country that’s going down is doing far better than us.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

How has it failed when their co2 overall and per head has come down whilst ours has gone up

They do a lot of cool stuff in Europe no-one here really thinks about.
Double Glazing.
Heating apartments with waste heat from power stations.

 

[Power Raid]

You keep saying “dont present irrelevant stats”

In the same posts that you accuse germany of producing dirty power.

The stats i present show germany’s co2 production has gotten far lower per person and over all since the 70’s

Tell me: What stats should i show to gainsay accusations of producing dirty power?

The national consumption of funking B.O basher?

YOURE THE FUNKING ONE SAYING THEIR POWER IS DIRTY

SHOW US SOME FUNKING STATS TO BACK UP YOUR BULLSHIT ARGUMENT OR FUNK OFF

 

[Power Raid]

The facts are, germany’s co2 output is 2/3rds what it was in the 70’s whilst its population has grown.

Do i think they should have abruptly closed their nuke plants - no

But they have improved. If we had copied them, we would have improved - instead we have got many orders worse.

Should we look to best practise, yesz.

Should you compare germanys solar solutions with ours? Hell no, we get way more sun - whole orders of way more sun.

Should you outright lie and dribble on about dirty power when their co2 output and output per person keeps reducing whilst our keeps climbing

Funk no - any country that’s going down is doing far better than us.

we were talking about power generation and the reality is Germay's Model is Dirty

Do you believe we should follow their model and accept an outcome 10 times worse than the leaders?

a simple yes or no?



in regards to other initiatives, perhaps we should look at what Germany has done well.



In regards to solar, please identify a single jurisdiction on the planet that has a renewables strategy that delivers clean energy (14-70g CO2 per kwh) that doesn't rely upon nuclear of hydro. This suggests your position on "but we get more sun (and I've even chucked in wind for you), doesn't hold water.

 

[Power Raid]

How has it failed when their co2 overall and per head has come down whilst ours has gone up

the difference in our discussion is you are comparing Germany to Australia

where I am comparing Germany to leading such as NZ, Ontario, france, Tassie, Yukon, Sweden, Norway etc. Then asking should we follow dirty Germany or follow the nations that have achieved results 10 to 30 times better than Germany

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Its a good day for Victoria.

At the moment, ( low demand day ) about 2GW wind, 2GW Solar and 3GW Coal.
Prices at the moment are negative? They were $300/mwh before the sun came up.

Tasmania are importing around 30% of their electricity from Victoria. ( 407 Mw ).

Just reading about Basslink in wikipedia. Doesn't really make me think investing in much longer cables to Singapore would be a great idea. They had a fault in the cable offshore in 2015. Took a while to fix it.
---------------------------------------------------------

On 12 November 2021, the companies that owned and operated the Basslink undersea power cable between Tasmania and Victoria were placed into voluntary administration. The company owed $A40 million to the Tasmanian state government and Hydro—Tasmania for the 2015 outage.

On 10 February 2022, the Tasmanian Government through Hydro Tasmania terminated the Basslink Services Agreement (BSA) contract.[14] The interconnector cable would remain in service while negotiations continue with the administrators of Basslink to alter contract terms during the period of receivership, with Hydro Tasmania offering a one month extension of key BSA terms as an interim solution whilst alternative arrangements are discussed.[15] However, this proposed interim arrangement was rejected by Basslink on 16 February 2022

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Everything would work better if it was integrated.

For example, Aluminium smelters need lots of uninterrupted electricity , they can't allow the aluminium to solidify.
The drawback for molten salt batteries is that they require several hundred degrees to keep the salt molten to operate.

Solar Power Station, Molten Salt Batteries, Aluminium Smelter....may i introduce you to each other.