NO TROLLS EDDIE BETTS, JOSH JENKINS & the Crow's Camp. A knife, a harness and the ‘power stance’: Eddie Betts reveals ‘cult-like’ training camp

[Ricketz]

Didn't see it. What did he say?

Cheers

I'd have to go back to get the word for word but when the AFLPA was raised he wouldn't cut excuses and said if they aren't there to protect the players then what are they there for - it silenced the rest of the panel, and they quickly moved on.

However the silence was damning - like an explanation point to his comment.

 

[Soggy2112]

I'd have to go back to get the word for word but when the AFLPA was raised he wouldn't cut excuses and said if they aren't there to protect the players then what are they there for - it silenced the rest of the panel, and they quickly moved on.

However the silence was damning - like an explanation point to his comment.

I think Riewoldt has had a bone to pick with the AFLPA (and it sounds like rightfully so) for some time. He’s gone hard at them about the Patrick Bines and Sam Fisher stories and now this.

 

[Bluelegs]

I think Riewoldt has had a bone to pick with the AFLPA (and it sounds like rightfully so) for some time. He’s gone hard at them about the Patrick Bines and Sam Fisher stories and now this.

Wouldn't be surprised if he raised things with them as a player and saw no action take place

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Good idea, compensation fixes everything. I've always thought to myself, why didn't anyone at the camp stand up and say enough is enough? Where's the leadership in that? All good and well to come out now and say this and that, but at the time did anyone stand up for themselves? Their mates?

Hard for me to say, I wasn't there, but whenever I have been through a s**t time, I just move on, heal, never think or mention it again.

An apology has already been given, has it not? I don't know, I'm pretty out of loop, I have no business in getting involved with it, probably shouldn't even respond or read this anymore.

What an extraordinarily strange post.

That sounds like the rambings of a lunatic.

 

[Festerz]

Exclusive footage of the Board meeting:

 

[Sqotty from office works]

[QUOTE="freddy mercury, post: 76007844, member: , why didn't anyone at the camp stand up and say enough is enough?
Where's the leadership in that?
All good and well to come out now and say this and that,
but at the time did anyone stand up for themselves? Their mates?


[/QUOTE]
You're right, there was no LEADERSHIP.
But there was worse to come.
After 4 years none of these immature little boys has grown the nuts to actually stand up and say," at the time I was so silly and should've stood up to this insane bullying and immature tribal rubbish"
Unfortunately nobody seems to have grown the nuts to admit how immature they were.
Life goes on.
Lesson not learned.

PS Apologies for the camp are empty.
Apologies for your own deficiency are accepted.

 

[Soggy2112]

[QUOTE="freddy mercury, post: 76007844, member: , why didn't anyone at the camp stand up and say enough is enough?
Where's the leadership in that?
All good and well to come out now and say this and that,
but at the time did anyone stand up for themselves? Their mates?

You're right, there was no LEADERSHIP.
But there was worse to come.
After 4 years none of these immature little boys has grown the nuts to actually stand up and say," at the time I was so silly and should've stood up to this insane bullying and immature tribal rubbish"
Unfortunately nobody seems to have grown the nuts to admit how immature they were.
Life goes on.
Lesson not learned.

PS Apologies for the camp are empty.
Apologies for your own deficiency are accepted.
[/QUOTE]

Betts does just that in the book.

Bryce Gibbs has done so as well.

I really hope Walker and Sloane follow suit, however I’m not sure if they can. According to Jenkins the club signed confidentiality agreements on their behalf, I don’t know if that means that while they’re still employed by the club they can’t actually speak about what Betts, Jenkins and Gibbs have.

 

[Proper Gander]

Until now I had imagined that these silly, homoerotic weekends where guys get set upon by mock SAS and screamed at, then get to wave their junk at each other and select a spirit name were really old hat? A quick internet search indicates that ManKind Project is still going strong though. I imagine the the usual clientele are more along the lines of disgruntled pot-bellied accountants with spousal problems.

This whole CM s**t sounds like a reworking of that ‘inner warrior’ formula, except the focus on recapturing masculinity somehow stolen by ‘women’ has been replaced by ‘the Richmond Man’. The rest sounds the same, a bunch of quasi unscientific self help cliches, wrapped up in a kind of mishmash of cultural appropriation. I like that they decided to appropriate and misrepresent some First Nation People’s customs and traditions, which is a nice Australian slant rather than misunderstanding Native American culture which is usually how these things go.

Of course one big difference with things like the ManKind project and this camp is that numbskulls actually get to choose to fork out to participate in the ManKind project where it sounds as though Adelaide players where left pretty short on details. Unsurprising really the offer of a weekend with some clown with a fake gun representing the Richmond Man strapping you in a harness and shouting private information about you in front of a group of your colleagues doesn’t sound like something to attract volunteers. Maybe Tex? That would surely be about it.

Also was it CM or Adelaide Football Club that claimed that they got the okay for the program from an Aboriginal Elder? How do you go about that? Call rent-an-elder? Given the numerous tribes, customs and languages is there some kind role that is a generalist elder?

 

[Festerz]

CM Directors have said today that all testimonial stuff from crow players and officials relating to the Camp will be removed from their website this week.

I wonder if this will be removed as well - a 3 part interview with CM Directors and Counsellors on the Camp done by Graham Cornes in September 2020:

The directors of Collective Mind, who ran Adelaide Crows’ 2018 pre-season camp, break their silence and reveal the true story of what happened and what didn't happen, and dispel the myths once and for all.

Acknowledgement to MightyBloods for posting the link in the Rumours thread.

Adelaide Crows Camp: Collective Mind directors speak to Graham Cornes​

Part 3 includes an interview with facilitator Wolfgang Wildgrace who details the 'right of passage process' conducted with 'Group 1' which included Eddie Betts and Josh Jenkins

11

Josh Jenkins

Age

35

Ht

200cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.1

4star

HB

3.8

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.6

5star

.

The first part of this is described as the challenge where 'the player is confronted with his immature masculine traits such as selfishness, lack of integrity, lack of discipline, lack of respect blah, blah blah. Some of the comments made include:

'Absolutely did not include any abuse whatsoever'.

'No personal abuse or information was used in this process.'

'No resistance or complaints at the Camp. Everyone bought in'.

'We wanted to make sure that the culture of Indigenous participants were honoured and we had permission from Aboriginal Elders to use customs and practices'

Old mate Shill Cornes compares what happened during the 'challenge' process like someone yelling your mother wears gumboots as a player is running in to kick a goal. FMD.

Totally at odds with what we now know happened.

Hearing the Director make reference to players statements about it making them better husbands and fathers is just hilarious given we know that was part of a prepared script given to them. And he actually refers to the feeding frenzy reporting about what happened as 'crazy town'.

And one surprise. Collective Mind wanted to sit down with the media to address what was being said when the story first broke. But they were prevented from doing so by the Crows. It was left to Brett Burton

Brett Burton

Age

45

Ht

185cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

10.4

4star

HB

2.8

2star

M

6.0

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.2

5star

No current season stats available

D

14.4

4star

K

12.0

5star

HB

2.4

3star

M

8.4

5star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.8

5star

and Don Pyke to front the media and refute what was being said - both of them having only practical information about what actually happened in all the groups and why.

So it was the AFC Board who were the ones imposing a cone of silence on anyone involved in the camp.

And CM wanted to conduct a follow up with the players at the AFC some time after the camp ended. But again the AFC Board refused to allow that to happen. Who stopped any follow through when player concerns started to surface.

This is why players felt they had no avenue to speak about their concerns and ended up writing books and issuing statements after they had cut their ties with the Crows.

 

[ams4crows]

So are CM saying the Betts and Jenkins are lying?? When are CM gonna be held accountable?

The club ****ed up, no question and all the players deserve some sort of compensation as they were let down by the AFC the AFL and the AFLPA

But it's time the AFL stand up against these CM stooges

 

[western royboy]

So are CM saying the Betts and Jenkins are lying?? When are CM gonna be held accountable?

The club *ed up, no question and all the players deserve some sort of compensation as they were let down by the AFC the AFL and the AFLPA

But it's time the AFL stand up against these CM stooges

Well Greg Griffin will ensure someone pays a price, logic says CM are finished commercially, it just depends who the players elect to sue but I’d suggest their former employer is looking pretty good

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Josh Jenkins

11

Josh Jenkins

Age

35

Ht

200cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.1

4star

HB

3.8

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.6

5star

is on SEN soon.

 

[Festerz]

So are CM saying the Betts and Jenkins are lying?? When are CM gonna be held accountable?

The club *ed up, no question and all the players deserve some sort of compensation as they were let down by the AFC the AFL and the AFLPA

But it's time the AFL stand up against these CM stooges

The same AFL that has a controlling interest and the effective legal owner of the Adelaide Football Club that hired these CM stooges?

The same AFL whose Integrity Unit did F-All when the allegations kept surfacing in the media over the past 4 years?

Collective Mind insist that their processes and protocols were signed off by the Adelaide Football Club. Management employees of the Adelaide Football Club participated in the camp process.

IMHO Legal action against the AFC, individual Club Directors - including then Football Director and current AFC Board member Mark Ricciuto (and therefore the AFL as the owner of the AFC) is the only effective way to ensure corrective justice and closure takes place on this matter.

 

[1970crow]

Not sure if anyone heard it, but on Adelaide radio on Saturday morning on triple m, the panel/hosts defended riciutto immensely

what a shock, if you're on radio in Adelaide you're a club ambassador. It's one big protection racket.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Is Ricciuto desperately holding on to his board spot so he can use club financial resources if he is sued?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Is Ricciuto desperately holding on to his board spot so he can use club financial resources if he is sued?

No it's because he was only good at footy and has failed at every other job he has parleyed from that so with no one able to oust him from the board it's the only safe job he has.

 

[Richard Pryor]

And one surprise. Collective Mind wanted to sit down with the media to address what was being said when the story first broke. But they were prevented from doing so by the Crows.

Between Woulfe's general kookiness in what he's said elsewhere and Jenkins account of a facilitator telling him he had to sit under a tree for days until the voices in his head stopped, would seem to me pretty cut and dry Adelaide knew they'd come across as lunatics if they fronted the media with their crackpot philosophy.

A lot of their damage control PR on their website is completely debunked by what Betts and Jenkins have gone on record with now. Couple that with the reference in one of their stories (I think Jenkins?) about the Crows telling him they'd somehow signed him up for an NDA without his knowledge and CM seem like a completely screwed up cult who actively conceal what they're doing from public scrutiny.

 

[Festerz]

Is Ricciuto desperately holding on to his board spot so he can use club financial resources if he is sued?

Highly doubtful.

I have found this article provides the best easy to understand overview of personal liability for Board members of incorporated organisations such as the AFC:

Board liability and negligence

communitydirectors.com.au

This paragraph in particular:

When you join a board you are accepting a fiduciary duty - that is, a duty to act in good faith for the benefit of, or in the interests of, the organisation you're overseeing. Any breach of that duty places board members at risk. The effect of incorporation is to limit liability. However, board members and officers of incorporated associations do have a risk of incurring liability if a personal breach of duty by them causes personal injury or damage to property. They can be liable if they directly caused the loss or damage or if they authorised and directed the actions which caused the event giving rise to liability.

Ricciuto has a dual responsibility as both a Board member AND Director of Football Operations for AFC. I would think his duty of care in relation to what happened at the camp and subsequently was pretty clear. But I am NOT a practicing lawyer and so probably have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Until now I had imagined that these silly, homoerotic weekends where guys get set upon by mock SAS and screamed at, then get to wave their junk at each other and select a spirit name were really old hat? A quick internet search indicates that ManKind Project is still going strong though. I imagine the the usual clientele are more along the lines of disgruntled pot-bellied accountants with spousal problems.

This whole CM s**t sounds like a reworking of that ‘inner warrior’ formula, except the focus on recapturing masculinity somehow stolen by ‘women’ has been replaced by ‘the Richmond Man’. The rest sounds the same, a bunch of quasi unscientific self help cliches, wrapped up in a kind of mishmash of cultural appropriation. I like that they decided to appropriate and misrepresent some First Nation People’s customs and traditions, which is a nice Australian slant rather than misunderstanding Native American culture which is usually how these things go.

Of course one big difference with things like the ManKind project and this camp is that numbskulls actually get to choose to fork out to participate in the ManKind project where it sounds as though Adelaide players where left pretty short on details. Unsurprising really the offer of a weekend with some clown with a fake gun representing the Richmond Man strapping you in a harness and shouting private information about you in front of a group of your colleagues doesn’t sound like something to attract volunteers. Maybe Tex? That would surely be about it.

Also was it CM or Adelaide Football Club that claimed that they got the okay for the program from an Aboriginal Elder? How do you go about that? Call rent-an-elder? Given the numerous tribes, customs and languages is there some kind role that is a generalist elder?

I don't really know all that went on at the Adelaide camp (other that what's in the media) but it does indeed sound military-inspired. There are aspects of military training that are specifically designed to to dehumanise the subjects and this is achieved... really... by inflicting serious emotional and mental abuse on them so that they become, effectively, damaged.

The reasoning behind this is that it makes them effective killers, which is their job.

I don't know on what planet anybody thinks this would be useful in other fields. I can't think of a single other (legitimate) profession where trying to turn people into sociopaths would be of benefit. I assume it's driven by some flimsy reference to driving focus or something. In any case, it's very misguided.

 

[Festerz]

I don't really know all that went on at the Adelaide camp (other that what's in the media) but it does indeed sound military-inspired.

It does because it is.

At least one of the facilitators at the camp has had extensive ADF experience including as a rifleman in tours to Timor Leste and Afghanistan.



There is nothing inherently wrong with this and as someone who went through a management program run by the ADF I was extremely impressed with the leadership skills I evidenced across the various bases I visited. Many of those skills are readily transferrable to other workplaces.

But, the issue is (as you say) the appropriateness of using some of the more extreme psychological aspects of military based training into a camp of this nature.

 

[Soggy2112]

I don't really know all that went on at the Adelaide camp (other that what's in the media) but it does indeed sound military-inspired. There are aspects of military training that are specifically designed to to dehumanise the subjects and this is achieved... really... by inflicting serious emotional and mental abuse on them so that they become, effectively, damaged.

The reasoning behind this is that it makes them effective killers, which is their job.

I don't know on what planet anybody thinks this would be useful in other fields. I can't think of a single other (legitimate) profession where trying to turn people into sociopaths would be of benefit. I assume it's driven by some flimsy reference to driving focus or something. In any case, it's very misguided.

I’m no expert, but isn’t a part of military training also designed to filter out those who may not handle a real life battle? Don’t see how that’s in anyway necessary at a football club or any other workplace.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I’m no expert, but isn’t a part of military training also designed to filter out those who may not handle a real life battle? Don’t see how that’s in anyway necessary at a football club or any other workplace.

There's all kinds of military training, the disciplines are very broad. As pointed out above, some things may be transferrable to other areas. "Military" training as such isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Some of the more extreme, special ops type stuff is indeed designed to dehumanise the troops and turn them into... without putting too fine a point on it... murderers. Merciless killers. Cos that's sometimes their job.

I think some of what is being described... being tied helpless in a harness while you have psychologically damaging things shouted at you in front of a group... sounds like it's modelled on that.

I can't think of a useful non-military purpose for that. I mean it's designed to turn the subject into somewhat of a sociopath. A lot of these guys have shocking, shocking issues if and when they leave the military.

I think the reality is the people running this program had no real idea what they were doing and thus there's been damage done. Gibbs said it, it totally ****ed them as a group.