News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Coach Killer]

100%? How on earth do you know that? It’s only one side of story for crying out loud. What is wrong with you. Can’t we just wait until the investigation is played out and both sides have their voices heard. Geez

I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the defendents are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

Wow. And around in circles it goes. I know people are emotional but please let’s keep it a bit more balanced

 

[Wingnut19]

I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the accusers are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.

Lol. Woweee
It’s prob best you don’t ever apply for a gig in the justice system mate

 

[Coach Killer]

I don’t need to wait for anything they are 100% Guilty.

I don’t require another investigation by the AFL to prove anything. The victims and their families are not changing their stories, the people who have already conducted the investigation are not changing the report and the defendants are running and hiding behind lawyers instead of addressing the claims immediately.

If you want to wait till Prince George becomes King to form your opinion you can. There isn’t anything wrong with me, I stand with the families, the club and the people who conducted the investigation. None of them are lying. If you wish to stand with the accused you can.

Apologies I corrected my post.

 

[Dipper Here]

9, 8 and 7 years ago, on or around this day, Clarko and his highly decorated servants burned out our pleasure receptors. Success and silverware made us relevant.

Today we are entangled in a moral, legal and interpretative complex mess. Our relevance today centres around a question: where to now?

We have been one of the greatest footy clubs of the modern game. But what does our success amount to if we act like a bunch of ”campaigners” and attack each other like campaigners?

Good people and those innocently close to them are hurting on both sides. Maybe this is the time we really need to stand up as a family club.

We don’t have much control over the question of where to now. That will play out despite our ramblings here.

But we do have control over how each of us can act at this low point.

 

[Back One Out]

The fish rots at the head...

 

[Back One Out]

Even better is it doesn't matter what the past of the person is, nobody deserves their boss or other senior staff telling them to have an abortion, or cut off their family or partner if they want to keep their job

We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of a lot less incriminating than bosses making ultimatums and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

There is no Absolute Truth. Just people's interpretation which is real for them, but different maybe from someone else.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions. Maybe they'll just deny deny deny...

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then, we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)

 

[TylerDurden]

We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of lot less incriminating than bosses making demands and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions (or maybe they'll just deny deny deny...)

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)

100%

Couldn't have said it better.

It's beyond the AFL now. It'll be decided in the courts.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

We don't know if that was the ultimatum. That is the accusers' recollection of events.

Possible, or more likely the players were messing up their footy careers due to off field distractions getting in the way and this is what caused coaches to intervene and ask the player "Do you wish to succeed in the AFL? You're running out of time. You need to focus. You should do this..."

That would still be an overreach by the coaches and an unethical abuse of their power. But it would be a hell of a lot less incriminating than bosses making ultimatums and saying "Do this, or it's your job." A bit more of a grey area, I think, in terms of the AFL giving them life bans.



People really need to chill and stop acting so polarised about choosing sides and who to believe.

Everyone always has their own version of the truth. It's not to deny the players' version of events and and say they're telling outright lies. It's just a fact of life that things happen where one person (or group of people) will come away with their version of what was said, while others will come away with a different version or interpretation of events. Happens all the time... I see it on here... In this thread, even.

There is no Absolute Truth. Just people's interpretation which is real for them, but different maybe from someone else.

I would say let's wait for Clarkson and Fagan to present their version of the events. But I fear we may have gone past that stage with lawyers now involved and instructing people to tread carefully and be careful about making any incriminating admissions. Maybe they'll just deny deny deny...

This will probably end up in the courts, and even then, we'll probably never know the full truth. (A bit like the Essendon drugs scandal, in that respect.)

The black people lie.
Yep.

 

[Back One Out]

The black people lie.
Yep.

Grow up.

If you don't want to read my post and absorb any of the meaning of what I wrote, then please don't reply to me.

Spare me your race-baiting bullshit

 

[Roddy]

Seany just said a whole lot without saying anything....

 

[Wingnut19]

The black people lie.
Yep.

Seriously. Piss off mate

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

The black people lie.
Yep.

Room temp

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Grow up.

If you don't want to read my post and absorb any of the meaning of what I wrote, then please don't reply to me.

Spare me your race-baiting bullshit

You said you don't believe them.
What more can you say to pull back from that?

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Seriously. Piss off mate

Seriously piss off mate
He doesn't believe the accusations.
He doesn't believe the aboriginal women .
Racist and misogynistic.

 

[Titch3Votes0MooreAA]

The black people lie.
Yep.

With all due respect, claiming that everyone is racist for wanting to hear the whole story won't help your argument. I regret to say that I believe it to be true, but we must learn the complete story and what happened. That's if anything occurred at all.

 

[matey]

Burgs just spoke on ch7 and he has pretty much been consistent to what’s been said by other ex players of the club during the period in question. He was in shock when he first heard of the allegations from the report. He heard nothing about it while playing and feels really sorry for the players and family involved and doesn’t want to make any comments on the run until a full investigation is conducted/completed before making his judgement and talking about it further as he has been getting a lot of questions over the last week.

 

[LuckyHawk]

Everyone's opinion here counts for very little as no one knows for sure what happened.

 

[Off The Couch]

Everyone's opinion here counts for very little as no one knows for sure what happened.

Oh I think we know it happened
It’s not a lone voice
What we don’t know is the context

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

With all due respect, claiming that everyone is racist for wanting to hear the whole story won't help your argument. I regret to say that I believe it to be true, but we must learn the complete story and what happened. That's if anything occurred at all.

With all due respect not believing 3 similar and damning allegations by the marginalised leaves you open to claims of racism and misogyny.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Seany just said a whole lot without saying anything....

Who?

 

[Back One Out]

You said you don't believe them.
What more can you say to pull back from that?

I made a lengthy post about "the truth" always being a subjective thing, especially when it comes to difficult, emotionally-charged conversations between people.

An employee might swear blind the boss gave him the ultimatum, "Do this, or it's your job". That's his honest memory of the events.

Off the record, the boss might say "Ian was all messed up, going nowhere fast with his footy, missing training sessions. He wasn't taking responsibility, kept making excuses and blaming his personal problems at home. So I told him he needed to focus more on his footy if he wished to succeed. I only suggested to him that he should think about leaving his girlfriend and paying for her abortion. I was just giving him some fatherly advice. But I never forced anyone into doing that. I told him to think about it. It was his decision."

^^
This is not necessarily what I believe occurred. Just me presenting a hypothetical version of what the coach might say. I have no way of knowing how Clarkson will respond to that accusation. It still wouldn't make everything right either, nor mean that it wasn't an abuse of his power & authority.



My point is... what exactly is the "truth" if player & coach have two different subjective recollections about what was said and how things went down?

If Clarkson did exactly what I wrote above, it could still be construed 100% by the footballer as him making an ultimatum - do this, or it's your job - even though the coach might swear blind that it was never his intention and he was only "trying to help" Ian navigate his way through various issues and succeed in life.

Or perhaps Clarkson may have thought he was only offering "advice" and trying to help, but the actual words which came out of his mouth were "You can't let this messy relationship continue, son. The way things are going, you're going to get delisted. You need to get rid of her and pay for her abortion."

^^These words coming from the coach could only be interpreted by the footballer as an ultimatum "do this, or it's your job", even though the coach might subjectively remember the conversation differently.

 

[Mercy Seat]

‘We were watching those blokes break’: The Hawthorn women who would not stay silent

The prevailing view at Hawthorn is that a small group of women have led the decision to make public the allegations that could radically reshape football’s landscape.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Crankyhawk]

Were indigenous players singled out for this kind of treatment? There's a big difference between this kind of thing happening across the player list, and the club treating indigenous players differently.

Difficult to answer as the report only asked the indigenous players (those were the terms) a separate one should be done canvassing all players imo

 

[burner1]

I’m not convinced we’ll ever hear the full story. We’ll get the conclusions of an investigation but expect any specifics/context relating the incidents in media will be kept private to respect the privacy of those involved and given the subject matter (even though they leaked their side to media).

That’s going to be challenging for some to take irrespective of outcome as won’t stop speculation.

A lot to play out here - afl has said could take months.