Opinion Why are the interstate teams so bad? How do we fix them?

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It's fact that of the last 10 premiers only 1 has been a non Victorian team. I believe free agency rules have greatly assisted Victorian teams, which is proven by free agency being brought in at the end of the 2012 season. AFL needs to make Victorian teams give up something for free agents or give non Victorian teams higher salary caps so they can entice these free agents to sign with them instead of the Victorian teams, as they will then be able to offer more money.
 

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kaiserchief13 said:
It's fact that of the last 10 premiers only 1 has been a non Victorian team. I believe free agency rules have greatly assisted Victorian teams, which is proven by free agency being brought in at the end of the 2012 season. AFL needs to make Victorian teams give up something for free agents or give non Victorian teams higher salary caps so they can entice these free agents to sign with them instead of the Victorian teams, as they will then be able to offer more money.
Click to expand...
Why don't you just develop better players?
 
The biggest issue is the talent pool. The reality is you look at some of the drafts and 15-18 of the top 20 picks are from the TAC cup. We can sit around and hurl abuse at a Tom Boyd, Bailey Smith, etc, but the reality is it is nearly impossible to overcome the discrepancy. There is a reason the same teams have won the past 15 years. They got good and then attracted more than their fair share of the talent that moved clubs. There aren't many clubs that have drafted their way to a flag. They still needed to trade for 2-3 essential parts of their premiership side. It is no surprise that SA were good in the late 90s to early 2000s as it reflected the state of SA football at the time. If you have a look at the state of origin results from the mid 80s to late 90s WA/SA/Vic would have all had a similar amount of wins, there was no dominant side. There was sensational talent coming out of SA. Adelaide's team 1997-98 was full of SA players both drafted, but also guys like Kym Koster, Darren Jarman and Malcolm blight all South Australians who came home. Port's 2004 team was full of not just SA players but Port Magpies. We get Tredrea as a zone selection, Michael Wilson (I am not sure how) and then lure Port players back including Wanganeen, Pickett, Wakelin, etc. Throw in other South Australians like Dean Brogan, Brendan Lade, Cornes x 2 and that is the bones of the Port team. People point the finger at the salary cap of Brisbane, but we have seen over the past 10 years it doesn't mean much. People will take less to win. Brisbane's leg up was from the poaching of Fitzroy players. About 5-6 of their premiership team were either directly taken from that pool or were involved in trades with Fitzroy players. The outlier is WC who have consistently bobbed up and that is reflective of the fact that WA football is as strong as it ever was. They will always have strong sides as they will get access to their fair share of talent. They will bob up every 10-15 years as long as WA continues to produce enough quality footballers.

These issues combined with several developments over the past 10 or so years has made it almost impossible for a non vic side to win. The expansion sides are a disaster. The established clubs hold most of their Vic based players. GWS and GC just don't. The top 2-3 Vic clubs at the time just pull players out of those clubs at will. Even mediocre teams get their fill. Richmond won 3 flags but they are no longer a great team and in fact have poorly managed the last couple of years letting the old boys play too long. Are they going to get punished for it? Well they're about to get 2 A grade Midfielders so probably not. Melbourne were able to get Lever/ May when they were a joke of a club. Collingwood and Essendon are always seemingly getting decent trades done, even when they are complete poo. Compare that to Port and we just can't compete. We absolutely nailed multiple drafts in a row. Found a few diamonds in the rough trading for guys like Aliir/ Mckenzie. We have huge buy in and a good culture. We have one of the loosest salary caps because of that culture. We simply cannot go out a buy a player like other premiership sides have. We had 900k on the table for Merrett last year, We had 650-700kx6 for Dunkley this year. We just can't pry players loose that other sides want to keep. On top of that the trades for SA players are often more expensive than others. We always seem to have to cough up max value even when there are risks (ASADA, injuries, etc) and often get chiseled the other way. The Vic clubs have an endless supply of players to choose from so missing out doesn't matter, there is always another trade on the horizon. Everyone knows we don't want to miss out and we always get squeezed for a bit more whether cash or picks.

There are some teams that got really close to flags in the last 20 years. If Adelaide could have found a gun KPF in the early 2000s, they would have won an extra couple of flags and they would have been the Geelong of the early AFL era. We were 1 good midfielder away from flags in 2014/20. Sydney were 3 less cheating umpires away from a flag in 2016 and having won 3 flags in a decade. Even Freo got fairly close in 2013. It's pretty easy to get close to a flag. A couple of clubs do it most years. If a Victorian club had those lists, they would have won flags. They would have got the 1-3 players missing and won. The reality is the equalization is supposed to give equal resources to teams and the premiers find a way to create more. When top 3 players keep on going to top clubs as F/Ss and top 4 clubs get to plunder teams outside the 8 through Free agency, I honestly can't see where Port's next flag comes from. We have a s**t ton of young talent, we'll go close again sometime in the next 5 years, but I reckon there is always going to be a team that is better. Somewhere in the cycle they will overtake us because they can go and grab a Tom Lynch or Stephen May level talent and we can't. You would say the same for Brisbane, and Adelaide. GWS and GC are miles off. Freo just seem to lose to many players to jag one. If Sydney win one, it will be the last one for a while as half of Melbourne will demand the academies get shut down. Other than WC or maybe Sydney, I just don't see where the next flag comes from.
 
PrinceCharles said:
Why do 'all good players want to play for Victorian sides' then?
Click to expand...
Freo made finals and won a final.

Griffin Logue, Blake Acres and Rory Lobb want out.

All 3 blokes played in that Elim final vs the dogs.

All 3 are western Australian.

All 3 want to head to Victorian clubs.

So explain....
 
PrisonBars4life said:
The biggest issue is the talent pool. The reality is you look at some of the drafts and 15-18 of the top 20 picks are from the TAC cup. We can sit around and hurl abuse at a Tom Boyd, Bailey Smith, etc, but the reality is it is nearly impossible to overcome the discrepancy. There is a reason the same teams have won the past 15 years. They got good and then attracted more than their fair share of the talent that moved clubs. There aren't many clubs that have drafted their way to a flag. They still needed to trade for 2-3 essential parts of their premiership side. It is no surprise that SA were good in the late 90s to early 2000s as it reflected the state of SA football at the time. If you have a look at the state of origin results from the mid 80s to late 90s WA/SA/Vic would have all had a similar amount of wins, there was no dominant side. There was sensational talent coming out of SA. Adelaide's team 1997-98 was full of SA players both drafted, but also guys like Kym Koster, Darren Jarman and Malcolm blight all South Australians who came home. Port's 2004 team was full of not just SA players but Port Magpies. We get Tredrea as a zone selection, Michael Wilson (I am not sure how) and then lure Port players back including Wanganeen, Pickett, Wakelin, etc. Throw in other South Australians like Dean Brogan, Brendan Lade, Cornes x 2 and that is the bones of the Port team. People point the finger at the salary cap of Brisbane, but we have seen over the past 10 years it doesn't mean much. People will take less to win. Brisbane's leg up was from the poaching of Fitzroy players. About 5-6 of their premiership team were either directly taken from that pool or were involved in trades with Fitzroy players. The outlier is WC who have consistently bobbed up and that is reflective of the fact that WA football is as strong as it ever was. They will always have strong sides as they will get access to their fair share of talent. They will bob up every 10-15 years as long as WA continues to produce enough quality footballers.

These issues combined with several developments over the past 10 or so years has made it almost impossible for a non vic side to win. The expansion sides are a disaster. The established clubs hold most of their Vic based players. GWS and GC just don't. The top 2-3 Vic clubs at the time just pull players out of those clubs at will. Even mediocre teams get their fill. Richmond won 3 flags but they are no longer a great team and in fact have poorly managed the last couple of years letting the old boys play too long. Are they going to get punished for it? Well they're about to get 2 A grade Midfielders so probably not. Melbourne were able to get Lever/ May when they were a joke of a club. Collingwood and Essendon are always seemingly getting decent trades done, even when they are complete poo. Compare that to Port and we just can't compete. We absolutely nailed multiple drafts in a row. Found a few diamonds in the rough trading for guys like Aliir/ Mckenzie. We have huge buy in and a good culture. We have one of the loosest salary caps because of that culture. We simply cannot go out a buy a player like other premiership sides have. We had 900k on the table for Merrett last year, We had 650-700kx6 for Dunkley this year. We just can't pry players loose that other sides want to keep. On top of that the trades for SA players are often more expensive than others. We always seem to have to cough up max value even when there are risks (ASADA, injuries, etc) and often get chiseled the other way. The Vic clubs have an endless supply of players to choose from so missing out doesn't matter, there is always another trade on the horizon. Everyone knows we don't want to miss out and we always get squeezed for a bit more whether cash or picks.

There are some teams that got really close to flags in the last 20 years. If Adelaide could have found a gun KPF in the early 2000s, they would have won an extra couple of flags and they would have been the Geelong of the early AFL era. We were 1 good midfielder away from flags in 2014/20. Sydney were 3 less cheating umpires away from a flag in 2016 and having won 3 flags in a decade. Even Freo got fairly close in 2013. It's pretty easy to get close to a flag. A couple of clubs do it most years. If a Victorian club had those lists, they would have won flags. They would have got the 1-3 players missing and won. The reality is the equalization is supposed to give equal resources to teams and the premiers find a way to create more. When top 3 players keep on going to top clubs as F/Ss and top 4 clubs get to plunder teams outside the 8 through Free agency, I honestly can't see where Port's next flag comes from. We have a s**t ton of young talent, we'll go close again sometime in the next 5 years, but I reckon there is always going to be a team that is better. Somewhere in the cycle they will overtake us because they can go and grab a Tom Lynch or Stephen May level talent and we can't. You would say the same for Brisbane, and Adelaide. GWS and GC are miles off. Freo just seem to lose to many players to jag one. If Sydney win one, it will be the last one for a while as half of Melbourne will demand the academies get shut down. Other than WC or maybe Sydney, I just don't see where the next flag comes from.
Click to expand...
Serious question, would it help SA sides to have academies, so more incentive to develop talent?
 

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PrisonBars4life said:
The biggest issue is the talent pool. The reality is you look at some of the drafts and 15-18 of the top 20 picks are from the TAC cup. We can sit around and hurl abuse at a Tom Boyd, Bailey Smith, etc, but the reality is it is nearly impossible to overcome the discrepancy. There is a reason the same teams have won the past 15 years. They got good and then attracted more than their fair share of the talent that moved clubs. There aren't many clubs that have drafted their way to a flag. They still needed to trade for 2-3 essential parts of their premiership side. It is no surprise that SA were good in the late 90s to early 2000s as it reflected the state of SA football at the time. If you have a look at the state of origin results from the mid 80s to late 90s WA/SA/Vic would have all had a similar amount of wins, there was no dominant side. There was sensational talent coming out of SA. Adelaide's team 1997-98 was full of SA players both drafted, but also guys like Kym Koster, Darren Jarman and Malcolm blight all South Australians who came home. Port's 2004 team was full of not just SA players but Port Magpies. We get Tredrea as a zone selection, Michael Wilson (I am not sure how) and then lure Port players back including Wanganeen, Pickett, Wakelin, etc. Throw in other South Australians like Dean Brogan, Brendan Lade, Cornes x 2 and that is the bones of the Port team. People point the finger at the salary cap of Brisbane, but we have seen over the past 10 years it doesn't mean much. People will take less to win. Brisbane's leg up was from the poaching of Fitzroy players. About 5-6 of their premiership team were either directly taken from that pool or were involved in trades with Fitzroy players. The outlier is WC who have consistently bobbed up and that is reflective of the fact that WA football is as strong as it ever was. They will always have strong sides as they will get access to their fair share of talent. They will bob up every 10-15 years as long as WA continues to produce enough quality footballers.

These issues combined with several developments over the past 10 or so years has made it almost impossible for a non vic side to win. The expansion sides are a disaster. The established clubs hold most of their Vic based players. GWS and GC just don't. The top 2-3 Vic clubs at the time just pull players out of those clubs at will. Even mediocre teams get their fill. Richmond won 3 flags but they are no longer a great team and in fact have poorly managed the last couple of years letting the old boys play too long. Are they going to get punished for it? Well they're about to get 2 A grade Midfielders so probably not. Melbourne were able to get Lever/ May when they were a joke of a club. Collingwood and Essendon are always seemingly getting decent trades done, even when they are complete poo. Compare that to Port and we just can't compete. We absolutely nailed multiple drafts in a row. Found a few diamonds in the rough trading for guys like Aliir/ Mckenzie. We have huge buy in and a good culture. We have one of the loosest salary caps because of that culture. We simply cannot go out a buy a player like other premiership sides have. We had 900k on the table for Merrett last year, We had 650-700kx6 for Dunkley this year. We just can't pry players loose that other sides want to keep. On top of that the trades for SA players are often more expensive than others. We always seem to have to cough up max value even when there are risks (ASADA, injuries, etc) and often get chiseled the other way. The Vic clubs have an endless supply of players to choose from so missing out doesn't matter, there is always another trade on the horizon. Everyone knows we don't want to miss out and we always get squeezed for a bit more whether cash or picks.

There are some teams that got really close to flags in the last 20 years. If Adelaide could have found a gun KPF in the early 2000s, they would have won an extra couple of flags and they would have been the Geelong of the early AFL era. We were 1 good midfielder away from flags in 2014/20. Sydney were 3 less cheating umpires away from a flag in 2016 and having won 3 flags in a decade. Even Freo got fairly close in 2013. It's pretty easy to get close to a flag. A couple of clubs do it most years. If a Victorian club had those lists, they would have won flags. They would have got the 1-3 players missing and won. The reality is the equalization is supposed to give equal resources to teams and the premiers find a way to create more. When top 3 players keep on going to top clubs as F/Ss and top 4 clubs get to plunder teams outside the 8 through Free agency, I honestly can't see where Port's next flag comes from. We have a s**t ton of young talent, we'll go close again sometime in the next 5 years, but I reckon there is always going to be a team that is better. Somewhere in the cycle they will overtake us because they can go and grab a Tom Lynch or Stephen May level talent and we can't. You would say the same for Brisbane, and Adelaide. GWS and GC are miles off. Freo just seem to lose to many players to jag one. If Sydney win one, it will be the last one for a while as half of Melbourne will demand the academies get shut down. Other than WC or maybe Sydney, I just don't see where the next flag comes from.
Click to expand...
you Hit the nail in the head...



AFL has Poured at least 50 million a year in grass roots footy in NSW and Queensland..... Compared that to SA? A measly 1 million a year.

Now you know why West coast and Fremantle are happily owned by the Western Australian Football Comission or the WAFC. It is essentially one branch of the WA government.

From 2002-17, When Both WA clubs played home games in Subiaco oval, Freo only made finals only 6 times in that period, yet posted operating profits of 1-2 million on average each year.


So each year the Eagles and dockers paid $3 million a year to the WAFL to play home games at subi. WAFL would use that money wisely. 2 million went to the WAFL clubs for the Salary cap, another 2 million goes to grass roots footy. The other 2 million is either saved up or spent else where.

Eagles make a massive Profit each year. As long as the eagles are rich, they will have Access to good local WA scouts to get Good teenagers.

As you stated, Crows in 1997-8 had lots of local talent.

Port had a lot of SA guys too in 2004
 
Blue1980 said:
Serious question, would it help SA sides to have academies, so more incentive to develop talent?
Click to expand...

We notionally have indigenous academies which definitely helped lachie jones come on. Maybe. I think Victoria benefit from having the AFL in charge of the TAC cup. There is actually a motivation to grow the pool of talent. The SANFL is run by a bunch of dog c8nts who actively try to undermine us. Our stadium deal is designed to leech as much as they can off the 2 AFL teams (and is probably worse than any other in the country). The rules for the 2 AFL sides change every couple of years and always to our detriment to make sure the Magpies are weak. With our injuries this year, we were playing SANFL reserve standard players and had the AFL listed players regularly playing out of position. The magpies don't have juniors anymore so one of the largest contributors as far as AFL/VFL players over the past 30 years is gone. I'm not sure a healthy number of SA draftees is a priority for the SANFL.
 
kaiserchief13 said:
It's fact that of the last 10 premiers only 1 has been a non Victorian team. I believe free agency rules have greatly assisted Victorian teams, which is proven by free agency being brought in at the end of the 2012 season. AFL needs to make Victorian teams give up something for free agents or give non Victorian teams higher salary caps so they can entice these free agents to sign with them instead of the Victorian teams, as they will then be able to offer more money.
Click to expand...
No. SA & WA need academies like the northern clubs. Not because any of you deserve them but because NSW & QLD sides have them.

COLA is the dumbest thing this sport ever introduced. What you’ve said would be the equivalent of me saying the Dogs, Saints, Cats and Roos deserve their own tier where they get something more than the other Victorian clubs. Why? Because none of them host home finals and get shafted against the big Vics which doesn’t happen in any other sport.
 
PrisonBars4life said:
We notionally have indigenous academies which definitely helped lachie jones come on. Maybe. I think Victoria benefit from having the AFL in charge of the TAC cup. There is actually a motivation to grow the pool of talent. The SANFL is run by a bunch of dog c8nts who actively try to undermine us. Our stadium deal is designed to leech as much as they can off the 2 AFL teams (and is probably worse than any other in the country). The rules for the 2 AFL sides change every couple of years and always to our detriment to make sure the Magpies are weak. With our injuries this year, we were playing SANFL reserve standard players and had the AFL listed players regularly playing out of position. The magpies don't have juniors anymore so one of the largest contributors as far as AFL/VFL players over the past 30 years is gone. I'm not sure a healthy number of SA draftees is a priority for the SANFL.
Click to expand...

See... There is one major flaw and one minor flaw when it came to Port Power taking over the Port Magpies.

One is the moment that happened, Port Magpies junior and country zones were taken away. They were replaced by top ups or amateur players. No chance of the next Scott Hodges or Tim Ginever or Paul Northeast could be produced.

Look how Freo took over peel thunder in the WAFL. Yes the Peel side won 2 WAFL flags in 2016 and 2017. In that 2016 grand final, Of the 21 peel players in that team, 17 were dockers players. The other 4 were Peel blokes. In 2017, The WAFL changed the rules and fair enough. In the 2017 grand final, only 14 of those 21 guys were dockers players, one was Zac dawson.

If I had it my Way. I would of Let Port Magpies keep their junior zones and recruiting zones. On the strict condition they play out of the 21 or 22 magpies listed players, you play a maximum of 14 or 15 Power listed players each week. Then the last 6-8 spots are rotated by Magpies players that can be produced as AFL hopefuls.
 
Sky said:
No. SA & WA need academies like the northern clubs. Not because any of you deserve them but because NSW & QLD sides have them.

COLA is the dumbest thing this sport ever introduced. What you’ve said would be the equivalent of me saying the Dogs, Saints, Cats and Roos deserve their own tier where they get something more than the other Victorian clubs. Why? Because none of them host home finals and get shafted against the big Vics which doesn’t happen in any other sport.
Click to expand...

I don't think new rules are required to balance out the unevenness, they just need to get rid of the s**t rules already in place. FA is the worst culprit. I don't care what the AFLPA wants. 2 Generations ago, the average player probably wasn't even getting an average salary. These days, it is 4-5 times median and 3.5 times the average salary. You want to play AFL with all of its rewards, then you accept its a national comp. If an acceptable trade can't be made, and you want back to Melbourne you are free to sign up for a VFL side. My brother had to go to Sydney for work, has a family and will never return to SA. I have been in Qld for 5 years and am only heading back to SA because my uni career blew up for obvious reasons. Tons of uni friends dispersed interstate and overseas. Plenty of people move because they have to. Maybe it's the wrong forum and maybe its mean spirited but I can't stand Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron. They are everything that is wrong with the competition. Dangerfield entered the draft knowing he wasn't going to move in his first year. He walked out on his first club just as he was hitting his peak. Jeremy Cameron filled his pockets at GWS. Because he and a few others were pushing GWS for every dollar, they started losing players and he's no longer happy at a struggling side. It's clear that there are a few guys on massive unders at Geelong if he's getting 900k. It's a consistent theme at GWS. The young stars ask GWS to 'empty their pockets', they make their money, then all of a sudden, after they have set themselves up financially, it's about team success and culture. Never mind that they are mercenaries who created the culture at GWS.
 
PrisonBars4life said:
I don't think new rules are required to balance out the unevenness, they just need to get rid of the s**t rules already in place. FA is the worst culprit. I don't care what the AFLPA wants. 2 Generations ago, the average player probably wasn't even getting an average salary. These days, it is 4-5 times median and 3.5 times the average salary. You want to play AFL with all of its rewards, then you accept its a national comp. If an acceptable trade can't be made, and you want back to Melbourne you are free to sign up for a VFL side. My brother had to go to Sydney for work, has a family and will never return to SA. I have been in Qld for 5 years and am only heading back to SA because my uni career blew up for obvious reasons. Tons of uni friends dispersed interstate and overseas. Plenty of people move because they have to. Maybe it's the wrong forum and maybe its mean spirited but I can't stand Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron. They are everything that is wrong with the competition. Dangerfield entered the draft knowing he wasn't going to move in his first year. He walked out on his first club just as he was hitting his peak. Jeremy Cameron filled his pockets at GWS. Because he and a few others were pushing GWS for every dollar, they started losing players and he's no longer happy at a struggling side. It's clear that there are a few guys on massive unders at Geelong if he's getting 900k. It's a consistent theme at GWS. The young stars ask GWS to 'empty their pockets', they make their money, then all of a sudden, after they have set themselves up financially, it's about team success and culture. Never mind that they are mercenaries who created the culture at GWS.
Click to expand...
I actually think what you’re saying is fair enough but good luck getting the AFLPA to agree to that. However we are the only club to pay for two high profile free agent superstars by trading instead of overpaying them and we still won a flag. The oldest team ever on a field today suggests the rest of you should be following our model in forgetting about the draft and bringing in players based on need.

We’ve had two top 10 picks in 16 years - Selwood and Cockatoo and the latter is a talentless hack who couldn’t remain loyal after years of being on the injury list. I don’t rate anyone as a human being if they would turn on you for money. Especially the figures you’re talking about.
 
I don’t really care if it’s not my club where the premiership cup goes. Not sure why interstaters feel they need to speak for other interstate clubs though. Each club has its own set of reasons why they haven5 been more successful. That said the Eagles and lions have an excellent record and right up on the table on a pro rata. Basis for years in the competition.

Richmond western bulldogs and Melbourne all broke droughts recently extending back to the pre afl era.
Collingwood haven’t won for 12 years, and Geelong for 11 until yesterday.
Essendon north and Carlton are in 20+ year droughts and no closer to ending them.
StKildas drought is nearing 60 years.
That really only leaves hawthorn and they’ve been crap recently.
 
Elmer_Judd said:
Instead of Academies, I think Father/Son criteria for WAFL/SANFL players should be lowered to match the VFL games played criteria. That would be a significant difference for both WA and SA clubs I think..
Click to expand...
Don't see why WA and SA clubs should get the sons of players who never even played for their club though
 
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