Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Saucery]

maybe not sensationalise things by linking the tv rights deal

I didn't see that as sensationalising but a direct comparison of competence between the two issues.

Edit: Though on refection the complexities of the two are miles apart.

 

[Saucery]

I would expect nothing else but a leading question from Q/A with the response ready to go.

The report was completed a couple of weeks ago . They're trying to have an inquiry. How furiously does he want them to work ?

He's just another political tosser looking to score a few points from his rapturous crowd.

You don't sound very rapturous to me

 

[martinson]

I didn't see that as sensationalising but a direct comparison of competence between the two issues.

Where have the AFL been incompetent since they had the report ?

What else did you want them to do other than what they've tried to instigate ?

 

[Tom14]

I would expect nothing else but a leading question from Q/A with the response ready to go.

The report was completed a couple of weeks ago . They're trying to have an inquiry. How furiously does he want them to work ?

He's just another political tosser looking to score a few points from his rapturous crowd.

Putting aside the hawthorn review the treatment of Adam Goodes was 7 years ago, there have been multiple lawsuits against the AFL from former indigenous players, Heritier Lumimba and Joel Wilkinson still face derision even after being vindicated on key aspects of their claims (e.g. Gold Coast players wearing black face to a team event), we had the Collingwood Do Better report and indigenous players are still subject to horrific racism. Add in the crows camp too which took Eddie betts’ autobiography to be taken seriously.

Most of this has occurred on the AFL’s watch with either minimal attempt to stamp it out or active opposition. Gil has always been poor on this issue but gets the plaudits for the media rights deal etc. I’d be looking into the afl as a governance body on player safety grounds more broadly too (concussion, etc) as well.

 

[M Malice]

Most of this has occurred on the AFL’s watch with either minimal attempt to stamp it out or active opposition. Gil has always been poor on this issue but gets the plaudits for the media rights deal etc. I’d be looking into the afl as a governance body on player safety grounds more broadly too (concussion, etc) as well.

I can actually envision a day in the future (probably not while I still exist) where most physical contact sports are banned because of OH&S concerns eg. Boxing, MMA, AFL, Rugby League.

BTW I in no way agree with that ever happening, life is a risk and adults of sound mind and being fully informed of risks should be allowed to do just about anything.

 

[Saucery]

Where have the AFL been incompetent since they had the report ?

What else did you want them to do other than what they've tried to instigate ?

It's not about what they have done since but what they have failed to do in the past, at least that's what the quote seems to reference.

I didn't actually make the statement you know so why ask me?

I mearly commented that:

"Looks like the Feds are fed up with the autocracy called the AFL."

Not sure how you got here from that.

I was merely interpreting what was said, I wasn't advocating for it.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I can actually envision a day in the future (probably not while I still exist) where most physical contact sports are banned because of OH&S concerns eg. Boxing, MMA, AFL, Rugby League.

I've often thought this. In 100 (maybe 50) years Aussie rules, presuming it still exists, will be a non-contact sport.

 

[Saucery]

Could the Hawthorn review unleash a new reckoning in the AFL?

Any integrity unit investigation is expected to vindicate either the players or the former Hawks coach Alastair Clarkson and other club staff

www.theguardian.com

Didn't know that the couple involved in the abortion allegations had been together for 8 years prior and were to hold an engagement party only days after the player was allegedly removed from the home to live with an assistant coach (do we know who that was yet?).

Doesn't sound like a very unstable relationship to me.

 

[Saucery]

I've often thought this. In 100 (maybe 50) years Aussie rules, presuming it still exists, will be a non-contact sport.

No way!

Civilisations got about 25 years left, tops.

 

[Maboo]

I can actually envision a day in the future (probably not while I still exist) where most physical contact sports are banned because of OH&S concerns eg. Boxing, MMA, AFL, Rugby League.

BTW I in no way agree with that ever happening, life is a risk and adults of sound mind and being fully informed of risks should be allowed to do just about anything.

Yeah virtual football, I can’t wai.

 

[M Malice]

Yeah virtual football, I can’t wai.

I will miss the Singularity and humanity plugging into the Matrix..... Phew!

I am quite happy to avoid it and that my life will have been but a brief candle in the dark and then extinguished for eternity.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

I've often thought this. In 100 (maybe 50) years Aussie rules, presuming it still exists, will be a non-contact sport.

Not a chance- no one would watch. Maybe we should not have a police force, army troops, fire brigade, car racing, motorcycle racing, should stop catching planes, driving cars, walking down the street, jumping on trampolines, swimming at the beach because there are risks involved. If you not willing to cop head knocks- don’t play. Although the way the world is going you maybe right.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Not a chance- no one would watch. Maybe we should not have a police force, army troops, fire brigade, car racing, motorcycle racing, should stop catching planes, driving cars, walking down the street, jumping on trampolines, swimming at the beach because there are risks involved. If you not willing to cop head knocks- don’t play. Although the way the world is going you maybe right.

 

[lioninthesand]

I would be gobsmacked if Clarkson/Fagan or anyone from a footy club would flat out tell a player to abort a child, context is everything eg. was it in a range of options given to the player.


More Clarkson claims emerge as Hawks coach and his family dragged into saga

The Age alleges Clarkson engaged in “controlling behaviour” towards Mitchell – including on the eve of an interstate game telling the star mid to “hand in his mobile phone” – along with the rest of the players in the team, despite one of his daughters being frequently in hospital.

Journalist Caroline Wilson also alleges Clarkson “expressed surprise” when Mitchell announced he was having twin girls when son Smith was 11 months old and “wondered at the effect this might have upon his playing career”.

In Wilson’s article, it is alleged Clarkson “agreed” to treat Mitchell with “more respect” when the pair spoke at the season’s end, but again “questioned the wisdom of the timing” of his daughters’ birth.
__________________________________________________
Eerily similar to accusations in the Hawthorn report IMO. I would hazard a guess that if an investigation/inquiry was to be done into the treatment of all players(who could have anonymity) at footy clubs there would be similar stories. The Hawthorn one by design was only to investigate Indigenous treatment which is great, all clubs should do the same as a matter of course over the next period of time.

As I said in a previous post, cultural insensitivity on behalf of the accused not racism, Clarkson/Fagan were also let down by the HFC due to lack of training and awareness of Indigenous culture and issues and being expected to be "father figures" to these young players who generally would have been living away from family for the first time in their lives.

Yeah I’ve read that article. Reads like a more moderate version of whats been alleged.

On the one hand it might prove he did it to everyone, but by virtue, isn’t that then also suggesting he is likely to have actually done what they alleging?

I think it’s a silly focus by supporters of the accused, at this point, aren’t we not yet sure this behaviour even occurred?

The fact as implied, ‘it was happening to everyone’ isn’t going to save Fagans job.

 

[Saucery]

Yeah I’ve read that article. Reads like he like a more moderate version of whats been alleged.

On the one hand it might prove he did it to everyone, but by virtue, isn’t that then also suggesting he is likely to have actually done what they alleging?

I think it’s a silly focus by supporters of the accused, at this point, aren’t we not yet sure this behaviour even occurred?

The fact as implied, ‘it was happening to everyone’ isn’t going to save Fagans job.

Yes it kind of reminds me of the WADA investigation where they considered the evidence against Essendon not like 'links in a chain' as ASADA had done but 'strands in a cable'. A few missing ones doesn't imply guild can't be established. This is another one of those strands.

ASADA said ‘links in a chain’; WADA said ‘strands in a cable’: Which was right?

What does ASADA’s failed prosecution of the 34 Essendon Players and the famous Lindy Chamberlain case have in common? Both decisions apparently applied the principle that you need to prove each mat…

sociallitigator.com

 

[Viceregal]

I don't think anyone is saying that being an over-controlling micromanaging success obsessed arsehole is a good thing - they are just thinking that it is better than being a racist over-controlling micromanaging success obsessed arsehole...

One gets you counseling and a reprimand for not having a compassionate enough workspace (with an inherent awareness that compassion is not the main product of the organisation but competitive success is) ... the other gets you cancelled and treated as a leper and a pariah (which can be hard to take individually when you are proud of your rep, were fully supported organisationally in the process, and the same thing was being done by most other clubs that had any success at the time)

 

[corporal]

I know Matt Rendell was rubbed out for suggesting this a few years ago but are clubs going to look past young indigenous players who are going through troubles in fear of being wrapped up in litigation now? I'm a tigers supporter and have been proud of the ongoing effort the the club continues to put into Sydney Stack

44

Sydney Stack

Age

23

Ht

179cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.5

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.7

5star

M

4.1

4star

T

3.0

5star

MG

202.0

3star

D

9.8

2star

K

3.4

1star

HB

6.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.8

4star

MG

133.0

2star

D

16.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

9.0

5star

M

5.6

5star

T

3.0

5star

MG

227.4

4star

despite some ongoing struggles. Are young players with any issues simply going to be left behind now from a media risk management perspective? (Apologies for crashing your board just reading some different perspectives on the situation)

 

[martinson]

Fagan is one person who can say he has worked with indigenous people over many years.

Anyone else on this thread who can say the same let us know now so we know you're not just throwing your opinions out there.

 

[western royboy]

Fagan is one person who can say he has worked with indigenous people over many years.

Anyone else on this thread who can say the same let us know now so we know you're not just throwing your opinions out there.

I have cousins who are indigenous, I worked as a contractor for an Indigenous Business group for five years (working with Indigenous people to develop business proposals/ concepts for potential funding and then as an advisor post approval) , I work with an indigenous girl presently…how about you?

 

[martinson]

I have cousins who are indigenous, I worked as a contractor for an Indigenous Business group for five years, I work with an indigenous girl presently…how about you?

Yes. In my other life I've been involved with indigenous groups in the Douglas Council.

I'm surprised you'd think I was silly enough to ask the question knowing someone would be lying in wait.

 

[western royboy]

Yes. In my other life I've been involved with indigenous groups in the Douglas Council.

I'm surprised you'd think I was silly enough to ask the question knowing someone would be lying in wait.

No I didn’t think that at all, but full disclosure

 

[martinson]

I have cousins who are indigenous, I worked as a contractor for an Indigenous Business group for five years (working with Indigenous people to develop business proposals/ concepts for potential funding and then as an advisor post approval) , I work with an indigenous girl presently…how about you?

In fact my dad was one of the first people to take in an indigenous worker in the most working class area of Melbourne at the time. With repercussions.

The way they lived in the council housing they were apportioned amongst other social housing tainted my view for a long time.

Before I came to full understanding.

 

[Fitzroy bears]

Prime example of cohesive control, considered a form of abuse by most legal systems; if not directly a crime in itself.

This might open a can of worms, but when Leigh Matthews brought all the wives in and told them they couldn't have sex or had to abstain during certain times of the season so it didn't disrupt the season with player unavailability.

Wouldn't this be considered the same sort of "control" or "abuse" of human rights or civil liability?
Definitely not a workplace appropriate directive, wouldn't you say?
And if so, why aren't we talking or making something of this behaviour?


I don't see this current situation as a race issue.
A morality issue, most definitely and definitely a football governance issue and perhaps a civil rights issue.

This is only a race issue at this point in time because only first nations people have been reviewed and their stories told so far.

IF and I say if, once everyone on the playing list, coaching staff and football department have been interviewed and heard and IF they find that this treatment was in isolation of the first nations people on that list and club.....only then can this be deemed as a racial issue.

Truth be told it doesn't matter a toss what the colour of their skin is, if this sort of crap happened to any person regardless of race, creed, gender or standing and is proven, then the perpetrators should be stripped of there jobs and have a massive case to answer

 

[lioninthesand]

I don't think anyone is saying that being an over-controlling micromanaging success obsessed arsehole is a good thing - they are just thinking that it is better than being a racist over-controlling micromanaging success obsessed arsehole...

One gets you counseling and a reprimand for not having a compassionate enough workspace (with an inherent awareness that compassion is not the main product of the organisation but competitive success is) ... the other gets you cancelled and treated as a leper and a pariah (which can be hard to take individually when you are proud of your rep, were fully supported organisationally in the process, and the same thing was being done by most other clubs that had any success at the time)

I just don’t see it and a good defence. If the allegations are found to be true, the investigators are not going to justify the findings as ‘not bad or racist because similar (more moderate to this point) stuff also happened to other white players’.

The findings will be ‘there was a culture of bullying, intimidation and control over players within the footy department that was wide spread, the worst of which (if their accounts are true) was reserved for isolated indigenous players in their care’ - or something along those lines.

Still coaching career over for both men IMO.

 

[trikster]

Add another 6 months to any resolution now. I think this is going to be well and truly taken out of the AFL's hands