How the AFL lost the battle for Sydney

[juddy_Like]

Why is there such an obsession within the AFL to “win the battle” in places like Sydney and Gold Coast? Why? I simply don’t get it.
Who said it was a battle? What’s the end game long term - AFL to wipe out rugby league and make the NRL extinct? Why would AFL executives obsess over something as stupid as that?
Meanwhile the game of Aussie rules footy was neglected for a very long time by the VFL/AFL in traditional footy states and still is to a degree. All the primetime slots and marquee games are the preserve of the big vic clubs to a large degree. The final is played in Melbourne until 2057.
Tasmania has been treated like s**t by the AFL for decades to the point where the amount of high end talent produced there has dropped off significantly.
Tassie is actually a good example of an important point.
If the AFL finally sets up a new team there, I would be willing to bet that between now and 2040, Tasmania, with its tiny 250k population, will produce far more top 30 AFL draft picks between now and 2040 than the entirety of the western sydney suburbs with its 3 million plus population.
Doesn’t that just highlight how dumb the whole thing of pumping money into a black hole is?
The NRL looked after its base. Instead of pouring money into black holes in perth and Adelaide from its point of view, it went to regional strongholds like Townsville and Newcastle. Rewarding its loyal fans there and shoring up its base. The VFL did the opposite.

I don't think anyone here is saying its a battle, rather the opposite.

 

[sherb]

Could it be because the first game of Australian Rules Football in a crude form was played there of there abouts in 1858

The first first-class cricket match in Australia was played at what is now the NTCA ground in Launceston in February 1851.

Doesn't make that ground the "spiritual home" of cricket in Australia.

 

[Dockeroo]

And a GF featuring the Tassie team will get how many viewers?

Not saying your point is wrong, just that there are a number of metrics to measure this by.

Why is the amount of viewers a prospective GF involving a Tasmanian team relevant to anything?
Who cares.
It’s an equalised comp (supposedly). It’s not like the same teams are in the GF every single year. If a Tassie team makes it there good on them.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why is the amount of viewers a prospective GF involving a Tasmanian team relevant to anything?
Who cares.
It’s an equalised comp (supposedly). It’s not like the same teams are in the GF every single year. If a Tassie team makes it there good on them.

Um, I kinda think TV ratings are pretty important to the AFL's business model, given how much of their revenue comes from their broadcast deal.

 

[sherb]

Why is there such an obsession within the AFL to “win the battle” in places like Sydney and Gold Coast? Why? I simply don’t get it.
Who said it was a battle? What’s the end game long term - AFL to wipe out rugby league and make the NRL extinct? Why would AFL executives obsess over something as stupid as that?
Meanwhile the game of Aussie rules footy was neglected for a very long time by the VFL/AFL in traditional footy states and still is to a degree. All the primetime slots and marquee games are the preserve of the big vic clubs to a large degree. The final is played in Melbourne until 2057.
Tasmania has been treated like s**t by the AFL for decades to the point where the amount of high end talent produced there has dropped off significantly.
Tassie is actually a good example of an important point.
If the AFL finally sets up a new team there, I would be willing to bet that between now and 2040, Tasmania, with its tiny 250k population, will produce far more top 30 AFL draft picks between now and 2040 than the entirety of the western sydney suburbs with its 3 million plus population.
Doesn’t that just highlight how dumb the whole thing of pumping money into a black hole is?
The NRL looked after its base. Instead of pouring money into black holes in perth and Adelaide from its point of view, it went to regional strongholds like Townsville and Newcastle. Rewarding its loyal fans there and shoring up its base. The VFL did the opposite.

Tassie has a 250k population?

That will be news to the 500,000+ people who live there.

 

[Dockeroo]

Um, I kinda think TV ratings are pretty important to the AFL's business model, given how much of their revenue comes from their broadcast deal.

So what you are saying is the AFL should structure and set up the competition in a way that favours teams that are more likely to get a greater TV audience for the GF?
What a load of crap

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

So what you are saying is the AFL should structure and set up the competition in a way that favours teams that are more likely to get a greater TV audience for the GF?
What a load of crap

Wow someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

I think you need to decide what exactly is the point you’re making.

You seem to have this belief that the AFL’s mission should be to nurture grass roots footy in traditional footy states. You don’t seem to think the AFL, a multi billion dollar organisation that just signed the biggest Aust sports broadcasting deal yet, would care about viewing figures.

You seem to think trying to win hundreds of thousands of fans in two states that, combined, represent fully half of Australia’s entire population, is less important than getting good draft picks flowing out of Tassie.

 

[Dockeroo]

Wow someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning.

I think you need to decide what exactly is the point you’re making.

You seem to have this belief that the AFL’s mission should be to nurture grass roots footy in traditional footy states. You don’t seem to think the AFL, a multi billion dollar organisation that just signed the biggest Aust sports broadcasting deal yet, would care about viewing figures.

You seem to think trying to win hundreds of thousands of fans in two states that, combined, represent fully half of Australia’s entire population, is less important than getting good draft picks flowing out of Tassie.

If what you say is true, why aren’t the NRL down here in Melbourne and in Adelaide and Perth setting up 2 or 3 new franchises to capitalise on a growing market place and population with 8 or 9 million people?
What’s different about them compared to the AFL? Two very comparable sporting bodies in Australia, but very different attitudes to where they want to focus future investment.

What’s wrong with consolidating the game in states in Australia where there is a genuine passion for the sport? Instead of pumping money into the likes of Gold Coast which in reality, won’t give a return for 40 years, indeed I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a franchise that relies on AFL $$ to remain viable for ever. Likewise GWS.
What a waste of money.

The game in TAS has been sacrificed at the altar of “growth” in gold coast and western Sydney over the last 2 decades.
It has cost hundreds of millions of $$ with nothing meaningful to show for it in return.
There is more passion and interest in Australian roles football in Ireland than theirs is in western sydney.

 

[juddy_Like]

If what you say is true, why aren’t the NRL down here in Melbourne and in Adelaide and Perth setting up 2 or 3 new franchises to capitalise on a growing market place and population with 8 or 9 million people?
What’s different about them compared to the AFL? Two very comparable sporting bodies in Australia, but very different attitudes to where they want to focus future investment.

What’s wrong with consolidating the game in states in Australia where there is a genuine passion for the sport? Instead of pumping money into the likes of Gold Coast which in reality, won’t give a return for 40 years, indeed I wouldn’t be surprised if it is a franchise that relies on AFL $$ to remain viable for ever. Likewise GWS.
What a waste of money.

The game in TAS has been sacrificed at the altar of “growth” in gold coast and western Sydney over the last 2 decades.
It has cost hundreds of millions of $$ with nothing meaningful to show for it in return.
There is more passion and interest in Australian roles football in Ireland than theirs is in western sydney.

I still don't understand what point you are making?
Are you saying the NRL are doing just as good if not better job at growing the game as the AFL are?
Are you saying trying to grow the game in new areas is a bad thing?
Are you saying the whole Sydney and Brisbane expansion is a complete waste of time and blight on the game since it takes about 40 years sustain a return?
Are you saying the Melbourne Storm don't exist?

 

[AndyD]

I would hate to think of the crowds if you expect everyone to pay full price.

As I mentioned before, a lot of us are neutrals who live no-where near Olympic Park but still go as
a. its a relatively cheap game / day at the footy
b. giants stadium is actually a brilliant venue for footy
c. Giants before the last couple of years were enjoyable to watch
d. they were actually playing our team that week.

Again, if I had to pay full quack, the alternate option is to watch it at home or at the pub next door and that's a hell of a lot easier when you have no skin in the game.

I think the phrase “a lot of us” is doing a bit of heavy lifting in that sentence looking at the crowds at some games this year. But setting that aside you basically prove my point, because for all the factors you listed, none would seem to matter enough if the price for a ticket was $30-50 instead of $15. The message that a price sends to a potential consumer is also pretty important in how they view that product. You tell people it’s cheap/not worth that much, they will think it’s cheap/not worth that much


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[AndyD]

AFL in Sydney will never get anywhere near what it is in Melbourne, just like RL won’t in Melbourne, Swans are going ok though, GWS are generations away from breaking even.

Define “ok” though? 71k people in Sydney watched Buddy Franklin kick 1,000 goals this year. The following week on a Thursday night (which is a better night for TV than Friday), a paltry 39k watched Sydney play the Bulldogs. After all the hype and attention that Sydney received after the 1,000 goal, they lost just under 1/2 of an already small audience the following week. If these are the results after 30 years of constant investment, I am unsure why anybody would expect anything better over the next 30 years

Friday 25 March 2022 | TV Tonight

1 SEVEN NEWS 793,000 2 SEVEN NEWS AT 6.30 769,000 3 NINE NEWS 749,000 4 NINE NEWS 6:30 692,000 5 SEVEN'S AFL: FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL 633,000

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Thursday 31 March 2022 | TV Tonight

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[Ginnieboy]

Define “ok” though? 71k people in Sydney watched Buddy Franklin kick 1,000 goals this year. The following week on a Thursday night (which is a better night for TV than Friday), a paltry 39k watched Sydney play the Bulldogs. After all the hype and attention that Sydney received after the 1,000 goal, they lost just under 1/2 of an already small audience the following week. If these are the results after 30 years of constant investment, I am unsure why anybody would expect anything better over the next 30 years

Friday 25 March 2022 | TV Tonight

1 SEVEN NEWS 793,000 2 SEVEN NEWS AT 6.30 769,000 3 NINE NEWS 749,000 4 NINE NEWS 6:30 692,000 5 SEVEN'S AFL: FRIDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL 633,000

tvtonight.com.au

Thursday 31 March 2022 | TV Tonight

1 SEVEN NEWS 878,000 2 SEVEN NEWS AT 6.30 860,000 3 NINE NEWS 838,000 4 NINE NEWS 6:30 800,000 5 ABC NEWS 628,000

tvtonight.com.au

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I didn’t say they’d bent it over, also ratings aren’t all that matters long term, player numbers is the most relevant thing IMO, AFL are gaining more and more NSW players every year, NRL (iirc) has one Victorian player and I don’t think he plays first grade.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Would be one of the worst ideas possible, because all you’re training those kids is that you shouldn’t have to pay to attend a game. Partnering with junior clubs to provide exclusive areas/benefits to junior members that play with those clubs would be a worthy idea, but discounting in the way suggested isn’t. A one off/infrequent freebie can be fine, but sustained free tickets is death for any promotional event which will hope to make money on future ticket sales, because you’re just training that market to hold out for free tickets. The price barrier for entry for people to want to sample the product in those markets is low enough, without further warping the psychology of any potential ticket buyer.


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While I agree in general to limit freebies, I think it's fine for juniors.

Anybody under 15 getting a free ticket will still have to go with their parents, who will have to buy their own tickets, as well as food and drink. It's just making a day at the footy more attainable for the budget. Potentially even creating more ticket sales than would've otherwise happened.

Tbh, I think u15s should be free all the time (with an accompanying adult). It makes no difference to the kids whether it's free or dad pays for it, and helps build an attendance culture before they start having their own disposable income.

 

[Nice Swan Brother]

The Swans are taking more union fans than league fans. GWS aren't, given not many people in the west give a toss about union.

 

[Ricketz]

I didn't feel clever to be honest.

And sunk cost is sunk cost.

It becomes a concord when u continue to throw money at it 20 years later.

I'm still advocating for the 2 teams.

Just saying a Sydney team and Canberra/ACT team.

No reason swans cant do community work and kids clinics etc in western sydney.

I'm not suggesting totally abandoning WS. Just being more efficient with resources.

Also keep in mind Canberra has had decent population growth this last decade.

ACT population now 467,000.
Similarity to Tassie.

Sandgropers don't know that Canberra is an AFL stronghold. They have only heard on the warhless about Canberra Raiders, and ACT Brumbies, both of which don't get as many fans to games as even the Gunghalin Jets, let alone Belco, Ainslie or Queanbeyan.

 

[master bate]

I’d say on any critical analysis, the V/AFL’s two expansion attempts to Sydney certainly couldn’t be considered a success. This was the Swans 40th year in the market, and since at least 1993/4 the AFL have been committed to Sydney’s success in that market. In a season in which they made a grand final, the average TV rating for the Swans in Sydney was 51k. Is it gonna take another 40 years before they can top (or even get close to) the 80-100k that WCE/Freo/Port/Crows get in significantly smaller overall markets?

The TV numbers in both QLD and NSW also show the lie that the addition of the two new teams was required in the locations chosen, because it’s hard to believe 7/Fox are forking out all that money for the next 7 years for 25k per game in NSW/QLD, especially when their is no guarantee 7 would be able to reap the fruits of any increase in viewership in 20/30 years times. Their value to the TV deal was simply allowing the AFL to sell 9 games per week at $x instead of 8.

It is hard not to assume the V/AFL would’ve done around the same, or at least not significantly worse TV numbers (at a much smaller cost), had they gone with 11 neutral site games per year at the SCG instead of shifting a team permanently into a market that was not ready for it. Such an approach would’ve likely laid a much stronger foundation for support of a club in that market compared to what happened.


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The Giants and Suns aren't really about the channel 7 tv numbers. They're often on digital channels that don't get any casual viewers. Those teams are about keeping the foxtel/kayo customers in NSW/QLD. Even if the games don't do big numbers they are still a strong selling point for fox.

 

[juddy_Like]

I think the phrase “a lot of us” is doing a bit of heavy lifting in that sentence looking at the crowds at some games this year. But setting that aside you basically prove my point, because for all the factors you listed, none would seem to matter enough if the price for a ticket was $30-50 instead of $15. The message that a price sends to a potential consumer is also pretty important in how they view that product. You tell people it’s cheap/not worth that much, they will think it’s cheap/not worth that much


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Although I do agree with what you’re saying but a 10 year old kid isn’t going to know if dad got tickets for free from work or if he paid full price. He’s just excited to go to something with his dad and the hope with time, footy is part of his life as he grows up.

With the giants, I look at it more like a new gym that opens up. Well from my experience anyways.
You don’t pay full price because you don’t know if it’s good or not. The gym just wants to get a database of clientele to start so they offer introductory rates to get people on board to try.

 

[master bate]

It's just the way things are up here. People just aren't that passionate about sport, so coming back to your point it's not a matter exposure IMO, it really is all about the culture of the place, particularly in the east. I wouldn't say it's frowned upon to be a sporting nuff, but it's certainly not as widely accepted as it would be in Victoria or SA IMO.

The best way I could describe it is if you've seen a Sydneysider asked about the lack of attendance at NRL games, the most common response is "Oh we've got better things to do up here" or something along those lines. That's Sydney's North Shore/Eastern Suburbs sporting culture in a nutshell for you.

I think a lot of those people actually really like sport. They just see their sporting interests as broad rather than deep and they prefer events more than weekly attendance. There's actually a whole lot more people in Melbourne like that, the difference is they buy memberships out of habit/duty/hope and talking about the footy is more ingrained in Melbourne society.

If the Swans have 20k rusted on home supporters and get 15k variable attendances then does it really matter?

GWS would die for a mix of the rusted on Swans fans and causal fans. And that might be the best way to grow GWS too. Whilst they have to keep an eye on what's traditionally been Western Sydney they should be be snagging families in Inner West Sydney. Win enough of those hearts and miinds and the next generation wiill follow on.

 

[MVille Swan]

I think a lot of Australian Rules followers from the southern states discount the fact that rugby league is
actually a pretty good game both live and on the TV. Most of my long time Swans supporting family and friends
also follow league to an extent. League is very hard to avoid in Sydney. It gets way more coverage in the
media in Sydney than AR does. AR is seen as a "Melbourne game" by a fair few Sydney people I think, or
they don't think about it at all.
But really there is no "battle for Sydney" as such. That's just a phrase dreamed up by unimaginative
"journalists".

 

[Angus Young]

I think a lot of Australian Rules followers from the southern states discount the fact that rugby league is
actually a pretty good game both live and on the TV.

RL is way better on TV than live, in my opinion.

 

[kranky al]

RL is way better on TV than live, in my opinion.

Yeah I’ve gone and watched canberra when I lived there and it’s just easier on the eyes to watch it on telly.

Afl you get a better overview and idea of the tactics at the game.

Also at afl you get big stadiums full of supporters going nuts which also enhances the spectacle.

 

[The Educator]

Shocking proof the Swans and GWS have failed to attract fans.

AFL loses the battle for Sydney: Swans and GWS fail to attract fans

Hundreds of millions of dollars in AFL cash has not been enough to win the battle of Sydney against the NRL. New figures have shown the Swans and GWS are AFL liabilities and fans are tuning out

www.dailymail.co.uk

Christ that article is moronic.

The 2019 and 2022 grand finals were by far the most one sided grand finals over the last 15 years. It just happened that it was the two Sydney clubs on the end of beltings.

 

[Colonial]

Christ that article is moronic.

The 2019 and 2022 grand finals were by far the most one sided grand finals over the last 15 years. It just happened that it was the two Sydney clubs on the end of beltings.

Shhh facts don’t matter only the VFL fishbowl

 

[76woodenspooners]

Shhh facts don’t matter only the VFL fishbowl

More NRL fishbowl than VFL fishbowl.

 

[The Educator]

More NRL fishbowl than VFL fishbowl.

They are literally as myopic as fish as well. I know the Panthers are hegemonic at the moment but it is pretty absurd to claim victory because two Western Sydney teams happened to be playing in the Grand Final that day.

The people genuinely in the "VFL fishbowl" are the ones who would rather the Giants and Suns didn't exist at all. The success or otherwise of the two recent expansion clubs won't be definitive until 2050.