List Mgmt. 2022 Trade Thread - Part III

[MordySaint]

You build premiership teams around young developing talent. Players like Hill, Ryder etc are the type of players you bring in to an already strong team to giver an added edge. Our list has been built backwards, as has been said.

I think more than our team has been built backwards, it seems as though the whole football department tries to do everything the other way around to create an edge. I can give you so many examples like team meeting timings before games, meditation before every quarter on game day, inexperienced people appointed in experienced roles etc etc

Happy that Walsh is in to tell our administrators to do everything the tried and trusted way, not try to re-invent the wheel in every part of the football department.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[bergholt]

I think what Gags was saying was we didn't think it was the right time to chase guys that cost lots of picks. I probably agree with him.

As for picking up depth like Weidemann it would have helped but it's not the end of the world.

We need to get more out of the list we have. We also need to draft well, we have a pretty good hand this year and next.

Here's hoping.

I think the main bit where I disagree with the strategy is I would have worked harder to get Hill out. If we'd paid his salary could we have found a pick around 20-30? I would have done that in a heartbeat, would have given us clearly the fourth strongest draft hand this year which feels like an important thing at this stage in the list. Still the sixth strongest hand with 3 picks inside 32, not bad, but one more would have really bolstered that.

Then again maybe they tried and none of the contending clubs wanted him. Probably understandable.

 

[gringo2011]

Our strategy this trade period was the right one. We’re keeping our picks and hopefully we’ll select good players with them. Missed out on De Goey but at least we tried.

It’s not as fun but I’d much rather do what we just did than be the trade period winners like we were in 2019. I wasn’t thrilled with any of the blokes we brought in then and I’m not convinced it was the great result we all think it is.

The draft is key and we just need to repeat what we did last year. Much tougher without the academy players that’ll fall in our lap but Mackenzie would be a good start.

Yep, we have one of the smallest pools of under 23 talent in the league and really need to add to it with top end players from the first and second round. Selling HC for a chance at more was dumb because he's not far off that himself. Really lucky that it fell over.

I'm not sold on draft as our only option but we want to not over pay or lose that first round pick under any circumstances (except a once in a lifetime deal).

If we wait for the draft lead recovery it will be a slow rebuild but we need youth players mostly and guys that fit needs not just names for the sake of looking active.

It looks like the landscape has changed this trade period wth heaps of better players on the market and at a much lower rate than in past season. Clubs seem to have become a lot less married to holding on to players unless they get top dollar. We really need to work on trades a year out because we missed a lot of deals this year because we were all in on one player.

 

[PJays]

There are currently 14 of our ‘best 22’ who will be over 26 next year.

That suggests to me we absolutely should be in our window.

Spot on. We have a mature list.

We need to be planning for 2024-2025 and onwards when King starts to really peak.

I would've liked us to move up the draft board this year with another top 10 pick, or even another top 20. But realistically it's difficult doing those trades without offering something significant.

The damage was done years ago.

The Hill trade was catastrophic in the context of long term list management- we took on an older guy and massively overpaid him, and traded out a younger player and a pick 10.

And consider our top 10/15 picks from 2013-2018 ish. Max King (pick 4) is the only star we unearthed. Gresham (pick 18) still has lots of potential but unfortunately has been hurt by injuries. Compare us to other clubs like Melbourne, Dogs and Carlton and their ratio of getting stars from their picks. St Kilda had drafted 135 consecutive players without an All Australian appearance until Sinclair made it this year.

Whether the problem was talent selection or coaching or a mix, I'm not sure.

The flip side is this- every club is only two drafts from turning things around. Two good drafts can net you 4-6 good players and change the trajectory of the future in a massive way.

St Kilda seems to have had a good draft in 2021. Let's hope for likewise in a few weeks.

 

[bird_man]

Exactly what we did in 2012-14

We just ****ed our draft selections

 

[Mowman]

You are so inconsistent, that Geelong game was a 10 minute patch even. Freo, Geelong we’re great wins. Richmond were a worse side than us. The Dockers and Tigers were both missing players as well. Most of the first half sides were easier sides. The harder part of the draft was in the second half. I still don’t think we played many games where we were a much better side. The second half of the year we were a bottom 3 side. It wasn’t even close to good but doesn’t mean the first half was great. As said before if King and Snags convert over league average we win. Otherwise we lose.

It was Leathlean on SEN that said our 1st half of the year that the games we won, we won on burst of a quarter or two of good footy not on 4 quarter performance where we controlled the game like top 4 sides

 

[gringo2011]

We still need can't afford a full rebuild. We are going to have to try to be really active in quality trades and get someone in who can spot top talent in the draft. Starting again isn't really an option unless we want to make Tassie's build quicker by moving there.

 

[bird_man]

Looking at what we offered to get pick 3 I wouldn't at all be surprised to see us make a big play for pick 4

It will likely cost us this year and next years first (with 22 coming to us as well) but I just get the feeling the club is desperate to get a high end pick in.

The probability of Clark and NWM leaving next year won't leave us short on draft picks if they do leave, although not sure either will get us a first

 

[bergholt]

What does our limit demographic look like with the the outs + Cordy & 4 x 18 year olds in?

150+ games: 2 players - Hill, Ross

- Obviously not much here.

80+ games: 15 players - Membrey, Billings, Sinclair, Steele, Crouch, Webster, Jones, Cordy, Gresham, Butler, Howard, Wood, Marshall, Wilkie, Higgins

- Pretty solid core tbh, if they all play at their best we'll be competitive with most sides.

20+ games: 9 players - Battle, McKenzie, Clark, King, Campbell, Paton, Coffield, Lienert, Byrnes

- These are the ones the serious improvement comes from. Quite possibly 2-3 of these could take another big step up next year, that would make us a much better side.

1+ games: 8 players - Windhager, Wanganeen-Milera, Highmore, Bytel, Sharman, Connolly, Owens, Hayes

- A small amount of promising talent here, not really enough though.

0 games: 8 players - Allison, Heath, Adams, Peris, drafted 18 year old, drafted 18 year old, drafted 18 year old, drafted 18 year old

- And just crossing our fingers down here.


I don't think it looks terrible, just needs a lot to go right with the less experienced guys for it to turn into a really good list.

 

[Mowman]

So basically what a few of us have been saying that we got the list build all wrong
Who has been in charge of that the last 3 years? Move them on

 

[Sainter1873]

Exactly what we did in 2012-14

We just cactus our draft selections

I was thinking yesterday that it reminded me a bit of 2013-2014. We’re a lot more competitive now than we were back then but we had the same approach of draft for a few years then go after trade targets and free agents. Difference now is we nailed the 2021 draft. Just need to do it again.

 

[gringo2011]

I think the main bit where I disagree with the strategy is I would have worked harder to get Hill out. If we'd paid his salary could we have found a pick around 20-30? I would have done that in a heartbeat, would have given us clearly the fourth strongest draft hand this year which feels like an important thing at this stage in the list. Still the sixth strongest hand with 3 picks inside 32, not bad, but one more would have really bolstered that.

Then again maybe they tried and none of the contending clubs wanted him. Probably understandable.

Really unfortunate that Clarkson hit before the draft for both North and us. In that situation JHF is still there they have their picks and are trusting everything he does to their list. We could have probably gone in and asked for overs while they were in a positivity spike and walked away with Clark and Hill gone for great picks. Topped up at the draft and done an on the fly mini rebuild.

I think Clark is too good to lose but there is still a risk that we've burnt the relationship and it's just killing a year to end up with less for him.

 

[Saintbloke]

Spot on. We have a mature list.

We need to be planning for 2024-2025 and onwards when King starts to really peak.

I would've liked us to move up the draft board this year with another top 10 pick, or even another top 20. But realistically it's difficult doing those trades without offering something significant.

The damage was done years ago.

The Hill trade was catastrophic in the context of long term list management- we took on an older guy and massively overpaid him, and traded out a younger player and a pick 10.

And consider our top 10/15 picks from 2013-2018 ish. Max King (pick 4) is the only star we unearthed. Gresham (pick 18) still has lots of potential but unfortunately has been hurt by injuries. Compare us to other clubs like Melbourne, Dogs and Carlton and their ratio of getting stars from their picks. St Kilda had drafted 135 consecutive players without an All Australian appearance until Sinclair made it this year.

Whether the problem was talent selection or coaching or a mix, I'm not sure.

The flip side is this- every club is only two drafts from turning things around. Two good drafts can net you 4-6 good players and change the trajectory of the future in a massive way.

St Kilda seems to have had a good draft in 2021. Let's hope for likewise in a few weeks.

Well said

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think more than our team has been built backwards, it seems as though the whole football department tries to do everything the other way around to create an edge. I can give you so many examples like team meeting timings before games, meditation before every quarter on game day, inexperienced people appointed in experienced roles etc etc

Happy that Walsh is in to tell our administrators to do everything the tried and trusted way, not try to re-invent the wheel in every part of the football department.

The trouble is they never verified their choices.

OK, we drafted a tall forward and a defender, now lets build the midfield.
In reality there are all sorts of things that go wrong with draft picks that stop them becoming the player you need.

You need to double up, or triple up. If you need a midfielder you don't draft a midfielder. You draft 3.
If you need a tall defender you have more than one developing.
On the off chance ( washing out is more likely than overachieving ) you end up with two many of a type, you get to do something in trade week.

 

[phantom13]

Really unfortunate that Clarkson hit before the draft for both North and us. In that situation JHF is still there they have their picks and are trusting everything he does to their list. We could have probably gone in and asked for overs while they were in a positivity spike and walked away with Clark and Hill gone for great picks. Topped up at the draft and done an on the fly mini rebuild.

I think Clark is too good to lose but there is still a risk that we've burnt the relationship and it's just killing a year to end up with less for him.

If we got 3 for Clark and 23 (or whatever our second is) you do that in a heartbeat if Clark wants out.

Anything more (9 and or next years first) and I’m happy to back the club in to get him right and happy and hopefully extend next year.

North went full Dodoro and I’m very very pleased we didn’t back down.

9 and Clark would have annoyed me. 9, Clark and next years first I would have just about microwaved my membership.

 

[MordySaint]

Better late than never... but its really a complete lack of looking at history to discover what actually works.

47 premiership players recruited from other sides to install their premiership culture into ours. I more see it as 47 premiership players who have already achieved success coming to us for their final pay-cheques and superannuation boost.

 

[gringo2011]

Looking at what we offered to get pick 3 I wouldn't at all be surprised to see us make a big play for pick 4

It will likely cost us this year and next years first (with 22 coming to us as well) but I just get the feeling the club is desperate to get a high end pick in.

The probability of Clark and NWM leaving next year won't leave us short on draft picks if they do leave, although not sure either will get us a first

I hope not. I reckon we are a very good chance to have pick 4 next year if a few things go wrong. Even if we get everything go right I reckon we would scrap into the 8. Plenty look like they have improved around us. Port, Essendon, Adelaide, GC, Carlton etc all probably step up. Hawks, North, WCE, GWS all look bottom 4 at this stage. We sit above them but if one gets a good run and we stumble it could get ugly.

Even if we say pick 5 next year that's a good pick in an excellent draft. Outside Ashcroft, Cadman, Sheezel, Wardlaw and Tsatas there isn't a lot of difference between the next lot from about 6 to 20. I probably wouldn't want to jump up to 4 to get the scraps of the cream. I think we could potentially get just as good at 10.

 

[bird_man]

I hope not. I reckon we are a very good chance to have pick 4 next year if a few things go wrong. Even if we get everything go right I reckon we would scrap into the 8. Plenty look like they have improved around us. Port, Essendon, Adelaide, GC, Carlton etc all probably step up. Hawks, North, WCE, GWS all look bottom 4 at this stage. We sit above them but if one gets a good run and we stumble it could get ugly.

Even if we say pick 5 next year that's a good pick in an excellent draft. Outside Ashcroft, Cadman, Sheezel, Wardlaw and Tsatas there isn't a lot of difference between the next lot from about 6 to 20. I probably wouldn't want to jump up to 4 to get the scraps of the cream. I think we could potentially get just as good at 10.

Yeah I'd prefer to just keep 9 and next years first but I just get the feeling we really want to get higher up

Pick 4 would get you one of those players you names though

1. Ashcroft
2. Cadman
3. Wardlow
4. Sheezel
5. Tsatas

Prefer to take Phillipou at 10 and keep next years though

 

[Mowman]

I hope not. I reckon we are a very good chance to have pick 4 next year if a few things go wrong. Even if we get everything go right I reckon we would scrap into the 8. Plenty look like they have improved around us. Port, Essendon, Adelaide, GC, Carlton etc all probably step up. Hawks, North, WCE, GWS all look bottom 4 at this stage. We sit above them but if one gets a good run and we stumble it could get ugly.

Even if we say pick 5 next year that's a good pick in an excellent draft. Outside Ashcroft, Cadman, Sheezel, Wardlaw and Tsatas there isn't a lot of difference between the next lot from about 6 to 20. I probably wouldn't want to jump up to 4 to get the scraps of the cream. I think we could potentially get just as good at 10.

Hope we don’t trade out next years 1st as I think we will have a pick anywhere from 5 to 10

 

[Saint Shags]

Was about to post exactly that, hopeful but not confident.

FN Geelong will probably snag him with their abundant salary cap and multiple picks.....yep jealous.

Cats will go Clark.
Hawthorn will be the one to take McKenzie. If he gets past the Hawks we'll have him.

 

[BrutThough]

Clark Coffield King Marshall Windhager Owens NWM Higgins Battle Paton

Hope for 1/2 kids we draft to break through.

Then get full seasons out of Billings/Steele/Gresh/Howard and apparently the bloke they have really missed Dmac.

That’s where they are expecting the lift to come from. Maybe add another 1/2 names.

But ultimately they have been told to lift all facets of their individual developments/training/performances.

From what I’ve heard aswell. Walsh takes absolutely no s**t.

He sets the bar. You meet it.

So I’m actually really excited about that appointment, more than I am anything else.

I'd add Jones another who could have a big impact from if we can keep him fit. Adds that speed and frenetic energy a lack at times. He just never got going consistently after his time away in the preseason. But if he can be in a better place next year, at worst he adds some needed midfield depth and at best, he is a point of difference in the midfield.

 

[crasha301]

Better late than never... but its really a complete lack of looking at history to discover what actually works.

47 premiership players recruited from other sides to install their premiership culture into ours. I more see it as 47 premiership players who have already achieved success coming to us for their final pay-cheques and superannuation boost.

I've also made that argument, if you've already won multiple premierships are you still as hungry to win another as you were with your first?


On CPH2145 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sauce_head]

We've bottomed out for over 50 years, time for a new strategy some time in the future.

1997 to 2011 says “hi”.

 

[bird_man]

Cats will go Clark.
Hawthorn will be the one to take McKenzie. If he gets past the Hawks we'll have him.

Hawks may well take Clark before Geelong