First club to 17 premierships?

[Fadge]

Yeah dunno if it’s been matched. For sure the most talented list in the history of the game imo better than the lions. But unfortunately that’s not enough praise for the people on here. I just think the systems today outweigh that, not allowed to have that opinion I guess without getting mauled, pretty sick.

I don't recall anyone on this forum disagreeing with this logic.

If you took Richmond 2020 back to 2007 in a time machine to play the Geelong time of that time, yes the superior gameplan, fitness, etc. would see Richmond 2020 as the superior side.

As another poster said, the Carlton 2022 side would also have the Geelong 2007 team covered.

But you are unwilling or unable to compare the respective teams relative to their opposition at the time, in consideration of the level of professionalism, etc. at the time. That is the problem.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Nup, it means no dynasty team was that bad. One of the biggest chokes in all of sport tbh being that good in H&A and still losing, no wonder you have to comfort yourself with that superteam crap short man syndrome at its finest. Shouldn’t even be considered a dynasty imo. Every other one could do it. It’s a requirement. Now goodbye and cope.


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Dude....you're the one who's been rambling on the internet like a mad man for the last 7 months. You've become famous on this site for all the wrong reasons and you've only been here since March. That's got to be a record time.

So the question must be raised......who's the one coping? I sense a greater issue is at play here rather than just football.

It's remarkable really...everyone here seems to be able to see the irony....except you.

 

[PhatBoy]

For every post he writes there’s about 5 people quoting him and half of the time insulting him. Imagine if it was some depressed dude and you blokes set them off over the edge.

Hit the ignore button ffs

If he actually stuck to ‘ok let me ask you your thoughts on this’ and could cop the answer it wouldn’t be so abrasive.

Unfortunately he asks a question like
‘Do you think St Kilda 09-10 are better than Richmond 17-20’ and he can’t accept what I think is a pretty simple answer: I believe that though obviously they didn’t win anything and they don’t match the ‘greatness’ that comes with winning titles, I believe that on a level playing field they would probably square 10 matches with that Richmond side and I believe they would do likewise with the current Geelong side.

So rather than saying ‘ok I don’t agree and here’s an analytical reason why’ it just degenerates instantly into
‘You don’t believe that you’re just saying it to make Geelong 07-11 sound good.’

Naturally as the winningest 5 season team in history, along with 3 flags to solidify their quality, I don’t need to make that Geelong side sound good. They’re irrelevant. The point was simply that the Saints side of that era were an incredibly good side and if you remove the Max Rooke junk time list siren goal in 2009, they were 6 points off being a dual premiership side.

 

[PhatBoy]

Cheers but I’m all g. They aren’t important people in my life.

Yeah dunno if it’s been matched. For sure the most talented list in the history of the game imo better than the lions. But unfortunately that’s not enough praise for the people on here. I just think the systems today outweigh that, not allowed to have that opinion I guess without getting mauled, pretty sick.


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No one is seeking praise.

 

[Falcon3518]

I don't recall anyone on this forum disagreeing with this logic.

If you took Richmond 2020 back to 2007 in a time machine to play the Geelong time of that time, yes the superior gameplan, fitness, etc. would see Richmond 2020 as the superior side.

As another poster said, the Carlton 2022 side would also have the Geelong 2007 team covered.

But you are unwilling or unable to compare the respective teams relative to their opposition at the time, in consideration of the level of professionalism, etc. at the time. That is the problem.

Thank you finally that’s what I have been saying all along!!! PB is the complete opposite. I agree cats have had the hardest opposition. I just think all dynasty teams would’ve beaten each others opponents. Is that not reasonable?


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[Fadge]

Thank you finally that’s what I have been saying all along!!! PB is the complete opposite. I agree cats have had the hardest opposition. I just think all dynasty teams would’ve beaten each others opponents. Is that not reasonable?

You still don't get it, do you?

PB is not the complete opposite - we both understand the game well enough to know how much it evolves decade on decade, but we are both astute enough (not that you need to have too much in the way of rational thinking to do so) to be able to compare the relative strength of different teams from different eras to conclude, for example, that St. Kilda 2009/10 were a superior team to Richmond 2017 to 2020.

 

[Arr0w]

If he actually stuck to ‘ok let me ask you your thoughts on this’ and could cop the answer it wouldn’t be so abrasive.

Unfortunately he asks a question like
‘Do you think St Kilda 09-10 are better than Richmond 17-20’ and he can’t accept what I think is a pretty simple answer: I believe that though obviously they didn’t win anything and they don’t match the ‘greatness’ that comes with winning titles, I believe that on a level playing field they would probably square 10 matches with that Richmond side and I believe they would do likewise with the current Geelong side.

So rather than saying ‘ok I don’t agree and here’s an analytical reason why’ it just degenerates instantly into
‘You don’t believe that you’re just saying it to make Geelong 07-11 sound good.’

Naturally as the winningest 5 season team in history, along with 3 flags to solidify their quality, I don’t need to make that Geelong side sound good. They’re irrelevant. The point was simply that the Saints side of that era were an incredibly good side and if you remove the Max Rooke junk time list siren goal in 2009, they were 6 points off being a dual premiership side.

Whether you or anyone else thinks the Saints of that era would or wouldn't have beaten the Tigers through 17,19, 20, matters little, as it's all conjecture

The same way, it would be to compare Tigers, Cats and Hawks, when they were all at their peak

Facts are, Saints didn't win flags in 2010-11, yet the Tigers did win, 3 in a 4 year stretch

 

[Arr0w]

Thank you finally that’s what I have been saying all along!!! PB is the complete opposite. I agree cats have had the hardest opposition. I just think all dynasty teams would’ve beaten each others opponents. Is that not reasonable?


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It's completely reasonable

 

[Kobe Gryant]

For every post he writes there’s about 5 people quoting him and half of the time insulting him. Imagine if it was some depressed dude and you blokes set them off over the edge.

Hit the ignore button ffs

I get that you're trying to help him...but there's caring about mental health...and then there's just being ignorant to the factors at play.

If he was really bothered by what people like PB are saying to him then he wouldn't keep doing the same thing over and over. It's the definition of insanity, there's a clear pattern of behaviour and he chooses to ignore it.

We don't live in a perfect world mate. He's on a website based upon people expressing their opinions and debating...if he can't handle that then he shouldn't be here.

If PB was attacking him for talking about the weather you'd have a point....but he's not. You can't carry on insulting people and then expect to cop nothing back....it's never been that way and it never will be. It's human nature.

 

[PhatBoy]

Thank you finally that’s what I have been saying all along!!! PB is the complete opposite. I agree cats have had the hardest opposition. I just think all dynasty teams would’ve beaten each others opponents. Is that not reasonable?


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Mate the person he mentioned who said the current Carlton side would beat Geelong of 07 is me. Except I said that the current North Melbourne team would probably do it.

That’s not how inter-era comparisons work.

The only mainstream sport I believe you can do a ‘who would win out of such and such’ and their time period doesn’t matter, is boxing through the last 70 years.

The combination of natural ability, toughness, simpler training methods and the sheer volume of tactical changes that can happen within a fight means outside of video analysis there’s not a lot of advantages modern boxers would have over Ali or Robinson etc. and it has been shown with guys like Foreman and Hopkins winning world titles in their 40s two generations after they first contended.

In other sports, absolutely if you took a modern team or player with current tactics, equipment, fitness standards, sports science, video analysis, etc etc, and put them in a past era of course they would be better.

As you’ve been told many many times though that is not how comparisons work.

There are players on tv as I speak from cricket ‘powerhouse’ Namibia who would be able to play shots 40 years ago that Viv Richards had never seen before, and would be able to score faster and more regularly than he.

Unfortunately when you propose these match-ups, you have to factor in that t20 cricket and ramp shots and reverse sweeps didn’t exist when Richards played. So you have to imagine ‘ok how much better are Namibia than all the other teams at the moment. How damaging are their batsmen in this current World Cup compared to their opponents? How much exposure have they had to the very best bowlers?’

So when you imagine Namibia playing Viv’s West Indies team, the right conclusion as to how they would go? Their batsmen would end up mostly in hospital as they probably wouldn’t have helmets, and their bowlers would be picking balls up from nearby parkland for a week after the game

 

[Sky]

I get that you're trying to help him...but there's caring about mental health...and then there's just being ignorant to the factors at play.

If he was really bothered by what people like PB are saying to him then he wouldn't keep doing the same thing over and over. It's the definition of insanity, there's a clear pattern of behaviour and he chooses to ignore it.

We don't live in a perfect world mate. He's on a website based upon people expressing their opinions and debating...if he can't handle that then he shouldn't be here.

If PB was attacking him for talking about the weather you'd have a point....but he's not. You can't carry on insulting people and then expect to cop nothing back....it's never been that way and it never will be. It's human nature.

That’s the one guy I haven’t seen attack him. Strange example to give me and yes I’m deflecting.

 

[Falcon3518]

You still don't get it, do you?

PB is not the complete opposite - we both understand the game well enough to know how much it evolves decade on decade, but we are both astute enough (not that you need to have too much in the way of rational thinking to do so) to be able to compare the relative strength of different teams from different eras to conclude, for example, that St. Kilda 2009/10 were a superior team to Richmond 2017 to 2020.

What? You said we’d beat Geelong but not St Kilda?

Yes he is, he says you have to take into account cats being born 15 years later, make up a new game plan, new training food and even cellular structure. And no I’m not making that up he said with Donald Bradman you have to assume he’d get taller and some other s**t being born later to then be able to compare with modern day cricketers. The time travel thing you just said he is 100% against and says you can’t do that.


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[Fadge]

What? You said we’d beat Geelong but not St Kilda?

Yes he is, he says you have to take into account cats being born 15 years later, make up a new game plan, new training food and even cellular structure. And no I’m not making that up he said with Donald Bradman you have to assume he’d get taller and some other s**t being born later to then be able to compare with modern day cricketers. The time travel thing you just said he is 100% against and says you can’t do that.

I give up.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

That’s the one guy I haven’t seen attack him. Strange example to give me and yes I’m deflecting.

I'll be honest, I really don't care enough about the situation to find examples....all I know is those two go head to head in 90% of threads so I assume insults have been thrown at some point.

 

[PhatBoy]

Whether you or anyone else thinks the Saints of that era would or wouldn't have beaten the Tigers through 17,19, 20, matters little, as it's all conjecture

The same way, it would be to compare Tigers, Cats and Hawks, when they were all at their peak

Facts are, Saints didn't win flags in 2010-11, yet the Tigers did win, 3 in a 4 year stretch

Of course it’s conjecture it doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed and ‘here’s why I or others think this.’

Even one of the reasons he provided in order to rag on that St Kilda team told a story as it directly contradicted one of the things he likes to pin his arguments on:

He cited the 6 starters in the St Kilda backline: ‘they have no hall of famers there so they were rubbish.’
Well statistically they were the best backline this millenium in 2009 and in the top 6 for the millenium in 2010.

So…… that would suggest that their gameplan, their teamwork and their, wait for it - system - were very, very effective wouldn’t it?

But then he will turn around and say ‘teams from that era can’t be taken seriously because they didn’t have systems everything was man on man there was no flooding’ etc.

The points on which he hangs his arguments contradict one another

 

[Falcon3518]

I give up.

Dude did you not just say if Richmond went back in a Time Machine we’d beat Geelong? What is your definition of a superior side cause this is getting confusing?


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[PhatBoy]

Dude did you not just say if Richmond went back in a Time Machine we’d beat Geelong? What is your definition of a superior side cause this is getting confusing?


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Dear oh dear

 

[Arr0w]

Of course it’s conjecture it doesn’t mean it can’t be discussed and ‘here’s why I or others think this.’

Even one of the reasons he provided in order to rag on that St Kilda team told a story as it directly contradicted one of the things he likes to pin his arguments on:

He cited the 6 starters in the St Kilda backline: ‘they have no hall of famers there so they were rubbish.’
Well statistically they were the best backline this millenium in 2009 and in the top 6 for the millenium in 2010.

So…… that would suggest that their gameplan, their teamwork and their, wait for it - system - were very, very effective wouldn’t it?

But then he will turn around and say ‘teams from that era can’t be taken seriously because they didn’t have systems everything was man on man there was no flooding’ etc.

The points on which he hangs his arguments contradict one another

My view, it has nothing to do with hall of famers, AA, or statistics or any other form of analysis

The 2 eras are poles apart, when you consider the 6 6 6 rule or any other rule interpretation, gameplans, etc

The Saints of that era may have been able to adapt to the current climate, same goes for the Tigers, if the side that won 3 flags was transported back to 2010-11

Neither side of the debate can lean on facts to support their opinion, as there are too many varying factors

 

[Sky]

I'll be honest, I really don't care enough about the situation to find examples....all I know is those two go head to head in 90% of threads so I assume insults have been thrown at some point.

It seems to infect every thread.

 

[Falcon3518]

My view, it has nothing to do with hall of famers, AA, or statistics or any other form of analysis

The 2 eras are poles apart, when you consider the 6 6 6 rule or any other rule interpretation, gameplans, etc

The Saints of that era may have been able to adapt to the current climate, same goes for the Tigers, if the side that won 3 flags was transported back to 2010-11

Neither side of the debate can lean on facts to support their opinion, as there are too many varying factors

Yeah there seems to be 2 schools of thought here. 1 is taking the teams as they are and not change anything apart from the rules in their respective time travelling.

And 2 is people like PB and I think Fadge are saying if saints evolved to play in this period they’d beat us.

To me there are too many different variables in option 2 compared to option 1, because it makes to many assumptions like a revamped team system, training, nutrition etc. Like who would know what they would come up with? It’s essentially a different team at that point. So I go for option 1 as it’s the closest to what the teams actually are/produced.


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[Arr0w]

Yeah there seems to be 2 schools of thought here. 1 is taking the teams as they are and not change anything apart from the rules in their respective time travelling.

And 2 is people like PB and I think Fadge are saying if saints evolved to play in this period they’d beat us.

To me there are too many different variables in option 2 compared to option 1, because it makes to many assumptions like a revamped team system, training, nutrition etc. Like who would know what they would come up with? It’s essentially a different team at that point. So I go for option 1 as it’s the closest to what the teams actually are/produced.


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Either option essentially comes to the same outcome, there is not factual conclusion

 

[PhatBoy]

My view, it has nothing to do with hall of famers, AA, or statistics or any other form of analysis

The 2 eras are poles apart, when you consider the 6 6 6 rule or any other rule interpretation, gameplans, etc

The Saints of that era may have been able to adapt to the current climate, same goes for the Tigers, if the side that won 3 flags was transported back to 2010-11

Neither side of the debate can lean on facts to support their opinion, as there are too many varying factors

I don’t disagree with the principle of that at all

 

[Falcon3518]

The Falcon and the Phat Boy make these threads, without them these threads would be so boring. Believe me, because I always tell it like it is, the day these two aren't going at it will be a sad day for BigFooty.

Falcon Phat Boy but I can't log out without giving you a

I’ll go back at it eventually need some time to cool off. Some more interesting threads need to be made by somebody though.


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[Rimmer]

If its going to be Carlton or Essendon its unlikely any of us on these forums will be still living to see it. Collingwood have won 2 since 1958. The last 3 on the list are 4 premierships short ... Melbourne has won 1 since 1964, Richmond has won 8 since 1967, Hawthorn has won all 13 of its premierships from 1961. Hawthorn seems to win its premierships in groups ...

I guess all the clubs would be content just to win the next one.

 

[Deadly Assassin]

How has this thread turned into a discussion about whether or not St Kilda's 2009 side would beat any of Richmond's 2017-2020 sides?

Richmond had a four year window of contending and finishing top 4 and got three flags out of it.

Every other club would kill for that strike rate except for Hawthorn who won four flags of their own, despite only making finals in 10 of the last 20 years.

Essendon 1999-2001 finished top of the ladder for three years running yet only have one flag to show for it.

Port Adelaide 2002-2004 finished top of the ladder for three years running yet only have one flag to show for it.

Sydney have made 17 of the last 20 finals series yet only have two flags to show for it. Compare this to Geelong, who have also made 17 of the last 20 finals series yet they have four flags to show for it.

Brisbane 2019-2022 have had a solid four year period of contending yet have nothing to show for it.

St Kilda 2008-2011 and Fremantle 2012-2015 both under Ross Lyon had solid four year periods of contending, yet have nothing to show for it.

Back on topic, the smart money would be on Carlton, but I have a good feeling we're brewing something special under Fly.
However, I'm not getting ahead of myself, as there's every chance our 2022 turns out to be like 2014 was for Port under Hinkley.