NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[ferball]

oh god the AFL as a saviour?
go to bed

Not the AFL but football.

They are different things. The AFL probably doesn't want people to think that tho.

 

[Gralin]

Not the AFL but football.

i think there is some truth in sport building connections but also you can see the absolute worst of racism with it as well
this idea that sport is "special" is part of the problem, its how they get away with doing things to players that no other workplace on the planet could do

grass roots you might have community from sport but professional leagues bank off that while being soulless corporations these days

They are different things. The AFL probably doesn't want people to think that tho.

agreed

 

[western royboy]

"Don't shoot the messenger" is crap. Jackson isn't a postie ffs.

Sorry you’ll have to explain yourself a bit better - how should it have been handled?

 

[mcnulty]

Yeah and look at the s**t they've copped since, even while anonymous.

Not as much s**t as those they’ve accused. And what did they think would happen, going publicly as they did?

They’ve chosen the terms of this by going to the media. Until right now, when other terms have been presented. Now they seem to want to choose their own terms again. What about that don’t you get?

 

[Osho]

I heard someone say the other day that so much of what is alleged is part of the AFL's boarding school culture.

Boarding schools control the life of their students, and AFL clubs have embraced that culture.

So many draftees come from boarding schools / elite schools.

When players get recruited they get boarded by the club with families. Their lives are taken over.

It is not a shock for most eighteen year old AFL players to enter that boarding school culture... but it is a huge shock and potentially dangerous for an eighteen year old from a remote indigenous community to enter it


Note: I don't mean to downplay the allegations by raising this analogy.

I think modern day boarding schools are much better than when I was young fella. They provide very supportive and safe environments. Parents are fully engaged. My son is boarding, loves it and questions why we didn't spend all this dosh a few years earlier.

 

[mcnulty]

I think modern day boarding schools are much better than when I was young fella

Reminds me of a joke. English POWs, on the Burma Railway. 16 hours of labour and regular beatings and into a bamboo cage at night, sleeping standing up in a crowded cell knee deep in their own filth.

Anyway, one of these poor souls is screaming to himself in his sleep, wakes up and looks around:

”Oh thank god. I dreamt I was back at boarding school”.

 

[ferball]

That is very tricky.

It might not do the indegenous community or the country any favours if anglo-saxans in power start issuing apologies just to make people feel better and not because they felt they did anything wrong. It kind of turns "sorry" into a means of controlling people.

Its a start yeah.

 

[Osho]

Reminds me of a joke. English POWs, on the Burma Railway. 16 hours of labour and regular beatings and into a bamboo cage at night, sleeping standing up in a crowded cell knee deep in their own filth.

Anyway, one of these poor souls is screaming to himself in his sleep, wakes up and looks around:

”Oh thank god. I dreamt I was back at boarding school”.

ROAR!
Oliver Twist!

 

[ferball]

I heard someone say the other day that so much of what is alleged is part of the AFL's boarding school culture.

Boarding schools control the life of their students, and AFL clubs have embraced that culture.

So many draftees come from boarding schools / elite schools.

When players get recruited they get boarded by the club with families. Their lives are taken over.

It is not a shock for most eighteen year old AFL players to enter that boarding school culture... but it is a huge shock and potentially dangerous for an eighteen year old from a remote indigenous community to enter it


Note: I don't mean to downplay the allegations by raising this analogy.

Yeah this is a very good point. Its the gentrification of footy in some ways. Gentrification often targets hurts the poor and alienated.

 

[Gralin]

Not as much s**t as those they’ve accused. And what did they think would happen, going publicly as they did?

They’ve chosen the terms of this by going to the media. Until right now, when other terms have been presented. Now they seem to want to choose their own terms again. What about that don’t you get?

i can't tell if you have zero understanding of power dynamics, or you do and you're trying to protect the existing power base

 

[ferball]

i think there is some truth in sport building connections but also you can see the absolute worst of racism with it as well
this idea that sport is "special" is part of the problem, its how they get away with doing things to players that no other workplace on the planet could do

grass roots you might have community from sport but professional leagues bank off that while being soulless corporations these days

The connections that get built often seem to come from people in societies that share the same space but are otherwise separate and in some ways were still at war with each other. That's where the value comes from. Playing the same game they are passionate about gives something that both sides have in common. That is the beginning of recognising common humanity. Definitely works at a grass roots level. Not with everyone, as you say racism is still a part of sport.

In the VFL/AFL once these players became great and people idolised them they were able to demand fair treatment and enough of the population listened that the AFL changed the rules around vilification. It was a good step on a journey we still haven't finished. The AFL doesn't really deserve credit, they should have acted earlier, but the game does.

As a young black kid who got to melbourne when Jim and Phil got to North I never felt out of place or like I didn't belong at Arden St . Unlike just about everywhere else. It might not have happened without them being there.

 

[ferball]

Not as much s**t as those they’ve accused. And what did they think would happen, going publicly as they did?

They’ve chosen the terms of this by going to the media. Until right now, when other terms have been presented. Now they seem to want to choose their own terms again. What about that don’t you get?

They probably thought nothing would happen. That it would be ignored and that no one gave a s**t.

 

[Gralin]

The connections that get built often seem to come from people in societies that share the same space but are otherwise separate and in some ways were still at war with each other. That's where the value comes from. Playing the same game they are passionate about gives something that both sides have in common. That is the beginning of recognising common humanity. Definitely works at a grass roots level. Not with everyone, as you say racism is still a part of sport.

In the VFL/AFL once these players became great and people idolised them they were able to demand fair treatment and enough of the population listened that the AFL changed the rules around vilification. It was a good step on a journey we still haven't finished. The AFL doesn't really deserve credit, they should have acted earlier, but the game does.

As a young black kid who got to melbourne when Jim and Phil got to North I never felt out of place or like I didn't belong at Arden St . Unlike just about everywhere else. It might not have happened without them being there.

look I'm not saying it hasn't ever helped

but at the end of the day civil rights movements are not sports leagues, they can be a part of the picture, they can be a way you can make some change but their primary purpose isn't making change, its winning, acceptance is based on being valuable to the cause

don't get me wrong there have been very many powerful social moments in sport for decades, but that has almost 100% been down to the individuals against the wishes of the competition at the time

Money is very good at adapting to what sells, sport is no different at the highest levels and if someone shows them that acceptance sells they will jump on board.

I don't see leagues as change motivators, its generally individual players and as we've seen time and time again and are seeing in this thread they pay a massive price for that, often without support at the time from the league

 

[sr36]

Not as much s**t as those they’ve accused. And what did they think would happen, going publicly as they did?

They’ve chosen the terms of this by going to the media. Until right now, when other terms have been presented. Now they seem to want to choose their own terms again. What about that don’t you get?

Damn those victims for telling their story. And now that they've told it they should just bow down and follow whatever rules are imposed on them by the organisation that was their ultimate employer during their grievances. ******* hell.

Rather than the AFL trying to rush through an inquiry in a month, how about they spend the month trying to negotiate an inquiry that those affected will participate in. An inquiry that actually tries to find out what went on, rathr than imposing an inquiry that the claimants might not participate in and will thus be a complete waste of time,but will be wrapped up in time for preseason to start properly...

 

[Area51]

Damn those victims for telling their story. And now that they've told it they should just bow down and follow whatever rules are imposed on them by the organisation that was their ultimate employer during their grievances. ******* hell.

Rather than the AFL trying to rush through an inquiry in a month, how about they spend the month trying to negotiate an inquiry that those affected will participate in. An inquiry that actually tries to find out what went on, rathr than imposing an inquiry that the claimants might not participate in and will thus be a complete waste of time.

it's more likely the AFL have designed the tor exactly so they won't participate so rather than being a waste of time from the AFL's perspective it will deliver exactly the outcome they want.

 

[sr36]

it's more likely the AFL have designed the tor exactly so they won't participate so rather than being a waste of time from the AFL's perspective it will deliver exactly the outcome they want.

I'm cynical, but not that cynical. I don't think they're aiming for a white wash, but I think their priority isn't justice, it's having it done and dusted before preseason goes full scale straight after XMAS.

 

[Area51]

I'm cynical, but not that cynical. I don't think they're aiming for a white wash, but I think their priority isn't justice, it's having it done and dusted before preseason goes full scale straight after XMAS.

They've announced that Clarko and Fagan can go back to work soon and even commended them, I'd say that's indicative of a whitewash.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I don't get why so many people are hung up on Jackson.

I'm saying the allegations should be investigated by a body with the powers of a Royal Commission.

I appear to take them far more seriously than you, who thinks one article is unimpeachable truth

All your doing is disparaging Jackson and not commenting on the contents of his article.

Speak to the article and stop taking the easy way out of shooting the messenger.

What are your sacred of , being challenged by BF posters who disagree with your naive stance???

 

[Slartibartfast]

"Don't shoot the messenger" is crap. Jackson isn't a postie ffs.

You are a spineless.

Tell use what Jacksons article is not right ??? Stop being a coward.

You are a true spectator on Life.

 

[mcnulty]

Damn those victims for telling their story. And now that they've told it they should just bow down and follow whatever rules are imposed on them by the organisation that was their ultimate employer during their grievances. ******* hell.

Rather than the AFL trying to rush through an inquiry in a month, how about they spend the month trying to negotiate an inquiry that those affected will participate in. An inquiry that actually tries to find out what went on, rathr than imposing an inquiry that the claimants might not participate in and will thus be a complete waste of time,but will be wrapped up in time for preseason to start properly...

You really don’t get it, no matter how much it’s explained to you. They knew they were part of an ongoing investigation when they went to the media. This has accelerated the process and made it very public. People have been suggesting, perhaps logically, that they went to the AFL to force their hand. Now people are claiming they’re ”sick” of it. Or worried it’s being rushed, which I don’t buy for a second.

As another poster put it, this is head hurting stuff. They have their chance to substantiate their claims to a panel that appears culturally sensitive and has been given independence from the AFL. They are being encouraged to take it.

 

[mcnulty]

i can't tell if you have zero understanding of power dynamics, or you do and you're trying to protect the existing power base

0 for 2. About par for you.

 

[western royboy]

No investigation = cover up
Investigation = cover up
God this is brain hurting stuff.

How are people questioning the independence of the 4 person panel? Some of the most proven indigenous advocates in the country. If Clarko, Fagan, Burt or Hawthorn did anything untoward, it’ll be uncovered.

If Judy Courtin believes the process to be so fundamentally flawed (rushed, white washed, beholden to AFL policies) then take up action on behalf on your clients through the Australian legal system.

Or is the lack of evidence and impartiality of the legal system to much to take the case on? Or don’t you want to do it pro bono?
Nice photo though, will go with your George Pell one nicely.

Whether you like it or not the option of legal action is a very valid option and if so it would be the major reason why the persons making the claims would not engage with the AFL as it may hinder their case. This is a delicate legal matter and no one on here knows what or where it will go.

Judy Courtin has held one of the biggest organisations in Australia to account on behalf of multiple victims, she knows a bit about power imbalance. Quoting George Pell doesn’t help your post, he was found by the Royal Commission to have knowledge of serial child abusers and done nothing, their are multiple accusations that he is a historical abuser of boys, albeit unproven in court. I know a fair bit about this area, I was a client of Judy Courtin’s, I attend a mens group for survivors of child abuse. There are victims of Pell in the group. It’s a lot of effort to go to if you just made it up.

 

[HairyO]

it's more likely the AFL have designed the tor exactly so they won't participate so rather than being a waste of time from the AFL's perspective it will deliver exactly the outcome they want.

The AFL want them involved so it doesnt go to court where they have zero control.

What more could the AFL have done ?

 

[The Warlord]

Sorry you’ll have to explain yourself a bit better - how should it have been handled?

He should have not named the coaches in his initial article for a start.

 

[The Warlord]

You are a spineless.

Tell use what Jacksons article is not right ??? Stop being a coward.

You are a true spectator on Life.

How many times do I have to say I have no problem believing the people in the report and Jackson's article are genuine and their allegations should be tested in a forum with formal legal powers.