Society/Culture Andrew Thorburn - Controversial appointment as Essendon CEO. Broader discussion not for the AFL board..

[SBD Gonzalez]

You didn’t even ask for that? Okay you keep to your rock god then.

I have no god.

(Chances are, neither do you.)

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I’ve always wondered if Jesus had have been guillotined would it be ‘the power of the razor blade?’

Comedian Austen Tayshus, who is Jewish, used to say "Christians have the best iconography. Imagine walking into a church and there's a big effing electric chair up there on the wall."

 

[raskolnikov]

I think Sir Isaac Newton might have had something to say about that.

Not saying that there haven't been Christians who have been intellectual in other fields but systematic Christianity relies on speculation and faith rather than intellect, especially the modern-day Pentecostal churches like Hillsong where you're encouraged to leave your brain at the door.

 

[Daniel B]

I don't understand how the Catholic church and other churches are still eligible for tax free charity status when they aided and abetted paedophilia.

They're not.

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

I have no god.

(Chances are, neither do you.)

Whatever floats your boat

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

We have gotten a little off track here.

We're talking about the EFC, not having a big theological debate. That's not the scope of this thread on this board.

Try the SRP for this type of discussion.

Thanks.

No we’re talking about Chair of Homophobic religious extremist church, Andrew Thorburn appointed as Essendon CEO. Aaaaaand he’s gone. With a particular emphasis on homophobic religious extremist churches and what they believe. A divisive topic with a divisive response. Perhaps this thread would be better suited to the SRP board

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Whatever floats your boat

From a follower of one of the world’s most proselytising religions, that’s a breath of fresh air.

 

[SleepingGiant]

The thread TITLE blatantly mocks a person's membership of a 2000 year old religion for its traditional views on issues such as abortion and LGBTQI+.. while simultaneously banning discussing those views..including whether a biological male pretending to be a biological woman is actually a woman.. or even if we should ban the abortion of babies at any stage be it 15 weeks, 28 weeks.. or 35 weeks for that matter.

Such Courage. Such Tolerance. Such Diversity!

How about posting a thread of Bachar Houli saying "member of Homophobic religious extremist church appointed premiership cup ambassador?" Oh.. no.. that would he racist.

Put the thread title up if you like.. but have the debate about Thornburn, the Church, Abortion etc..otherwise this whole board is pointless.

100% I love what Bachar is doing. You just can’t have it one way for a white guy and one for a minority group because it’s more populist for the left controlled media.

 

[Tiger08]

100% I love what Bachar is doing. You just can’t have it one way for a white guy and one for a minority group because it’s more populist for the left controlled media.

Would agree but post will just be deleted so won't bother. This sort of common sense is hate speech.

 

[Daniel B]

They are.

In Australia, one cannot claim tax deductions for donations made to religious organisations.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

In Australia, one cannot claim tax deductions for donations made to religious organisations.

"Income tax exemption
Being exempt from income tax means your organisation does not need to lodge an income tax return (unless specifically asked to) or pay income tax. To access income tax exemption, a registered religious institution must be a registered charity and endorsed by us as exempt from income tax.'
This is what I"m referring to, churches don't pay taxes on income.

 

[Dave]

Serious question, do you think believing in magic and gods because an old book written by peasants say so should not be ridiculed? Why?

If you had any such nonsensical belief that defied the basic laws of physics and nature you would be laughed at, but slap the label “religion” on it and suddenly it’s a reasonable thought process… hmm

Was reading a book by Richard Dawkins many moons ago. In one chapter he described a regular dinner party he and a number of both religious and non-religious people would attend. At one particular party one of the fairly senior religious types was mocking the natives of a number of south pacific islands for their beleif in the "gods of cargo" during WWII. Was fairly amusing to see someone who believed in a fairy tale mocking others for doing so.

 

[Dave]

Nah mate, because the ‘thought process’ is in Christianity -the longest surviving religion in the world, followed by the most people, and the ‘old book’ translated in more languages then any other book in the world. The thought process is worth more than just slapping a label on it.

You realise Judaism predates Christianity yeah?

 

[SSSSSS]

You realise Judaism predates Christianity yeah?

I don't even think Christianity would even crack the top 10.

The Eastern beliefs of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Confucian, Taoist and Shinto would predate Christianity.

 

[Dave]

Me too, but first I'll go blind.

So * THAT'S * why I need glasses!

 

[Dave]

That is because humans do not understand the knowledge of God, but when Jesus returns and the truth is revealed, they will mourn in agony for eternity.

What a delightful thing for a "loving god" to do.

 

[iameviljez]

In fairness, being agnostic, I find anyone saying that the other side is Definitely Wrong to be pretty off-the-mark in these kind of discussions, but here goes:

How can the universe be in such perfect synergy and order without a master behind it?

It's kind of not in perfect synergy and order. I mean, we are all heading toward the heat death of the universe at some point in time. Everything tends toward decay, disorder and death - thanks, entropy.

Makes a lot more sense than dark matter and dark energy creating it, considering you can't detect it for a start. So apparently no body times nothing equals everything. Scientists can't prove the big bang theory, which is why its a theory. Why are humans so uniquely complex, set apart from all living things with a conscience, intellect and complex skill set.

Certainly, the presence of an intellect and a consciousness is the most pressing argument for the existence of a higher being that I can find.

To believe in the Big Bang is to believe in chance, so if thats the case why do humans bother forming government, making decisions, creating hierachies, order on the streets. The reality is every effect occurs by some cause, not chance.

Chance has been transformed by athiests into a force of causal power. The world and everything in it was the cause of numerous random events. Nothing is the cause of everything? How irrational? How chaotic? How looney? I wonder when the next random event will take place, since that's apparently how it started? A random event which will be less random than before, when nothing became everything. So then we can presume the world will experience something soon when something becomes something completely different. Or maybe something becomes nothing again? How bizarre, how absurd, purely illogical and ridiculous!

I think you're misrepresenting the scientific understanding of the origins of the universe. There's plenty that scientists admit that we don't know - like, for example, why the Big Bang happened. But there is evidence that it did - such as the continued expansion of the universe to this day and heat radiation from the event.

To say it's "chance" is to misrepresent the "we don't know but one day we'll find out". Certainly, the Big Bang theory does NOT posit that the universe started from nothing. It suggests that it started from a very small, very dense piece of matter.

It is actually more scientific that God created the universe than that of the big bang theory. The bible actually has a record of how the world came about.

Why does the Big Bang and the existence of God have to be mutually exclusive? There's pretty ample evidence that the Bible's record of the creation of the universe is incorrect, FWIW.

Then there is the 5 scientific ideas of time, space, force, action and matter which were only suggested 200 years ago. If these scientific terms were eternal before the big bang, then how were things so chaotic causing a big bang? The first verse of the bible, Genesis 1:1 accounts for all 5. "In the beginning (time), God (force), created (action), the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). And this was written well before the 19th century when scientists suggested these 5 ideas for causing everything. Scientists cannot pinpoint the actual origin of everything. The bible does in one verse. It accounts for the ultimate origin of matter, space, time.

Which raises the question: what created God? I don't doubt that science hasn't solved the mystery of where did everything come from; it will probably never solve that mystery. But that doesn't mean that the Bible has the answer either.

Therefore, each person who reads this first verse has a choice to make based on the evidence in front of them, the world you live in. Either you believe God did create everything or you believe he didn't. If he didn't you believe he doesn't exist, nothing makes any sense or has any purpose. If God was a creative intelligence who created the world, then creation is logical and understandable. It is rational and plausible.

Absolutely, you have the right to believe in God and I think that's a fine thing. But I do think that the idea that "nothing makes sense or has any purpose" if you don't believe is bit arrogant - plenty of atheists and agnostics make their own purpose in the world, even if they believe its creation to be without intention.

So either the array of complex organisms and intelligence we observe reflect the wisdom and power of a personal creator, or all these orderly systems somehow evolved randomly and chaotically from dead matter, and this dead matter evolved from unproven matter, and no real sense can be made of anything.

Agreed in part, though I disagree with the notion that the world is all that orderly. In some sense, I'm much more comfortable with no real sense being made of anything - it far better answers questions like why there is such cruel suffering in the world.

 

[Kappa]

I don't even think Christianity would even crack the top 10.

The Eastern beliefs of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Confucian, Taoist and Shinto would predate Christianity.

Using facts against GOTHELIONS16 is horrendously unfair.

 

[Kappa]

Also GOTHELIONS16 denying the Big Bang is about as dumb as denying evolution.

We can literally see the Big Bang, it’s a fact, do some basic research.

 

[HairyO]

Was reading a book by Richard Dawkins many moons ago. In one chapter he described a regular dinner party he and a number of both religious and non-religious people would attend. At one particular party one of the fairly senior religious types was mocking the natives of a number of south pacific islands for their beleif in the "gods of cargo" during WWII. Was fairly amusing to see someone who believed in a fairy tale mocking others for doing so.

Bill Maher talks about how there used to be thousands of gods but now there is just one.

So being atheist is pretty easy these days because all it takes is believing in one less god.

Plus many parts of the world you no longer get killed for it.

 

[Maddo11]

Also GOTHELIONS16 denying the Big Bang is about as dumb as denying evolution.

We can literally see the Big Bang, it’s a fact, do some basic research.

But when I look at the sunrise, I can see God in all he created

I don't think this thread is coming back from this

 

[Thrawn]

Also GOTHELIONS16 denying the Big Bang is about as dumb as denying evolution.

We can literally see the Big Bang, it’s a fact, do some basic research.

The true answer to the big bang is: we don't know.



Please do not pretend it's as scandalous as denying evolution.

 

[GOTHELIONS16]

The true answer to the big bang is: we don't know.



Please do not pretend it's as scandalous as denying evolution.

Yep, and on the other hand. The validity of the bible and God as the creator, we can be sure of.

Genesis was written 1400 BC! Wait, BC! This isn't part of my argument, but BC stands for before Christ. Anyway...

In Saudi Arabia, they are currently building what is to be the tallest building in the world. It’s called the Jeddah Tower. It will have 167 floors and be 1km high. The design of that has to compensate for the movement of the ground, the wind, the air, and all the massive complexity of weight and density in a building over 1km high. They’re on the way to building it. It’ll be four stories higher than another building that’s already finished, that’s 163 floors up. They have to design it with flexibility so it can move slightly. They have to design it to bear all the complexity of the weight and all the systems it contains. They do that with amazing engineering based on fixed laws. If there was any question about the absolute nature of those laws, the whole thing would crumble. And there isn't any question because, everything in the world has fixed laws.

And then theres the complex detail in the reality of the universe. Sitting on your laptops right now, you are 2.5 million km from where you were yesterday. Because our solar system is moving through the universe that fast. The earth spins at a specific tilt on its axis, perfectly designed to get 4 seasons which cause things to grow to feed people. But this also has to contend with the earth spinning at 1,600 km per hour.

Then you add the Earth's orbit, an orbit moving us around the sun going 100,000 kilometres per hour.

So in summary we are:

• spinning at 1,600 km an hour
• moving in an orbit going 100, 000km an hour
• our solar system is orbiting through space at 800,000 km per hour

And then all the galaxies in our neighbourhood are moving as well. NASA says we're all moving toward the Great Attractor, a region in space they say is 150 million light-years away. Where 1 light year equals 6 trillion miles. And they say the great attractor is a mass of one quintillion times greater than that of the Sun. This Great Attractor has a span of 500 million light years, made of visible material and is moving!

The solar system is going at almost 1 million km per hour, and is in an orbit that will take 230 billion years to complete. And yet we are sitting still at our laptops. Because we are moving at the exact same speed as our solar system. The atmosphere has to also move at the exact same speed. A genius must have figured that out!

The human race definitely didn't know this thousands of years ago.

The bible states "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. The sun like a strong man, runs its course. It's rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

SO the bible tells us the Sun runs a course, the orbit dragging our solar system around the Milky Way. The sun is on a course to go through the heavens in a massive orbit.

And then there is the atmoshpere that has to go with us. Now this is significant because if the earth stopped spinning, the atmosphere would keep moving, and it would rip everything off the Earth and the world would be instantaneously incinerated. And this is possible because we don't even know why the earth spins. This is exactly the fear said in the ultimate apocalyptic biohazard of NASA.

Again, what we know now, the bible understood thousands of years ago. 2 Peter 3:7-10 says "But by his word, the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. Do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but all to come to repentance. The day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

This rings true to NASA's grim predictions but try predicting that 2000 years ago

And this is the point. The Bible reflects the understanding of reality, current understanding, well before its time.

First reality: Genesis 1:1 tells you all 5 elements of the universe, the 5 elements of the universe only laid out by Science a century ago. "In the beginning(time), God (force) created (action) the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).

Second reality: The universe must be created by a power greater than itself. It is ludicrous to believe everything rose from something less than itself. The reality is it has to come from a source thats more than it is, and this source had to come from a person. Otherwise, material would need to be eternal, that is material without any information there to make it. We now understand that everything operates by information. Science can never demonstrate that you can have something simple become complex, or something spontaneously occur that reengineers an operating entity without any external information. So where does all this massive universe full of information come from? Every living thing is a complicated machine operated on information. 30 trillion cells in your body. There has to be a source of this information. The all-powerful creator speaks.

Third reality: the Bible knew things about creation that humankind and other religions didn't. The earth is spherical, turning on an axis, suspended in space. The bible knows the earth is sweeping through space in an orbit and rotation. He knows its attached to the Sun, which is running from one end of space to the other. He knows the stars, galaxies and the staggering reaches of space. He knows the cycles of air and water. So he knows chemistry, biology, maths, energy, atomic structure. He knows all because he made it all. So if he wrote a book, if the Creator wrote a book, it would reflect this knowledge. And the Bible does just that!

Other relgions got it wrong!
Hindu: The moon is 50000 leagues higher than the sun and has its own light. The earth is flat and triangular and sits on the heads of countless elephants who produce earthquakes when they shake.

Hindu Upanishad: The sun is the source of all energy in the universe.

Taoists: There are only 13 members of the body through which death can come.

Buddhists: Earthquakes are caused by wind moving water and water moving land.

And if you're not convinced, the bible says in Isaiah 40:26 that it is God who creates the universe; and it says He holds the stars together by His power, and not one of them is missing. This is the first law of thermodynamics, that nothing is ever destroyed.

Then in Ecclesiastes 1:10, 'Is there anything of which one might say, 'See this, it is new?' And the answer follows, "Already it has existed for ages which were before us"
These are by ancient writers of the Bible, thousands of years before the laws of thermodynamics were discovered, affirming the conservation of mass and energy- nothing is ever lost.

And the water cycle is an example of this law. Ecclesiastes 1 says All the rivers flow into the sea yet the sea is not full. To the place where the rivers flow, there they flow again. Isaiah 55:10 says "For the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return there without watering the earth." Then Job 36 speaks of evaporation and condensation: "God draws up the drops of water, they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, they drip upon man abundantly." The Creator knows the cycle of water.

It was 1500s when Capernicus first presented the idea of a moving earth. It was around that time Galileo and Kepler came with modern astronomy, at the time they thought there were a thousand stars. Well, if they'd just read Genesis theyd know better than that. "I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. Only these days are scientists telling us there are trillions of galaxies. The Creator knew that too, the Bible tells us.

Job talks about the earth turning on its axis, Isaiah speaks of the circle of the earth, not flat!

The bible knows everything about the world before we did, and that is because the author is the creator of it all, and knows all.

 

[Brad Goodman]

I hope nobody wasted as much time reading that as you did writing it. Even scrolling past it took ages.

 

[Chief]

The bible states "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. The sun like a strong man, runs its course. It's rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

SO the bible tells us the Sun runs a course, the orbit dragging our solar system around the Milky Way. The sun is on a course to go through the heavens in a massive orbit.

Wait how did you arrive at that conclusion?