Analysis Which team out of Essendon, Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth?

[TheUnicorn]

Could do something like this, IDK. Opens a bit of room for some debate/rebuttal and see where people rate teams players.


23 & Under in 2023.

DELIST/NO GOOD	POTENTIAL/TOO SOON	GOOD PROSPECTS	ALREADY GOOD
	Tex Wanganeen	Nick Bryan	Sam Durham
	Patrick Voss	Massimo D'Ambrosio	Ben Hobbs
	Jye Menzie	Nik Cox	Archie Perkins
	Josh Eyre	Zach Reid	Nic Martin
	Kaine Baldwin	Harrison Jones	Jye Caldwell
	Cian McBride

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

ALL READY GOOD

 

[HeHateMe]

Essendon only started their rebuild they don't have the quantity of young guys the others have, they do have the strongest group of 25/26 year olds though....

If I was to do Hawthorns in the 4 tiers....

All Ready Good:
Jiath, Moore, Newcombe, Day, Ward
Good Prospects:
Kosi, Blanck, Maginness, Macdonald, Stephens, DGB, Brockman, Butler, Morris
Potential/Too Soon:
Jeka, Ramsden, Serong, O'Hara, Long
DELIST/No Good:
Mitchell

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Essendon only started their rebuild they don't have the quantity of young guys the others have, they do have the strongest group of 25/26 year olds though....

If I was to do Hawthorns in the 4 tiers....

All Ready Good:
Jiath, Moore, Newcombe, Day, Ward
Good Prospects:
Kosi, Blanck, Maginness, Macdonald, Stephens, DGB, Brockman, Butler, Morris
Potential/Too Soon:
Jeka, Ramsden, Serong, O'Hara, Long
DELIST/No Good:
Mitchell

Harsh very harsh on Seamus, would like to know your reasoning too.

 

[HeHateMe]

Harsh very harsh on Seamus, would like to know your reasoning too.

Don't know if his body will hold up

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Don't know if his body will hold up

Still think it's too early to tell, very talented, highly skillful & quick with an aggression and hunger, good footy iq etc.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

23 and under imo

Crows 23 & under...

B: Jones 22, Butts 22, Murray 21
HB: Hamill 21, Worrell 21, Hinge 23
C: Sholl 22, Soligo 19, Taylor 19
HF: Pedlar 19, Fogarty 22, Rankine 22
F: Gollant 20, Thilthorpe 21, Rachele 19
R: Himmelberg 23, Schoenberg 21, Berry 20
I: Parnell 20, Hately 21, Cook 19, McHenry 21
Sub: Murphy 23
E: McAsey 22, Nankervis 18, Borlase 19, Newchurch 19, McPherson 22

All the 23 have played AFL, except Taylor who I expect will debut early next season.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

DELIST/No Good:
Mitchell

Wash your mouth out.

 

[eth-dog]

Adelaide for me. As for our 22 under 23 (including Davey twins because we've committed to them and haven't got enough):

FB: Alastair Lord - Zach Reid - Josh Eyre
HB: Nik Cox - Cian McBride - Massimo D'Ambrosio
MF: Sam Durham - Ben Hobbs - Nic Martin
HF: Tex Wanganeen - Harrison Jones - Alwyn Davey

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

jr
FF: Patrick Voss - Kaine Baldwin - Jye Menzie
OB: Nick Bryan - Jye Caldwell

6

Jye Caldwell

Age

23

Ht

183cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.3

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.7

5star

CL

1.8

4star

D

14.3

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

7.3

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.3

4star

CL

1.8

4star

D

13.6

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.8

5star

CL

1.6

4star

- Archie Perkins
IC: Jayden Davey - Elijah Tsatas/George Wardlaw - Pick 22 - Anthony Munkara (maybe)

In a perfect world we manage to get a defender and Munkara slip through so we can get him as a Category B rookie.

Defence probably needs a bit more defensive toughness about it, Lord and D'Ambrosio are really good offensively but aren't strong defensively.

Midfield obviously looks strong, especially if we add either Wardlaw or Tsatas, with both Durham and Martin pretty strong on the outside already, and guys like Hobbs, Perkins and Caldwell in the guts.

I think we have a few too many forwards there, but all of Jones, Baldwin and Voss have shown some very good signs at either level. Menzie I'm really bullish on.

 

[owen87]

Adelaide for me. As for our 22 under 23 (including Davey twins because we've committed to them and haven't got enough):

FB: Alastair Lord - Zach Reid - Josh Eyre
HB: Nik Cox - Cian McBride - Massimo D'Ambrosio
MF: Sam Durham - Ben Hobbs - Nic Martin
HF: Tex Wanganeen - Harrison Jones - Alwyn Davey jr
FF: Patrick Voss - Kaine Baldwin - Jye Menzie
OB: Nick Bryan - Jye Caldwell - Archie Perkins
IC: Jayden Davey - Elijah Tsatas/George Wardlaw - Pick 22 - Anthony Munkara (maybe)

In a perfect world we manage to get a defender and Munkara slip through so we can get him as a Category B rookie.

Defence probably needs a bit more defensive toughness about it, Lord and D'Ambrosio are really good offensively but aren't strong defensively.

Midfield obviously looks strong, especially if we add either Wardlaw or Tsatas, with both Durham and Martin pretty strong on the outside already, and guys like Hobbs, Perkins and Caldwell in the guts.

I think we have a few too many forwards there, but all of Jones, Baldwin and Voss have shown some very good signs at either level. Menzie I'm really bullish on.

The big thing is that pretty much every KPP has a question mark on them still, they're all very young.

2025 should be when we know if Reid & Cox are going to be star KPP's, AFL standard, or not make it which will make a big difference in how the list profile is viewed IMO.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Could do something like this, IDK. Opens a bit of room for some debate/rebuttal and see where people rate teams players.


23 & Under in 2023.

DELIST/NO GOOD	POTENTIAL/TOO SOON	GOOD PROSPECTS	ALL READY GOOD
	Tex Wanganeen	Nick Bryan	Sam Durham
	Patrick Voss	Massimo D'Ambrosio	Ben Hobbs
	Jye Menzie	Nik Cox	Archie Perkins
	Josh Eyre	Zach Reid	Nic Martin
	Kaine Baldwin	Harrison Jones	Jye Caldwell
	Cian McBride

Okay, I'll play.

23 & under in 2023.

Senior games played in parenthesis.

I'm not including Sheezel and Wardlaw.

To keep it real I decided I couldn't put any 20+ games players in the "Too Raw" category unless they're a ruck or KPP.

UNLIKELY	TOO RAW	GOOD PROSPECTS	ALREADY GOOD
Mahoney (42)	Xerri (24)	Will Phillips (16)	Luke Davies-Uniake (71)
Lazzaro (24)	Coleman-Jones (29)	Flynn Perez (19)	Tarryn Thomas (57)
Spicer (6)	Ford (8)		Paul Curtis (15)
Bonar (32)	Edwards (0)		Curtis Taylor (52)
	Bergman (1)		Bailey Scott (55)
	Goater (1)		Tom Powell (31)
	Archer (3)		Jaidyn Stephenson (89)
	Comben (2)		Lachie Young (43)

 

[Elite Master]

Okay, I'll play.

23 & under in 2023.

Senior games played in parenthesis.

I'm not including Sheezel and Wardlaw.

To keep it real I decided I couldn't put any 20+ games players in the "Too Raw" category unless they're a ruck or KPP.

UNLIKELY	TOO RAW	GOOD PROSPECTS	ALREADY GOOD
Mahoney (42)	Xerri (24)	Will Phillips (16)	Luke Davies-Uniake (71)
Lazzaro (24)	Coleman-Jones (29)	Flynn Perez (19)	Tarryn Thomas (57)
Spicer (6)	Ford (8)		Paul Curtis (15)
Bonar (32)	Edwards (0)		Curtis Taylor (52)
	Bergman (1)		Bailey Scott (55)
	Goater (1)		Tom Powell (31)
	Archer (3)		Jaidyn Stephenson (89)
	Comben (2)		Lachie Young (43)

Hate to be negative but I worry about some of our 'already good' u23's namely Sleveo, Scott, Taylor and Young.

 

[TheUnicorn]

ALL READY GOOD

In my defence I was rushing so I could get on call of duty with the boys.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Hate to be negative but I worry about some of our 'already good' u23's namely Sleveo, Scott, Taylor and Young.

Not negative at all!
My rationale:
Bailey Scott came 3rd in the BnF. He's the closest thing we have to a lock on the wing. He's fine.
Based on their 2022 performances, Taylor and Young are at worst decent role players. They might not be best 22 locks going forward, but they've got enough good attributes to put them in that top 25 mix.
Sleevo I agree has massive question marks over him but he's shown that his best is very good.
He's a hard one to peg for this exercise, because I felt like I couldn't classify an 89 gamer as a "good prospect" but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's "unlikely" just yet. Very keen to see how he goes under Clarko, we'll know a lot more by the bye I suspect.

 

[Sirlemsip]

Going with players currently 23 and under:

FB: Morris - Blanck - Long
HB: Jiath - DGB - Day
C: Maguiness - Moore - Morrison
HF: MacDonald - Koschitzke - Serong
FF: Butler - Jeka - Brockman
R: Ramsden - Ward - Newcombe
IC: Worpel - O'Hara - Mitchell - Stephens

A few there that are definitely unproven, but we are stacked at the 24-year age bracket with some very good players that are all best 22:
- Reeves, Mitch Lewis, Scrimshaw, Nash, Meek, Bramble

 

[Guardian Hawk]

DELIST/NO GOOD	POTENTIAL/TOO SOON	GOOD PROSPECTS	ALREADY GOOD
	DGB	Josh Ward	Jai Newcombe
	Sam Butler	Will Day	Mitch Lewis
	James Blanck!	Ned Reeves	Dylan Moore
	Connor McDonald!	(James Worpel)	Changkuoth Jiath
	Cooper Stephens	(Harry Morrison)	Jack Scrimshaw
	Jacob Kochitzke
	Max Lynch
	Max Ramsden
	Tyler Brockman
	Ned Long
	Finn Maginness!
	Emerson Jeka
	Seamus Mitchell
	Fionn O'Hara
	Josh Morris!

Have given my shot at Hawthorn using the above template. Please note, I have counted those that were 23 and under at the time of our last game. Before anyone complains that this arbitrary choice was to favour Hawthorn - the real reason is that that is when I last looked up everyone's ages when I was last posting about this. Not keen to have to double check birthdays everytime I post so happy for anyone to be eliminated however you wish to apply the criteria.

The other thing I want to mention is that the above categories do not really allow for those that are/will be "decent foot soldiers". Someone like Harry Morrison, for example, I found hard to categorise with the above. He is best 22 and does his job but I'm not sure I would call that "already good', a "good prospect" or "delist". In my view, he is a handy best 22 player who will never be a star. Same applies to a few other names. Similarly, Worpel is super hard to categorise as he has ranged from 'best young player on the list' to 'not in the best 22' at different times. It's not "too soon" to make a call on him but I genuinely have no idea how his career will end up.

I also felt I was pretty conservative with some names - Will Day and Ned Reeves have an argument for being "already good" but due to injury interruptions and fewer games played, I put them in the "good prospects" category. Similarly, the likes of Finn Maginness, Connor McDonald and James Blanck had a good enough season to be called "good prospects" but I have been conservative and stuck with "potential" for now. They can be upgraded if they continue on with their good form in 2023 (Edit: have added an exclamation mark to those who had an impressive 2022 season and were therefore closest to the good prospects category).

I've not suggested anyone should be delisted which may seem biased but we already cut nearly a third of our list this season so really all the 'dead wood' has been let go. If I had to pick the names "least likely to succeed", I would probably suggest Fionn O'Hara (international rookie - very raw) and Seamus Mitchell (not a lot of opportunity so far).

 

[Makeshift Park]

The other thing I want to mention is that the above categories do not really allow for those that are/will be "decent foot soldiers".

Yep. I'd take Taylor, Scott and Young out of my "Already Good" column and put them under "Decent Foot Soldiers" if I could.
I think they could hold their own in a B-grade role for a good team that plays finals.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Have given my shot at Hawthorn using the above template. Please note, I have counted those that were 23 and under at the time of our last game. Before anyone complains that this arbitrary choice was to favour Hawthorn - the real reason is that that is when I last looked up everyone's ages when I was last posting about this. Not keen to have to double check birthdays everytime I post so happy for anyone to be eliminated however you wish to apply the criteria.

If we go by 23 and under from the start of the 2023 calendar year like TheUnicorn suggested, then you'll lose Lewis, Reeves, Morrison, Lynch.

Ideally we'd be going 24 and younger from today, because then I get to add Larkey, Simpkin, Zurhaar, McKay and Logue in our "Already Proven" category.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

If we go by 23 and under from the start of the 2023 calendar year like TheUnicorn suggested, then you'll lose Lewis, Reeves, Morrison, Lynch.

Ideally we'd be going 24 and younger from today, because then I get to add Larkey, Simpkin, Zurhaar, McKay and Logue in our "Already Proven" category.

Fair enough - thanks for the birthday double check. Either way, I think it's pretty arbitrary, particularly as the only football we've seen from the players listed was when they were 23. We are yet to see their form as 24 years olds (which we'll see in 2023). Not that 6 months here or there really makes any difference.

(Certainly some good 24 year olds at North though - who will obviously be there at the same time as all the 23 and under youth being discussed)

 

[TheUnicorn]

This is all a waste of time because "pushing top 22" and "locked in" etc. Would be different for every team and isn't a good representation of which team is better, But it's off season and I'm bored soooooo......

24 & Under.

TOO SOON TO CALL 1pt	SHOWN POTENTIAL 2pt	PUSHING TOP 22 3pt	COULD ARGUABLY DROP 4pt	LOCKED IN, NO TOUCHY! 5pt	GOAT
Tex Wanganeen	Kaine Baldwin	Nik Cox (Will be GOAT once the double moon boots are off in my totally un-biased opinion)	Brandon Zerk-Thatcher (Did really well towards the end of last year but I want to see more, 100% no touchy if he keeps it up.)	Ben Hobbs
Patrick Voss		Zach Reid	Harrison Jones (His first Season was very promising, Found it hard to find his groove in 2022 after missing a big chunk of the start of the season. Probably a lock for top 22 but that's more just due to our lack of forward line, Though if he can find his 2021 form again he's a lock for 22)	Archie Perkins
Jye Menzie		Nick Bryan	Massimo D'Ambrosio (Really impressed me but with only half a season under his belt I find it hard to lock him in)	Nic Martin
Josh Eyre				Jye Caldwell
Cian McBride				Jordan Ridley
				Sam Draper
				Andrew McGrath (PLAY HIM IN DEF FFS!)
				Sam Durham

Total 68pts. (The different tiers are probably terrible and don't represent your entire list, I'm sorry. Feel free to change to better suit)

 

[Makeshift Park]

This is all a waste of time because "pushing top 22" and "locked in" etc. Would be different for every team and isn't a good representation of which team is better, But it's off season and I'm bored soooooo......

24 & Under.

TOO SOON TO CALL 1pt	SHOWN POTENTIAL 2pt	PUSHING TOP 22 3pt	COULD ARGUABLY DROP 4pt	LOCKED IN, NO TOUCHY! 5pt	GOAT
Tex Wanganeen	Kaine Baldwin	Nik Cox (Will be GOAT once the double moon boots are off in my totally un-biased opinion)	Brandon Zerk-Thatcher (Did really well towards the end of last year but I want to see more, 100% no touchy if he keeps it up.)	Ben Hobbs
Patrick Voss		Zach Reid	Harrison Jones (His first Season was very promising, Found it hard to find his groove in 2022 after missing a big chunk of the start of the season. Probably a lock for top 22 but that's more just due to our lack of forward line, Though if he can find his 2021 form again he's a lock for 22)	Archie Perkins
Jye Menzie		Nick Bryan	Massimo D'Ambrosio (Really impressed me but with only half a season under his belt I find it hard to lock him in)	Nic Martin
Josh Eyre				Jye Caldwell
Cian McBride				Jordan Ridley
				Sam Draper
				Andrew McGrath (PLAY HIM IN DEF FFS!)
				Sam Durham

Total 68pts. (The different tiers are probably terrible and don't represent your entire list, I'm sorry. Feel free to change to better suit)


View attachment 1551256

Thing is... we have more yoof than you, so we're going to get more points.

TOO SOON TO CALL 1pt	SHOWN POTENTIAL 2pt	PUSHING TOP 22 3pt	COULD ARGUABLY DROP 4pt	LOCKED IN, NO TOUCHY! 5pt
Comben	Tristan Xerri	Callum Coleman-Jones	Curtis Taylor	Luke Davies-Uniake
Ford		Flynn Perez	Jaidyn Stephenson	Tarryn Thomas
Edwards			Lachie Young	Ben McKay
Bergman			Bailey Scott	Griffin Logue
Goater			Will Phillips	Jy Simpkin
Archer			Tom Powell	Cam Zurhaar
Lazzaro			Paul Curtis	Nick Larkey
Mahoney
Spicer
Bonar
9	2	6	28	35

80 POINTS

 

[Tas]

These threads always have heartache written all over them.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Thing is... we have more yoof than you, so we're going to get more points.

TOO SOON TO CALL 1pt	SHOWN POTENTIAL 2pt	PUSHING TOP 22 3pt	COULD ARGUABLY DROP 4pt	LOCKED IN, NO TOUCHY! 5pt
Comben	Tristan Xerri	Callum Coleman-Jones	Curtis Taylor	Luke Davies-Uniake
Ford		Flynn Perez	Jaidyn Stephenson	Tarryn Thomas
Edwards			Lachie Young	Ben McKay
Bergman			Bailey Scott	Griffin Logue
Goater			Will Phillips	Jy Simpkin
Archer			Tom Powell	Cam Zurhaar
Lazzaro			Paul Curtis	Nick Larkey
Mahoney
Spicer
Bonar
9	2	6	28	35

80 POINTS

Hmm, Maybe we divide the total score by the amount of players and that’s your real score

idk like I said this all just for fun everyone gonna rank the players differently anyways. Also some would/wouldn’t make 22 in other peoples teams depending on needs/depth etc.

 

[Foucault1989]

I refuse to vote in these threads due to obvious bias.

I will say, however, that seeing Hawthorn being easily dismissed is risky business. Our 2021 draft haul of Ward, Macdonald and Butler are going to change people's minds as season 2023 progresses. These 3 (Ward in particular) are criminally overlooked in these discussions.

Take it from a fan of a club that used to post rubbish like this....

3rd year kids cannot compete against fully grown men without senior support. You will have to wait at least 5 - 6 years until the current crop of draftees becone consistent afl players.

Hawthorn are a mile off it. This is rock bottom.

 

[madjoe]

Crows 23 & under...

B: Jones 22, Butts 22, Murray 21
HB: Hamill 21, Worrell 21, Hinge 23
C: Sholl 22, Soligo 19, Taylor 19
HF: Pedlar 19, Fogarty 22, Rankine 22
F: Gollant 20, Thilthorpe 21, Rachele 19
R: Himmelberg 23, Schoenberg 21, Berry 20
I: Parnell 20, Hately 21, Cook 19, McHenry 21
Sub: Murphy 23
E: McAsey 22, Nankervis 18, Borlase 19, Newchurch 19, McPherson 22

All the 23 have played AFL, except Taylor who I expect will debut early next season.

clearly the crows board/coaching team rate the list with trading out of the draft (was the plan) but imo these players are just not long term players imo

jones, mcasey,worrell (body wise has talent) mchenry, hately,schoenberg, gollant, murphy,hinge,pedlar

in saying that i thinkv soligo looks elite, berry looks a 250 gamer,cook the same, rachele hip injury would be a concern long term fingers crossed its nothing,

sum up nicks needs to win games next year or the heat will come not sure that talent makes them rise above a essendon,