World Cup 2022 FIFA World Cup - Group D - (France, Australia, Denmark, Tunisia)

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Geez, Australia Football was riding a wave from 2000's to mid 2010's then it fell into an irrelevant hole again. Why has the sport dropped off in Australia so much since? Aren't kids playing the sport anymore at the grassroots level?

You can blame the team selection or the tactics for the defeat to France, but clearly the quality of player isn't there.

In the early 2000s the Socceroos had many players who were good enough to play in the top European leagues. Kewell, Schwarzer, Cahill, Bresciano, Neill, Emerton, Viduka, Grella, Moore, Tiatto, Aloisi etc. But there's pretty much none now.

What's the difference? Are less kids playing soccer now compared to back then? Are the coaching systems failing?
 
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Atkinson may have had a first poor touch, but truthfully, just about the whole squad has a poor first touch and average ball control, that's part of the reason a team like France is streaks ahead, they are honing and fine tuning these close ball control skills against the very best in the world week in week out. No current Australian player is up to the task.
With all the things the FA has put in train over the last 18 years, the fact is that we are yet to produce any player with the skill level of Kewell, Viduka, Zelic and Okon in their prime during that whole period.
Arzani comes close, but he's watching on the TV like the rest of us.
 
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The thing is we did produce world class players from around 1990 up until around the mid 00s, so what has changed since then?

Main thing to conclude is our talent pathways are stuffed, coaching stuffed and whatever the a-league is doing it doesn’t help us produce class players.

One reason I believe (not the only reason) was the move to Asia when once players had no choice but to go to Europe and ply their trade work hard to get to the top leagues now its easy to just get sucked into the big money leagues of Asia like China and Middle East etc.. Even Japan which is a good standard but not like the top leagues of Europe the move to Asia was good commercially and for our World Cup prospects but it also hindered our player development. The A-League also have drifted away from what its purpose was to begin with by concentrating on more on success rather than development. I still think clubs haven't concentrated enough on youth development given young players enough opportunity in the A-League. A lack of a credible and stable youth league/reserves league also hasn't helped, young players are just left idle in the summer months when the A-League is on.
 

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Stottzy

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z, Australia Football was riding a wave from 2000's to mid 2010's then it fell into an irrelevant hole again. Why has the sport dropped off in Australia so much since? Aren't kids playing the sport anymore at the grassroots level?

There are stacks of kids playing it and interested. I've lived on the Mornington Peninsula, south of Melbourne, Geelong and I've seem more kids playing football in those areas over Auskick. It also helps having a decent video game such as FIFA in this gaming generation. Football Australia don't take any advantage over it and the kids are lost to Aussie rules, Cricket, Basketball etc. Just an observation, but their really doesn't seem to be enough clubs at a suburban/regional level. I now live in a small country town of 800 people. The kids love Football here and play it all the time at school, as do kids in neighbouring country towns. But with no team then just go and play whatever sport is available in the town. The closest club would be over a hour away, which only the die hard parents will commit to. Football Australia really need to invest urgently into grassroots if it wants to prosper again.
 

Sewer de Lance

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The boys actually did an amazing job just to qualify for this tournament, given the current state of the squad. No disrespect to any of the players, but our current ranking of 38th in the world is somewhat flattering.

Having said that, despite our notable deficiencies, we did ourselves no favours at all by persisting with a very negative formation which was stubbornly sitting far too deep & narrow in our defensive half. I’m not sure what Arnold was hoping to achieve with his tactics, but his inability to adapt to the circumstances & make the necessary changes was comical for someone at his level.
 

TommyD13

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That's like saying don't bother trying to make the AFL... Be happy playing for ya local football club...

Or don't bother trying to get the best out of ya self.... Either or.
Not necessarily. Kuol got his big move, so he goes. That’s testing yourself. I don’t see players playing in Asia as testing themselves, and I don’t see someone such as Karacic, or Deng, or Duke testing themselves. These players playing in the A-League also increases quality of the league anyway.
 

foxdog50

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You can blame the team selection or the tactics for the defeat to France, but clearly the quality of player isn't there.

In the early 2000s the Socceroos had many players who were good enough to play in the top European leagues. Kewell, Schwarzer, Cahill, Bresciano, Neill, Emerton, Viduka, Grella, Moore, Tiatto, Aloisi etc. But there's pretty much none now.

What's the difference? Are less kids playing soccer now compared to back then? Are the coaching systems failing?
Look at that list.... we don't have 1 player playing regular game in the top 5 leagues, we're all those players were playing regular in the the top league.. were player like Irvine is playing division 1 in Germany, McGree playing championship in England, yes it's far better than A League, but when you look at that list Kewell, Schwarzer, Cahill, Bresciano, Neill, Emerton, Viduka, Grella, Moore, Tiatto, Aloisi. That list is awesome.
 

lewdogs

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Honestly 4-1 is not that bad a result. At our best world cup we lost the opening game 2-0 to Brazil. The 0-0 draw between Tunisia and Denmark was a perfect result, it means that 4 points almost certainly gets us through. We really need to beat one of Tunisia or Denmark and draw the other game, it's actually not impossible by any means.

As for where our world class players are, I think there's some luck involved in it all. I'm sure we'll produce some more guns soon, Kuol looks really exciting, the kid that is going to play for Italy is a bit of a shame. I've no doubt at some stage we'll have a top quality side again but we do pretty well to consistently qualify for this tournament these days.
 

peetoo

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Our top athletes suited for soccer play AFL. I wonder in an alternate universe how we'd go in world cups had the Fyfe and Dusty types played soccer instead.

I don’t really see it. Maybe kids who could be suited to soccer spend youth playing other sports…don’t necessarily get to the top in AFL and aren’t soccer players. then the intermediate levels are flooded with visiting players

Also outside the elite pathways, kids aren’t as active. While elite statistics for athletics for example are way better than a generation ago, the general school population has considerably slower statistics these days
 

peetoo

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A coach can't stop players making stupid mistakes but he is absolutely responsible for how a team reacts after a mistake.

The reason why a lot of people were so frustrated at how Australia was playing is after going down by a goal is.. nothing happened. They hunkered down, they didn't try to attack and did nothing other than try to keep a 2-1 loss from becoming bigger. And predictably, with no attempt to keep the opposition honest or threaten them the other way, France absolutely battered them.

That is a situation where both what a manager says before the game and what they do when it happens is absolutely crucial. The approach a more attacking manager like Guus Hiddink or dare I say it Ange, would take is firstly to impress on the players pre game that when you're playing an elite team, there are inevitably going to be times where they exploit your mistakes and make you feel foolish, that's fine, what you absolutely must never stop doing is attacking, running to dangerous areas and putting them under pressure to defend the other way. And of you do go behind due to a bad error, the changes you make and what you say to players at half time must send a message that however good the opposition looks you must keep attacking, you must keep trying to pressure them and make them worry about you- not because it's good to watch or something, but because you simply do not have any chance of beating an elite opposition unless you at least try to take it up to them and make them think about how to stop you. With a vast gulf in skill and a goal behind you might only have a 5% or 10% chance of finding a hole or stringing together enough good play to actually beat or equalise against a team like France in that situation, but that is better than a cowering in your back third for the next 70 minutes waiting to find out if they will kick 3 or 5 or 7 goals against you.

The reason Harry Kewell was utterly losing his mind from that point onwards is he's played under managers who instill that sort of winning mindset, and he gets that if you don't at least try to take the game on you might as well just walk off the pitch and concede.

Arnold has the single worst failing a coach or manager can have..he doesn't believe his players are good enough to compete at this level and he doesn't believe they can be.

He epitomises the old school of mediocrity of Australian soccer which is content to bully the minnows in Asia and Oceana but doesn't seriously expect to compete against top tier opposition and is not prepared to take the risks needed to do so or ever get better. And surprise surprise, if you look at every international team he's ever coached, they live up to his expectations exactly.

Reality bites. Let’s face it it’s a fluke we are even there
 

Topkent

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Honestly 4-1 is not that bad a result. At our best world cup we lost the opening game 2-0 to Brazil. The 0-0 draw between Tunisia and Denmark was a perfect result, it means that 4 points almost certainly gets us through. We really need to beat one of Tunisia or Denmark and draw the other game, it's actually not impossible by any means.

As for where our world class players are, I think there's some luck involved in it all. I'm sure we'll produce some more guns soon, Kuol looks really exciting, the kid that is going to play for Italy is a bit of a shame. I've no doubt at some stage we'll have a top quality side again but we do pretty well to consistently qualify for this tournament these days.

We did not lose to Brazil in the opening game. We beat japan 3-1 thanks to Cahill being a ******* star and then took it right up to Brazil but lost before drawing with Croatia no thanks to Kalac.

It's insane how people assume Denmark suck, they'll most likely destroy us
 

Topkent

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This is the worst Australian team since the 60s. Let's not pretend we had the slightest chance of beating France unless they embarrassed themselves.

Our teams are getting worse not better. There's no decent Australian talent at all and the young talent doesn't exist. Kuol is so far unproven as a talent there's a great chance he gets loaned to Denmark and then Scotland and is back in the a league in 4 years. No other half decent country would be pinning their future on a bloke who hasn't even started a pro game.
 

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FourthTimeAround

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Reality bites. Let’s face it it’s a fluke we are even there
Nah, no fluke, its a World Cup made of the best from each federation, not the best 32 teams in the world.
We’ve qualified 5 straight, unsurprisingly better record since we moved into Asia as we simply play more games that mean something.

What is true is that the numbers at youth level are there, but the quality is simply not emerging. I reckon it’s targeted elite development rather than lacking quality and potential. What would I do?

I’d have created youth academies in each major city and establish the 6-7 clubs as per Olympic rules (only 3 over 23yo) with a second club in each major city for more senior squads. Makes a 12 or 14 team national comp.
Drill the youth constantly, challenge them in games every week that matter, create competition amongst youth to get in the shop window. Generate interest in these teams through national drafts maybe and get some media time.

Align them with overseas teams if there is interest, like Man City are now. Or make them Red Bull teams and link with Austria and Germany. Who cares? Link them into the World game at every turn.

The best of the youth (All Australian team?) to go on overseas tours in off season playing friendlies wherever you can find them.

The other thing I’d try and do is look for second - third division teams in overseas leagues (esp Europe big 5) and create sister club relationships for loan spells for Australian youngsters. Create and nurture those links into the world. Make them visible. And desired. Give them a taste in order to cultivate the hunger they’ll need.

Soccer will (unfortunately.?) not challenge larger sports in Australia for elite youth athletes until there is a pathway that excites youngsters to choose not only to play soccer, but to be challenged and driven to constantly improve at every step, along a pathway that leads to a big ticket club if you are good enough AND have the drive to step up into that level. Without having to move into anonymity across the world with little exposure.
We are not a soccer country (we had pockets with the old National League and their ethnic supporter bases which is why I think the Golden Generation happened, it was nurtured in a visible cultural way) so we have to do things differently I think.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
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Open the A league to promotion/relegation, delete the salary cap, have all semi-pro leagues in in Austraila connected to the top, so that if you are a good enough club, you can be promoted. People would be interested in grass roots soccer. It would be fun going to watch your local club thinking one day they could be in the top flight of Australian football!
 

Proffessor

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The USA is big enough the MLS could become a major league in it’s own right and not threaten the existing leagues. Not so Australia.

Plus they don’t have the seething hatred some in sports community in Australia have towards soccer. Remember when Australia was aiming to host this WC and it was suggested the AFL season would have to be suspended for 4 weeks in order for that to happen? The AFL had an apopletic fit, the Herald Sun ran a cover of Ron Barassi squashing a soccer ball saying “over my dead body” to suggestions the AFL wouldn’t be able to use the MCG during the tournament.



This is exactly why Australia will never become a WC or soccer powerhouse. When the establishment sporting culture actively works against the nation hosting the World Cup the culture in that nation will never produce WC success.


This is perhaps a good example of why soccer is struggling in this country. Too many people involved in the game locally seem to hold a view that it should naturally be the number 1 sport in this country just because that is the situation in most other countries, no, Australia is an independent nation, and its citizens are free to choose whatever sport they want.

If you read the article byline you posted, it indicated they wanted AFL football kicked off the MCG for an entire season! Of course, the AFL community was going to resist\refuse such a completely unreasonable request. Their fans wouldn't have stood for it, and nor should they have. The audacity to even pose the question is staggering.

For soccer to prosper further in this country the people involved in the game need to stop trying to lay blame on everyone else for their misfortunes and then take a good hard look at themselves and their current products.

It's a relatively expensive game to play and watch, given the standards on offer, and seems to be pretty poorly run at many levels. The culture at the junior level in some leagues also seems to be a major turn off for a lot of the most athletic young kids who find more engaging and supportive environments playing other sports. Blaming the alternatives for being more attractive isn't a great recipe for success.

If the right people actually start being honest with themselves about the relative state of the game locally, only then will they be able to fix things. It may require a long step by step journey because the problems appear pretty deeply seeded, however it's not impossible.
 
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I have to agree with the Ryan criticism, he escapes scrutiny a bit I feel. Langerak has played more times for Borussia Dortmund than Australia, how he isn't in the squad is ridiculous.

I can't see how we get out of the group but we've got the toughest game out the way and have a game on prime time Saturday night against Tunisia, surely enough to get excited about even if you are a pessimist.
 

Topkent

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Nah, no fluke, its a World Cup made of the best from each federation, not the best 32 teams in the world.
We’ve qualified 5 straight, unsurprisingly better record since we moved into Asia as we simply play more games that mean something.

What is true is that the numbers at youth level are there, but the quality is simply not emerging. I reckon it’s targeted elite development rather than lacking quality and potential. What would I do?

I’d have created youth academies in each major city and establish the 6-7 clubs as per Olympic rules (only 3 over 23yo) with a second club in each major city for more senior squads. Makes a 12 or 14 team national comp.
Drill the youth constantly, challenge them in games every week that matter, create competition amongst youth to get in the shop window. Generate interest in these teams through national drafts maybe and get some media time.

Align them with overseas teams if there is interest, like Man City are now. Or make them Red Bull teams and link with Austria and Germany. Who cares? Link them into the World game at every turn.

The best of the youth (All Australian team?) to go on overseas tours in off season playing friendlies wherever you can find them.

The other thing I’d try and do is look for second - third division teams in overseas leagues (esp Europe big 5) and create sister club relationships for loan spells for Australian youngsters. Create and nurture those links into the world. Make them visible. And desired. Give them a taste in order to cultivate the hunger they’ll need.

Soccer will (unfortunately.?) not challenge larger sports in Australia for elite youth athletes until there is a pathway that excites youngsters to choose not only to play soccer, but to be challenged and driven to constantly improve at every step, along a pathway that leads to a big ticket club if you are good enough AND have the drive to step up into that level. Without having to move into anonymity across the world with little exposure.
We are not a soccer country (we had pockets with the old National League and their ethnic supporter bases which is why I think the Golden Generation happened, it was nurtured in a visible cultural way) so we have to do things differently I think.

Just my 2 cents worth.

These under 23 teams would never work. Clubs would immediately poach anyone half decent and then youd just have 6-7 teams getting smashed every week because they can only play crap 22 year olds
 

revo333

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Geez, Australia Football was riding a wave from 2000's to mid 2010's then it fell into an irrelevant hole again. Why has the sport dropped off in Australia so much since? Aren't kids playing the sport anymore at the grassroots level?

I wonder if we would still be in this position if we hired someone else instead of Pim van Baak.
 
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This is perhaps a good example of why soccer is struggling in this country. Too many people involved in the game locally seem to hold a view that it should naturally be the number 1 sport in this country just because that is the situation in most other countries, no, Australia is an independent nation, and its citizens are free to choose whatever sport they want.

If you read the article byline you posted, it indicated they wanted AFL football kicked off the MCG for an entire season! Of course, the AFL community was going to resist\refuse such a completely unreasonable request. Their fans wouldn't have stood for it, and nor should they have. The audacity to even pose the question is staggering.

For soccer to prosper further in this country the people involved in the game need to stop trying to lay blame on everyone else for their misfortunes and then take a good hard look at themselves and their current products.

It's a relatively expensive game to play and watch, given the standards on offer, and seems to be pretty poorly run at many levels. The culture at the junior level in some leagues also seems to be a major turn off for a lot of the most athletic young kids who find more engaging and supportive environments playing other sports. Blaming the alternatives for being more attractive isn't a great recipe for success.

If the right people actually start being honest with themselves about the relative state of the game locally, only then will they be able to fix things. It may require a long step by step journey because the problems appear pretty deeply seeded, however it's not impossible.
Yet people are paying a premium for rather meh talent at times in AFL. Australia is a spoilt country. Parade and go crazy over stars that hardly get a million a year and is exploited significantly by the AFL corporation. You’d think for all the money AFL gets for TV rights it has a higher wage, standard? Not particularly.

Football is taken for granted here. Australia has multicultural backgrounds yet is often pushed into the wog territory whenever possible.

Guess what? You know Barassi campaigning for MCG? Funny that. It’s a cricket ground by name and by operation. Not MFG, it’s MCG.
Hosted the Olympics in 1956, forced to shorten their season for Sydney 2000, considered Rugby league city. But for a World Cup, the biggest event on earth? Please.
AFL know full well football’s popularity dwarfs theirs, given the obsession to expand in Western Sydney
 

Topkent

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Yet people are paying a premium for rather meh talent at times in AFL. Australia is a spoilt country. Parade and go crazy over stars that hardly get a million a year and is exploited significantly by the AFL corporation. You’d think for all the money AFL gets for TV rights it has a higher wage, standard? Not particularly.

Football is taken for granted here. Australia has multicultural backgrounds yet is often pushed into the wog territory whenever possible.

Guess what? You know Barassi campaigning for MCG? Funny that. It’s a cricket ground by name and by operation. Not MFG, it’s MCG.
Hosted the Olympics in 1956, forced to shorten their season for Sydney 2000, considered Rugby league city. But for a World Cup, the biggest event on earth? Please.
AFL know full well football’s popularity dwarfs theirs, given the obsession to expand in Western Sydney
🤣😂 What

There's sensible posts then there is nonsense like this
 

Blue1980

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One reason I believe (not the only reason) was the move to Asia when once players had no choice but to go to Europe and ply their trade work hard to get to the top leagues now its easy to just get sucked into the big money leagues of Asia like China and Middle East etc.. Even Japan which is a good standard but not like the top leagues of Europe the move to Asia was good commercially and for our World Cup prospects but it also hindered our player development. The A-League also have drifted away from what its purpose was to begin with by concentrating on more on success rather than development. I still think clubs haven't concentrated enough on youth development given young players enough opportunity in the A-League. A lack of a credible and stable youth league/reserves league also hasn't helped, young players are just left idle in the summer months when the A-League is on.
Correct re the a-league, they seem like identical journeyman type sides. Needs to be incensives or requirements to play more U21's and/or play a percentage of home grown Aussie players each game, as part of squad.

Japanese league would be pretty good now I imagine, be probably be at a level of one of the mid tier leagues of Europe, I dare say it would be better than the Scottish league.
 

Blue1980

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I don’t really see it. Maybe kids who could be suited to soccer spend youth playing other sports…don’t necessarily get to the top in AFL and aren’t soccer players. then the intermediate levels are flooded with visiting players

Also outside the elite pathways, kids aren’t as active. While elite statistics for athletics for example are way better than a generation ago, the general school population has considerably slower statistics these days
I think if you just had Victoria on the world stage and as passionate about soccer as we are about Aussie rules, and replaced money/funding etc from AFL to soccer, we'd be a force internationally, probably top 15.

Thing is we did produce world class players from around 1990 till around 2005, so we know it can be done. Soccer wasn't higher in the scheme of things then, if anything was in more of a mess domestically in terms of league structure etc than it is now.

With the a-league we seems to just produce a whole lot of mediocre professional journeyman players.
 

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