Fantasy 2022 - EMPIRE League - Discussion

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Tie breakers first based on div record. Yours vs ours in West. If say you and me and peterbuch and tgbb, or any two of that group, first is div record, then conf record, then h2h, then PR.

Why isn't h2h first? Isn't that the #1 tie breaker in the NFL?

 

[Exe Gesis]

Why isn't h2h first? Isn't that the #1 tie breaker in the NFL?

yeah thats something different between Empire and NFL.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

yeah thats something different between Empire and NFL.

Put it down as another thing to vote on next year, reckon it needs to be changed.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I think my idea originally was to make it a bit more of a robust/fairer method.

Div records even for cross-div teams suggest how well you even went in your own div. Tho if youre in a very tough or very weak div, that can skew things. Conf record is a good method tho, how well you faired among all eight teams in your conf. Then it goes to h2h. Then all-play and PR are all fine.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Eg, lets say its you and me fighting over 2nd wc spot. I mightve got lucky that one game vs you, but across the six div ganes, you faired better, say, in a tough division with say 3-3 record, whereas i went say 2-4 in my weaker division. So tho i mightve lucked out that ONE game, overall across those 6 div games, i was the weaker team. Works in that scenario.

If say you and me are tied on div record too, maybe say you showed yourself better across the entire 10 conf games than i did. Thats like a common games tiebreaker. Tho i lucked out vs you, perhaps that was my only win against your div, coupled with a poor showing in my own weaker division, whereas you ran the table bar me in that weaker division and won a couple games in your own tougher div. So you deserve the wc spot over me despite that one lucky/unlucky h2h game. it works in that scenario.

It may not replicate the NFL, but it has worked well past to present in putting the better teams as div winners and wild card teams.

In a weak division, three teams say 6-8, (is that weak or strong?) means they likely equally split up div games, 3-3. In a strong division, three teams say 10-4, 9-5, 8-6, each of those teams likely have also have 3 or 4 div wins, split games equally. Both divs still have that 3-11 type team at the bottom.

I dunno if div rec is that bad. Conf rec imo def still better ahead of h2h, and all-play/PR at the end helps completely separate any lingering ties is good at the end

 

[Exe Gesis]

Also, those tiebreakers will first decide the standings for each division. So its imperative actually that Div record is used first to sort the West out, which may end up log-jammed at say 7-7 or 8-6. And often when a division is still log-jammed on div rec, that conf rec thus sorts out the final standings in each division.

So if there THEN ends up a team from South and a team from West tied for the last remaining WC. Maybe only then Conf rec then h2h becomes the first criteria for cross-div tie breakers. Conf rec is like common games, a bit more robust/fair than one h2h game.

Been plenty of past instances in empire where div record couldnt resolve cross div ties and had to go to conf or onto h2h. And cases when div rec did resolve it. A team 2-4 vs a team 4-2, the better team still got in.

Id have to look back at past years and assess the stats. Have there ever been any instances of a team ripped off not getting in? Or not? Never been a complaint before, seemed to have worked.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Its all good. Cant change nothing during the season anyway, would have to be in the offseason.

 

[00Stinger]

Put it down as another thing to vote on next year, reckon it needs to be changed.

I agree on changing this

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Also, those tiebreakers will first decide the standings for each division. So its imperative actually that Div record is used first to sort the West out, which may end up log-jammed at say 7-7 or 8-6. And often when a division is still log-jammed on div rec, that conf rec thus sorts out the final standings in each division.

So if there THEN ends up a team from South and a team from West tied for the last remaining WC. Maybe only then Conf rec then h2h becomes the first criteria for cross-div tie breakers. Conf rec is like common games, a bit more robust/fair than one h2h game.

Been plenty of past instances in empire where div record couldnt resolve cross div ties and had to go to conf or onto h2h. And cases when div rec did resolve it. A team 2-4 vs a team 4-2, the better team still got in.

Id have to look back at past years and assess the stats. Have there ever been any instances of a team ripped off not getting in? Or not? Never been a complaint before, seemed to have worked.

I don't think h2h being the first tie
breaker is bad, it actually makes far more sense, if a team has beaten someone in their division in both regular season games they deserve to be ranked ahead of them regardless of the overall division record. Division record being the second tiebreaker to sort out 1-1 all ties on the season makes sense.

This way it helps the deserving teams make the playoffs regardless of how strong or weak a division is. If you win games vs opponents with the same record as you you deserve to be in. Simple.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I don't think h2h being the first tie
breaker is bad, it actually makes far more sense, if a team has beaten someone in their division in both regular season games they deserve to be ranked ahead of them regardless of the overall division record. Division record being the second tiebreaker to sort out 1-1 all ties on the season makes sense.

This way it helps the deserving teams make the playoffs regardless of how strong or weak a division is. If you win games vs opponents with the same record as you you deserve to be in. Simple.

There are situations that benefit one or the other method for sure.

I reckon the best idea is as i said before ...sort all standings within a division by div record first then conf rec then h2h etc. But when it comes to wild cards for cross-div rivals, start with conf rec then h2h etc.

Again, there would only ever be one h2h match between cross-div teams to determine playoffs....that person couldve had multiple byes that week or injuries early in those games etc and not a true representation of the better team. But conf record (common games essentially) paints a broader picture.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I'll present three options for voting anyway next season

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

that person couldve had multiple byes that week or injuries early in those games etc and not a true representation of the better team. But conf record (common games essentially) paints a broader picture.

Yes, but other people might be in a weaker division so they get an advantage that way, getting to play weaker sides twice while others only do it once

 

[Exe Gesis]

Yes, but other people might be in a weaker division so they get an advantage that way, getting to play weaker sides twice while others only do it once

No matter what rules you have in place....draft order standings, wild card tie breakers, etc etc, there is never going to be a perfect system. There are always issues. Even teams in a weak div winning the div with a sub-500 record happen (like this year)

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

H2h is the worst tiebreaker you can have in a comp like this especially for non Div rivals. You could’ve have had a bad bye week whilst the other may have had none. Luck has a lot to do with it.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

H2h is the worst tiebreaker you can have in a comp like this especially for non Div rivals. You could’ve have had a bad bye week whilst the other may have had none. Luck has a lot to do with it.

The NFL use it, I thought that was the point of this comp? to recreate the NFL, youre also determined to keep draft picks in order of luck rather than going to teams who need them more than others.

 

[Exe Gesis]

youre also determined to keep draft picks in order of luck rather than going to teams who need them more than others.

That would also be recreating the NFL

For the record.....the entire comment about recreating the NFL is a bit overblown. It's not about being exactly like it, but just having those levels of complexity in it.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

That would also be recreating the NFL

Its true. Im just saying it coz its the argument those who want to keep the draft pick system the same used.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

The NFL use it, I thought that was the point of this comp? to recreate the NFL, youre also determined to keep draft picks in order of luck rather than going to teams who need them more than others.

Completely different, no team is disadvantaged in the NFL the way you are in fantasy with byes

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

The NFL use it, I thought that was the point of this comp? to recreate the NFL, youre also determined to keep draft picks in order of luck rather than going to teams who need them more than others.

Not sure what you mean with draft. That’s determined over whole season so over several weeks of byes where sometimes you’re lucky sometimes you’re not. With determining playoff spot it can be down to one game.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Not sure what you mean with draft. That’s determined over whole season so over several weeks of byes where sometimes you’re lucky sometimes you’re not. With determining playoff spot it can be down to one game.

Determing a playoff spot can come down to who plays in the softer division. That imo has much more to do with luck than h2h. And luck you can bank on for several years. Its a genuine leg up.

Anyway, ill leave this be and discuss more in the offseason. Dont need to start world war 4 after just starting world war 3.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I'm all for using PR to determine draft order for non playoff teams, reckon it's near perfect, and fairer. Meanwhile, I'm open to slightly tweaking the tie-breakers if theres something better.

Eg...The initial div standings across the entire league are sorted first by div then conf then h2h then allplay then PR -- that occurs within a div across all divs and makes perfect sense to keep as is.

But when it comes to cross div tie breaking for wild cards and playoff seedings and draft order, its only one game played that decides it, so not ideal.

Keeping it as is (div-conf-h2h-allplay-pr) is better than h2h as #1. Because youre being judged across six then ten games first, more of a broader view, less luck and bye week factors across six/ten

 

[Exe Gesis]

Could even remove h2h entirely from the tiebreakers and make it div-conf-allplay-pr

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Determing a playoff spot can come down to who plays in the softer division. That imo has much more to do with luck than h2h. And luck you can bank on for several years. Its a genuine leg up.

Anyway, I’ll leave this be and discuss more in the offseason. Dont need to start world war 4 after just starting world war 3.

I’m all for changing divisions around each year as we do in Alpha.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Its actually a very interesting debate because it ties in with draft order standings debate too.

Can we validate using PR only for draft, but tiebreakers for standings? Is one method for both better? Which method? Keep as is? Demote h2h?

Stop and think about it all as a big picture. Is what is currently being done that on the nose it needs changing?

As for re-ordering divisions....do we do it within a conf only, or across entire league, because it affects your schedule (every year you rotate which non-conf div you play 4 games against). Or, again, keep as is better, nothing on the nose?

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Its an offseason discussion, pointless doing it now, lets just get thru the season first.