Who is the best team in the history of the game to not win a grand final??

[btdg]

Geelong of 89 to 95

This is the right answer for me.

Their midfield was so stacked - Couch, Bairstow, Bews, Hocking - they had tough support all over the ground, and they had Ablett (and Brownless). By '95 they also had young guys coming through...

Ran into buzzsaw, all time great teams in '89, '92, '94 and '95 and were unlucky in that respect.

The year they should have won was 1993. In the most wide open season ever, they had a mid-season slump that culminated in bad losses to 10th and 11th (out of 15) placed Melbourne and St Kilda (the latter by 71 points absolutely wrecked them).

They rallied and won their last 5, beating North (eventually 3rd) by 94, Hawthorn (eventually 4th) by 82, West Coast (eventually 3rd) by 20 and Essendon (eventual premiers) by 32. Managed to end up 7th but equal with both 5th and 6th (missing our on percentage) and only 1.5 games off top spot.

Funny thing is, if they win those two extra matches (Melbourne and St Kilda) they finish top, steamroll Essendon in their first final (missing Hird, Misiti and Fletcher if I remember correctly), and cruise into a GF. That was their year, and they just screwed it up IMO

 

[Johnny Karate]

Dogs circa 08-10 were a good side that probably suffered from being good at a time where Geelong, Collingwood and St Kilda were dominant and Hawthorn had an outstanding 2008.

The backline was solid with Lake, Hargrave and Morris holding down the KPD slots; the smalls in Murphy, Gilbee and Harbrow gave plenty of dash and drive.

The midfield was talented with Cross, M Boyd, Griffen, Cooney and an emerging Shaun Higgins and Callan Ward. Minson and Hudson formed a good ruck duo to feed them.

Up forward they were a little thinner but Brad Johnson was magnificent as an undersized full forward. Mitch Hahn was a solid bullocking forward who inspired his teammates with his physicality. Eagleton and Giansiracusa were good half forwards and they tried to remedy the overall lack of firepower by adding Jason Akermanis, Scott Welsh and Barry Hall from other clubs.

All in all a lot of those players wouldn’t have looked out of place in a Premiership team and it was nice to see M Boyd and Morris eventually salute with a different looking side in 2016.

 

[btdg]

Outside of Judd that midfield was massively overrated. Every other line was terrific but the blues needed an Oliver type extractor to support Judd. Gibbs and Murphy never really had the elite grunt needed to dominate and win a grand final.

I think that is a bit of a hindsight statement, though.

In 2009, that wasn't apparent at all. Both Murphy and Gibbs finished top 10 in the Brownlow at 21 and 20 in 2009. Murphy went on to win the AFLCA award in 2011. I think in a slightly earlier era Judd/Murphy/Gibbs could easily have matched, say, Judd/Cousins/Kerr from a few years earlier in output.

But that was right when midfields got bigger and/or started to rotate more heavily. Bigger bodied extractors proliferated, and Collingwood pioneered the heavy rotation, high burst speed and strength (and absolutely owned us for 2-3 years, well beyond the difference in talent between the teams, as a result). That was an emergent trend that got worse and worse as the years went on and by 2012-14 when that team should have been peaking, it was clear that we didn't have the size or strength to match the top 2-3 teams.

I still think that relative to where that team was in 2009, it is absurd it never broke trhough for even a single top 4 spot (I mean, we aren't talking about 'not having the grunt to win a grand final... that list somehow couldn't even get to a prelim...').

As a starting point, Fev won the Coleman in 2009 at age 28. 12 months later he was out of the league (after his Brownlow antics, it is crazy to remember how fast he fell away).

 

[PT Bar None]

Those Collingwood teams of the late 70's early 80's were pretty easy to watch. Peter Moore in the ruck was sublime. As good with the ball as any midfielder. Felt he was kinda wasted at FF (controversial!). Tough for pies fans though. Made granny 4 out of 5 years and won none of 'em.

Cats late 80's early 90's the same. Went back and watched all those GFs last Summer. Had forgotten how punchy the Cats were in those games.

09, 10's Saints would round out the podium for my era of watching

 

[emuboy]

Years later, I still can't believe that the Adelaide Crows teams of the 2000s did not even get to play in a Grand Final, much less win one.

 

[Sttew]

Those Collingwood teams of the late 70's early 80's were pretty easy to watch. Peter Moore in the ruck was sublime. As good with the ball as any midfielder. Felt he was kinda wasted at FF (controversial!). Tough for pies fans though. Made granny 4 out of 5 years and won none of 'em.

Cats late 80's early 90's the same. Went back and watched all those GFs last Summer. Had forgotten how punchy the Cats were in those games.

09, 10's Saints would round out the podium for my era of watching

Cats fan obviously but as a kid in the early 70’s I was in awe of the Collingwood players - pop star McKenna, the Richardson brothers, Len Thompson, John Greening, Barry Price, et al. I wanted Geelong to be like the Pies!

 

[sherb]

Collingwood 69/70.

Finished top both seasons, combined H&A - Won 33 Lost 9.

Didn't make the GF in 69 and we know what happened in 70.

 

[Shueygod]

If the criteria is NEVER to have won a GF, then I guess it has to be Freo or GWS who have made GFs ahead of Gold Coast and University.

if you are looking at the best teams in a given year who didn’t win the premiership I think Essendon 1999, Geelong 2008 and Richmond 2018 would be contenders.

if you are looking at the best teams who didn’t win a premiership in an era or 4 or 5 years, I would say St Kilda circa 1997 and 2009 would be it. Essendon also went from 1950 to 1962 without winning a premiership but had excelent teams behind the great Melbourne team of the era.

Lol at Richmond 2018, eagles crushed the tigers when they played each other and won the GF missing 3 all Australians.

 

[Back One Out]

Ross Lyon's Saints and Dockers were both good teams that were unlucky not to win a flag, but I wouldn't say either of these teams were better or more talent-stacked than the Giants from 2016-2019

The Giants probably should've won the premiership in 2016. It's been well documented how the Swans were crucified by the umps in the Grand Final. But we forget how the Giants flogged Sydney in the Qualifying Final and then agonisingly lost a PF heartstopper to the Bulldogs thanks to 3 late misses and a 13-23 free kick count. (Did the AFL want an all-Sydney Grand Final that year with a half-empty MCG? Probably not.)



Just have a look at the quality & depth on the Giants 2016 list...


B...... Heath Shaw........ Phil Davis............. Joel Patfull
HB... Zac Williams...... Nick Haynes........ Nathan Wilson
C...... Tom Scully......... Callan Ward...... Lachie Whitfield
HF..... Dylan Shiel...... Jeremy Cameron......... Josh Kelly
F....... Toby Greene..... Jonathon Patton.... Steve Johnson

R...... Shane Mumford... Ryan Griffen... Stephen Coniglio

I....... Rory Lobb... Devon Smith... Jacob Hopper... Jack Steele

Adam Kennedy... Adam Tomlinson... Harry Himmelberg... Will Hoskin-Elliott... Aidan Corr
Dawson Simpson... Rhys Palmer... Jeremy Finlayson... Cam McCarthy... Sam Reid
James Stewart... Tim Mohr... Matthew Kennedy... Caleb Marchbank... Matt Buntine


10 All Australians. 16 of their best 22 were short-listed for the AA40 squad at one time or another.

Of the remaining six, Phil Davis and Zac Williams were good enough to be regarded as All Australian calibre players, but were unlucky with injuries. Ex-number 1 pick Jonathan Patton could've been a contender if it weren't for three ACL injuries. Joel Patfull won a best & fairest for the Lions. Rory Lobb and Nathan Wilson were both handy players, capable of breaking games apart on their day.

GWS also had a number of handy depth players & talented kids filling out their squad, guys who have gone on to have solid careers.



2016... 16 wins, 6 losses, 143%
Won QF GWS 12.19 (91) Syd 7.13 (55)
Lost PF GWS 12.11 (83) W.B. 13.11 (89)


I don't think anyone really appreciates the number of injuries GWS suffered to key players over the next few years, in addition to their best player Greene being suspended at vital times. It cost them a flag, I think. The Giants were still able to carve out a decent 6-5 win-loss record in finals from 2016-2019. That's better than St Kilda from 2008-2011 or Freo 2012-2015


2017... 14 wins, 6 losses, 2 draws, 115%
Lost QF Adel.12.12 (84) GWS 6.12 (48)
Won SF GWS.19.11 (125) WCE 9.4 (58)
Lost PF Rich 15.13 (103) GWS..9.13 (67)

2018... 13 wins, 8 losses, 1 draw, 114%
Won EF GWS 10.19 (79) Syd 4.6 (30)
Lost SF Coll 9.15 (69) GWS. 9.5 (59)

2019... 13 wins, 9 losses, 115%
Won EF GWS 16.17 (113) W.B..8.7 (55)
Won SF Bris.11.14 (80) GWS 12.11 (83)
Won PF Coll 7.10 (52) GWS. 8.8 (56)
Lost GF Rich. 17.12 (114) GWS.3.7 (25)



Their meek surrender in the 2019 Grand Final tarnished their reputation from a legacy standpoint. But the Giants were running on fumes that day and had key players carrying injuries. They had run their race and the Tigers put them to the sword. The reality is they were a much better team than that and they did really well to make it through the big one after winning taxing away finals versus Brisbane and Collingwood.

 

[Freddy Swift]

Cats fan obviously but as a kid in the early 70’s I was in awe of the Collingwood players - pop star McKenna, the Richardson brothers, Len Thompson, John Greening, Barry Price, et al. I wanted Geelong to be like the Pies!

Yep, from the mid 60’s through the 70’s the Pies seemed to be in the finals every year but just couldn’t quite pull off the big one. Bob Rose a very unlucky coach. Greening and Price were great players.

 

[The_Reaper]

I think that is a bit of a hindsight statement, though.

In 2009, that wasn't apparent at all. Both Murphy and Gibbs finished top 10 in the Brownlow at 21 and 20 in 2009. Murphy went on to win the AFLCA award in 2011. I think in a slightly earlier era Judd/Murphy/Gibbs could easily have matched, say, Judd/Cousins/Kerr from a few years earlier in output.

But that was right when midfields got bigger and/or started to rotate more heavily. Bigger bodied extractors proliferated, and Collingwood pioneered the heavy rotation, high burst speed and strength (and absolutely owned us for 2-3 years, well beyond the difference in talent between the teams, as a result). That was an emergent trend that got worse and worse as the years went on and by 2012-14 when that team should have been peaking, it was clear that we didn't have the size or strength to match the top 2-3 teams.

I still think that relative to where that team was in 2009, it is absurd it never broke trhough for even a single top 4 spot (I mean, we aren't talking about 'not having the grunt to win a grand final... that list somehow couldn't even get to a prelim...').

As a starting point, Fev won the Coleman in 2009 at age 28. 12 months later he was out of the league (after his Brownlow antics, it is crazy to remember how fast he fell away).

That is severely underrating both Cousins and Kerr.

Eagles from 2009-2014 with a peak Cousins and Kerr playing would have won a flag.

 

[Johnny Karate]

That is severely underrating both Cousins and Kerr.

Eagles from 2009-2014 with a peak Cousins and Kerr playing would have won a flag.

Cousins, Kerr and Judd were one of the greatest midfield triumvirates in modern AFL history. Judd (still a champion but not at his peak at Carlton) and two promising kids in Murphy and Gibbs circa 09 were nowhere near that level.

Further, the West Coast trio were enhanced by having better depth midfielders like Fletcher, Embley and Braun. Whereas Carlton had Nick Stevens who was just about finished and a host of NQRs.

 

[DEVO]

Three North Melbourne teams that come to mind are;

1950 - A lot of old timers, even neutrals believe the 1950 Kangaroos was one of the great teams, with Spencer, Foote, Kelly, Dynon and co they were more than competitive against the great Essendon team of that year, defeating them once, the only team to do so, and got close on two other occasions. Unfortunately, they were outplayed in the Grand Final.

1994 - Everybody knows we were better than Geelong that year and should have won the Prelim, but a poor day in front of goals and the most lopsided free kick count (32-13 including 5 goals to nil from free kicks) in AFL history got the Cats over the line. And despite losing twice to the Eagles during the season I will always believe that we were capable of winning the GF.

1998 - Should have destroyed Adelaide, but shot ourselves in the foot with a sloppy quarter, kicking 2.12 in the second. Game should have been over at halftime.


And three other teams that spring to mind are;

1948 Essendon - Despite a little slump in rounds 7 and 8 they were almost unbeatable until the Grand Final. Not sure how or why they didn't win because Melbourne wasn't that competitive against them for them most of the season until the Grand Final and the replay.

1991 West Coast - Three games clear on top at the end of the regular season and they get stage fright on the big day.

2008 Geelong - Easily the best team all season, losing only one game all regular season and finishing four games clear, then outplayed in the Grand Final. Hopefully Clarkson's magic can continue for at least another five years.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Lol at Richmond 2018, eagles crushed the tigers when they played each other and won the GF missing 3 all Australians.

Richmond 2018 were by far the best team in the comp. And would have hammered the Eagles at the G on grand final day if they didn’t stuff it up the week before.

Hell Collingwood should have beaten them in the big dance but they also stuffed it up coughing up a 5 goal lead.

Eagles were nothing special in 2018. They just got extremely lucky.

 

[Fadge]

Lol at Richmond 2018, eagles crushed the tigers when they played each other and won the GF missing 3 all Australians.

And got belted in the Prelim.

 

[BigPond101]

Saints under Grant Thomas so attacking and awesome if only they won a premiership we may have never heard of Ross Lyon or is torturous form of football

 

[Fadge]

Meteoric Rise - a lot of love for the Doggies and St. Kilda teams of the late noughties in this thread.

Thoughts?

 

[Shueygod]

Richmond 2018 were by far the best team in the comp. And would have hammered the Eagles at the G on grand final day if they didn’t stuff it up the week before.

Hell Collingwood should have beaten them in the big dance but they also stuffed it up coughing up a 5 goal lead.

Eagles were nothing special in 2018. They just got extremely lucky.

You’re delusional, eagles beat Richmond by 50 points earlier that same season.

Eagles won the same amount of games as Richmond in the end with less losses.

How can you call a gf side missing 3 all Australians lucky? When has that been done before?

 

[Oliver09]

This is the right answer for me.

Their midfield was so stacked - Couch, Bairstow, Bews, Hocking - they had tough support all over the ground, and they had Ablett (and Brownless). By '95 they also had young guys coming through...

Ran into buzzsaw, all time great teams in '89, '92, '94 and '95 and were unlucky in that respect.

The year they should have won was 1993. In the most wide open season ever, they had a mid-season slump that culminated in bad losses to 10th and 11th (out of 15) placed Melbourne and St Kilda (the latter by 71 points absolutely wrecked them).

They rallied and won their last 5, beating North (eventually 3rd) by 94, Hawthorn (eventually 4th) by 82, West Coast (eventually 3rd) by 20 and Essendon (eventual premiers) by 32. Managed to end up 7th but equal with both 5th and 6th (missing our on percentage) and only 1.5 games off top spot.

Funny thing is, if they win those two extra matches (Melbourne and St Kilda) they finish top, steamroll Essendon in their first final (missing Hird, Misiti and Fletcher if I remember correctly), and cruise into a GF. That was their year, and they just screwed it up IMO

Essendon had Geelongs measure in 93. The only reason they were 'unlucky' to miss the finals was because they got very lucky when we played them in r.21. Hird, Misiti and Fletcher that you mentioned missing the first final all got injured during the game against Geelong along with Wallis and Thompson. All 5 of those players missed the first final after having a bye in r.22. At Geelong that day we were 3 goals up before the injuries took their toll. Essendon don't cop those injuries it's a fair chance we win that game and no one would consider Geelong unlucky in 93.

 

[SplintWhisky]

Dogs 08 - 10
St Kilda 09 - 11
GWS 16 - 19

Out of those it is hard to go past GWS (may be recency bias). Their midfield and attack looked like what footy should be when it worked.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Meteoric Rise - a lot of love for the Doggies and St. Kilda teams of the late noughties in this thread.

Thoughts?

Not much regard for them here allowing a 2nd Division and fringe Div 1 finals team to win flags. . Port 2014 and GWS 2016 the best teams I have seen miss flags this century, and Cats 08 and Hawks 12 of course, but they won flags around their GF losses.

But you already knew my views. So why ask?

 

[Fadge]

Not much regard for them here allowing a 2nd Division and fringe Div 1 finals team to win flags. . Port 2014 and GWS 2016 the best teams I have seen miss flags this century, and Cats 08 and Hawks 12 of course, but they won flags around their GF losses.

But you already knew my views. So why ask?

Just further reinforcement that your views are in the minority.

But we both already knew that too.

 

[EB&W Pieman]

Hey back off everyone.
You’ve all had a lot of fun at our xpense over the decades making fun of our record in Grand Finals.
So how about you all rack off, and let us decide among ourselves which of our 28 losing Grand Finals was our most noble.
Fair’s fair.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Just further reinforcement that your views are in the minority.

But we both already knew that too.

Lol. If my view was seen by you as being in the majority, I would be developing a new view. I don’t get my views off Purple, Anthony Hudson and Mince Whately like you Fadge.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

You’re delusional, eagles beat Richmond by 50 points earlier that same season.

Eagles won the same amount of games as Richmond in the end with less losses.

How can you call a gf side missing 3 all Australians lucky? When has that been done before?

Wow you beat them in Perth.
No chance you would have beaten them at the G. Everyone knows Richmond were the best team in 2018.

You barely got over Collingwood.
The 2018 eagles are one of the weaker flag teams. Much like Adelaide in 97.