Training 2023 Pre-season thread

[briztoon]

I will take that as a Dev.

As you can't have both unless you drop one of the players in bolded (page 55).

Total now Dev 11 with Lyons still on 3

Dev 12 ~ Lyons 3.

I fully expect Fagan to give Lyons every opportunity, but I’ve been barracking for Dev since we drafted him.

 

[Section 5]

On the odd occasion I wasn't blocked by the boundary umpire last Friday evening, I managed to take a few photers.

Excellent images as usual Mr. Ripper.

Harris Andrews has grown into a big unit.
Listed as 98kg but i think he would be close to Payne's 101kg now.

 

[Tom14]

Is the choice even Dev/Lyons at this stage? I can’t see the inside mid minutes for either behind Neale, Dunkley, clug, Ashcroft and even Bez. Bailey and Rayner will get their own time on ball too.

Dev on a wing is less appealing to me than him doing a job inside. He wasn’t the only one on the night but got killed by the cats when playing wing in the prelim. And he doesn’t have the offensive weapons to hurt teams on the outside.

If we are going to play a super defensive winger I think Dev has a shot at a spot but he’d need to develop some things that currently aren’t strengths. This is not a Lyons endorsement as he’s definitely unable to play outside.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Decent VFL starting midfield group in Fort, Lyons, Matho and Dev with Fletcher and Ah Chee on the wings

 

[Section 5]

Is the choice even Dev/Lyons at this stage? I can’t see the inside mid minutes for either behind Neale, Dunkley, clug, Ashcroft and even Bez. Bailey and Rayner will get their own time on ball too.

Dev on a wing is less appealing to me than him doing a job inside. He wasn’t the only one on the night but got killed by the cats when playing wing in the prelim. And he doesn’t have the offensive weapons to hurt teams on the outside.

If we are going to play a super defensive winger I think Dev has a shot at a spot but he’d need to develop some things that currently aren’t strengths. This is not a Lyons endorsement as he’s definitely unable to play outside.

The question i asked is on page 55.
It is about who makes the midfield group assuming the bolded players are selected in the full team i named.
It is my opinion that the bolded players are automatic selections baring injuries of course.
So, who fills the last midfield spot. I just put that spot on the wing to stand out. It is more like a wing/midfield rotation.
Also, i am not concerned about who is named on the starting interchange bench, just who makes the final midfield group.

So far, everyone has chosen either Dev (12) or Jarrod (3) for the last midfield spot.

You could drop one of the bolded players and choose two players if you wish. Nobody has gone that way yet.
In that case just name the bolded player you want to drop, and then name two midfield players.

 

[Clarkythelion]

From memory their worry with playing Berry inside too much is doing more damage to his bung shoulder. I think they did it in the Melbourne game as a “break glass in case of emergency” thing, but given he’s just had another surgery in the off season I don’t think we’ll see much of him inside this year

I reckon you're right with Berry, he did a great job of Fyfe a couple of years back in Perth then shit Cripps out of a game. if they only use him as a 'break the glass' then his tactics wont come under as much scrutiny in opposition game planning. He has a great tank, let him run free until we need a specific shut down, maybe once or twice a season.

 

[LongLion]

So far, it's 5 for Dev and 0 for others.
I believe a fit and firing Lyons gets selected over Dev. So, Lyons for me.

That's now 5 for Dev & 1 Lyons.

Just watched some games from early last year and Lyons was killing it. I think a few have forgotten how good he is fully fit. Lyons for me but by a whisker.

 

[Berrygood]

Dev 6 Lyons 3

I think Dev over Lyons, Tunstill over Lyons as well. We looked much quicker and so much better defensively with Dev in the team at the end of last year. Lyons will have to come back much fitter with much more run in his game to break back in. At this stage of the clubs evolution Dev is a much better long term prospect than Lyons. Dev and Tunstill should be given as much opportunity as they can get, both are good for 5+ more years. Lyons unfortunately 1 or 2 only. Fages has been big on getting youth into the team as much as possible. I hope this continues.

 

[Quigley]

Quite frankly it would not be a surprise if neither was in the team if an actual outside mid stepped up.

Lyons is an inside mid who cannot play anywhere else. From what we have seen it also looks very likely that if Robertson is going to succeed it is going to be as an onballer and not as a outside player. On the outside he has looked very average and the times he has looked like he might become something it has been in the limited times he has had the chance to go inside. Robertson and Tunstill are both much in the same in this regard and Berry has been in that category for years. Berry's best games have virtually always been when he has gotten to play onball.

The problem is that we have a heap of guys looking for time on ball and not enough stepping up to play at a high level outside. Guys that I play ahead of Robertson for inside time would be - Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft, Berry, McCluggage, Bailey, Zorko and Rayner. That is a lot of guys fighting for minutes in his preferred position and results in him fighting for a game in a position which is not his strength ie the wing. On the wing he is in a tier of guys who have not yet established themselves.

Personally I would start McCluggage and Bailey on the wing (with a rocket up both of them that they have to actually run defensively and not cheat as stupidly aggressively as they have done the last couple of years) with Berry inside and a bit of rotation between those three. After that there is scope for one or two outside types on the wing / flank. I see those being:

Wilmott and McKenna - one of these guys will get a shot I think from week 1. They are primarily HBFers but from reports have been running on the wing some in the practice matches. I think both offer value there. Answerth was a massive favourite of the coaching staff last year (which I admit I did not agree with for basically the whole second half of the year), and if he starts week 1 I think one of these guys rounds out the bench ahead of Robertson and Lyons.

Ah Chee - veteran utility who plays more as a defensive wing and is solid in that role. Does not find enough of it though.

Prior - another guy who has been solid and got a decent run of games last year. He has continued to improve every year and there is no reason to think that will not continue. He is in the competition if that happens although he does not look to have a particularly high ceiling.

Sharp - he has an elite weapon which I am sure the coaching staff would like to make use of. The rest of his game is solid enough to get him games I just think he needs to show that he can find the ball and put himself in good position to receive it. If he does that there is no reason to think he would not be given the chance.

Lohmann - this is the big upside guy in the group. Good pace and skills and a player with real X factor. Probably more of a HFF early but I like him as a wing prospect. The injuries recently I think put him behind the rest coming into the year.

Fletcher - a first round pick who is very likely to start his career on the outside. Through the middle of the ground his game style reminds me quite a lot of Bailey in the way he moves through traffic. He has very nice skills and has hurt factor when he has time. I don't think he has a natural feel for the wing role but he is very disciplined about getting to where he is supposed to be and with time I can see him being more natural in the role. I wouldn't mind betting they have him pegged as a solution to the outside issue in the longer term (maybe not this year).

Robertson and Tunstill - as mentioned above I think both are inside players who are hard workers and are playing outside in order to crack into the side. Both have below average skill for the position and are not natural to the position nor do they accumulate much ball in those roles. Both are footballers though, solid to good defensively and will give it everything and as a consequence are right in the mix for a spot in the team. I like both but much more on the inside than out.

 

[Section 5]

Total now Dev 13 Lyons 4. Quigley not included as i see that as a comment. Unless you want to name someone.

 

[Berrygood]

Quite frankly it would not be a surprise if neither was in the team if an actual outside mid stepped up.

Lyons is an inside mid who cannot play anywhere else. From what we have seen it also looks very likely that if Robertson is going to succeed it is going to be as an onballer and not as a outside player. On the outside he has looked very average and the times he has looked like he might become something it has been in the limited times he has had the chance to go inside. Robertson and Tunstill are both much in the same in this regard and Berry has been in that category for years. Berry's best games have virtually always been when he has gotten to play onball.

The problem is that we have a heap of guys looking for time on ball and not enough stepping up to play at a high level outside. Guys that I play ahead of Robertson for inside time would be - Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft, Berry, McCluggage, Bailey, Zorko and Rayner. That is a lot of guys fighting for minutes in his preferred position and results in him fighting for a game in a position which is not his strength ie the wing. On the wing he is in a tier of guys who have not yet established themselves.

Personally I would start McCluggage and Bailey on the wing (with a rocket up both of them that they have to actually run defensively and not cheat as stupidly aggressively as they have done the last couple of years) with Berry inside and a bit of rotation between those three. After that there is scope for one or two outside types on the wing / flank. I see those being:

Wilmott and McKenna - one of these guys will get a shot I think from week 1. They are primarily HBFers but from reports have been running on the wing some in the practice matches. I think both offer value there. Answerth was a massive favourite of the coaching staff last year (which I admit I did not agree with for basically the whole second half of the year), and if he starts week 1 I think one of these guys rounds out the bench ahead of Robertson and Lyons.

Ah Chee - veteran utility who plays more as a defensive wing and is solid in that role. Does not find enough of it though.

Prior - another guy who has been solid and got a decent run of games last year. He has continued to improve every year and there is no reason to think that will not continue. He is in the competition if that happens although he does not look to have a particularly high ceiling.

Sharp - he has an elite weapon which I am sure the coaching staff would like to make use of. The rest of his game is solid enough to get him games I just think he needs to show that he can find the ball and put himself in good position to receive it. If he does that there is no reason to think he would not be given the chance.

Lohmann - this is the big upside guy in the group. Good pace and skills and a player with real X factor. Probably more of a HFF early but I like him as a wing prospect. The injuries recently I think put him behind the rest coming into the year.

Fletcher - a first round pick who is very likely to start his career on the outside. Through the middle of the ground his game style reminds me quite a lot of Bailey in the way he moves through traffic. He has very nice skills and has hurt factor when he has time. I don't think he has a natural feel for the wing role but he is very disciplined about getting to where he is supposed to be and with time I can see him being more natural in the role. I wouldn't mind betting they have him pegged as a solution to the outside issue in the longer term (maybe not this year).

Robertson and Tunstill - as mentioned above I think both are inside players who are hard workers and are playing outside in order to crack into the side. Both have below average skill for the position and are not natural to the position nor do they accumulate much ball in those roles. Both are footballers though, solid to good defensively and will give it everything and as a consequence are right in the mix for a spot in the team. I like both but much more on the inside than out.

Re Prior, I think he has a higher ceiling than thought. Should there be a long term injury to Starcevich, I think he can step in there seamlessly. I also think he can be effective on the wing, as effective as Mitch Robbo was that's for sure.

I also love seeing Prior and Dev playing together. They spur each other on. Both go to another level. Both have a bit of mongrel in them. Maybe it's a W.A. thing, Tunstill has it in him too. Mongrel and determination are qualities I really like.

 

[Quigley]

Re Prior, I think he has a higher ceiling than thought. Should there be a long term injury to Starcevich, I think he can step in there seamlessly. I also think he can be effective on the wing, as effective as Mitch Robbo was that's for sure.

I also love seeing Prior and Dev playing together. They spur each other on. Both go to another level. Both have a bit of mongrel in them. Maybe it's a W.A. thing, Tunstill has it in him too. Mongrel and determination are qualities I really like.

I have always seen Madden as the Starc replacement reserve. Admittedly Prior did come in as a projected back.

 

[mattsmob]

Tunstill for me to play purely outside on the wing. More inside time for Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage, Ashcroft, Bailey, Rayner and Zorko.

I think all of Neale, Dunkley and Hugh are capable of mid to high 80% time on ground which takes up a big chunk of the mid minutes. Bailey and Rayner are two guys that look primed to take more minutes and responsibility in there and if Zorko can get back to anywhere near what he was then he’ll be a good point of difference in there as well. Ashcroft sounds like he’ll be a gun in there from game one too.

 

[Section 5]

Tunstill for me to play purely outside on the wing. More inside time for Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage, Ashcroft, Bailey, Rayner and Zorko.

I think all of Neale, Dunkley and Hugh are capable of mid to high 80% time on ground which takes up a big chunk of the mid minutes. Bailey and Rayner are two guys that look primed to take more minutes and responsibility in there and if Zorko can get back to anywhere near what he was then he’ll be a good point of difference in there as well. Ashcroft sounds like he’ll be a gun in there from game one too.

That gives 1 vote to Tunstill.

A reminder, a vote to Ah Chee/Tunstill/Prior/Wilmot/Sharp or even Answerth means both Dev and Lions miss out.

Total Dev 13, Lyons 4, Tunstill 1

 

[martinson]

I think we're experimenting with how we're going to use Rayner and where given our midfield stocks and doubts as to whether he'll ever have the tank and the defensive skills to be a consistent M/F player.

 

[globalfooty]

That gives 1 vote to Tunstill.

A reminder, a vote to Ah Chee/Tunstill/Prior/Wilmot/Sharp or even Answerth means both Dev and Lions miss out.

Total Dev 13, Lyons 4, Tunstill 1

I hope these results will be hand delivered to Fages and the match committee

 

[Section 5]

I think we're experimenting with how we're going to use Rayner and where given our midfield stocks and doubts as to whether he'll ever have the tank and the defensive skills to be a consistent M/F player.

Cam will play all 2023 as a 23-year-old and should notch up his 100 games by round 13/15.
Not too bad for someone who has missed 12 months with an ACL.
As the number 1 draft pick we may have expected a bit more.
Cam has been good and now moving into what is usually an AFL players prime years.
At present he will be that F/M type that kicks 20 plus goals a season.

I also doubt he becomes more midfield than forward. Could go into the middle for some clearances then drop forward.
Fagan indicated before his ACL injury that Rayner would be playing in the midfield that year.
Now into his 6th season, so there should be some fitness improvement.
However, our midfield has improved a lot since the Fagan comment.

 

[Miller1971]

you have lots of inside guys, its seems crazy to use McCluggage inside when he is one of the few that is so accomplished on the outside.

Sure, he is good on the inside, but none of the other guys that are strong inside can match him on the outside. Have to balance the weapons you have.

 

[KissKiss]

Dev over Lyons for me at this stage too. Lyons needs to come back pretty fit and really improve his defensive work to come back for me.

I also think the move of McCluggage inside is still one of the biggest problems. Hes more than good enough to play there but still feel it throws off the balance (especially when Zorko was playing mid still). McCluggage just meant too many small and forward running players. His best to me has been wing/hff style play and feel the team would be better if he went back to that role

 

[M Malice]

Yes you want the ball in the hands of McCluggage, Coleman and Rich in space/outside, they will hit up someone. Hopefully Ashcroft's delivery into F50 is on a similar level, you can not have too many good users of the footy.

 

[Nathan Barley]

you have lots of inside guys, its seems crazy to use McCluggage inside when he is one of the few that is so accomplished on the outside.

Sure, he is good on the inside, but none of the other guys that are strong inside can match him on the outside. Have to balance the weapons you have.

He'll be playing on the ball but won't be inside. The plans will be to distribute the ball to him.

Means he gets more of the footy than playing wing.

 

[mattsmob]

He'll be playing on the ball but won't be inside. The plans will be to distribute the ball to him.

Means he gets more of the footy than playing wing.

Exactly this, imo he’s the perfect third wheel for Neale and Dunkley.

 

[rye]

with one of wilmot and mckenna likely in the b22 i hope we are looking to find a way to get one of rich / coleman up the ground more. kicks from either of those two when we have threats like gunston and cameron leading to them will cut most teams apart. i thought rich in particular's best work last year was when he managed to get to the centre of the ground and kick to our forwards advantage

 

[Dalions]

Exactly this, imo he’s the perfect third wheel for Neale and Dunkley.

Coming from the Bulldogs system, Dunkley is more of a handball type of mid which is something that we have been lacking a little in my mind.
So with Neale and Clugga running off the hip of Dunkley is a perfect midfield group in my mind with Ashcroft, Dev and Bez as the first up chop outs and Rayner , Bailey and Zorko to also run through there at times.
Seems like a pretty well balanced midfield mix to me.

 

[LongLion]

Yes you want the ball in the hands of McCluggage, Coleman and Rich in space/outside, they will hit up someone. Hopefully Ashcroft's delivery into F50 is on a similar level, you can not have too many good users of the footy.

Was at the intra at Wiston Grange 2 weeks back and there were a couple of 50+ metre pin point passes from Andrews into the forward line.