Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Shane Heard]

You missed my point.

My point was that without Fitzroy, the AFL put Port Adelaide into the league.

Therefore 70% of Adelaide has to suffer.

Who gives a rats bottom hole about the Crows

It’s an absolute joke that organisation
was given the green light to go ahead in the first place


You’re more irrelevant to the league than that other made team port

And that’s saying something..

 

[Roylion]

Brisbane Lions call it a merger, AFL call it a merger, the vast majority of AFL supporters call it a merger, hell.

Of course they do. it's in their interests to do so. Or they've been convinced by the AFL's marketing.

It doesn't change the fact that the Brisbane Lions (established 1987) and the Fitzroy Football Club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) are different clubs that are both still in existance as separate entities. Both once held an AFL licence for a period of ten years concurrently. Now only one does.

Even a lot of Fitzroy and Brisbane supporters do too.

Of course they do. It may in their interests to do so and/or they've been convinced by the AFL's marketing.

irrelevant to all but a very insignificant few.

That may be, but its relevant to me.

It's a shame we won't be here to bicker over the minor details of the merger document forever.

Why do you care? It's not even the club you support, much less one you have any involvement in.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Random comment but I never got the proposed "North Fitzroy Kangaroos" name. It seemed a bit naff. Fitzroy and North Mlbourne were merging. North Fitzroy (or Fitzroy North) is a different suburb. Never understood why they wanted to call it that.

Fitzroy Kangaroos... North Melbourne Lions... Fitzroy-North Melbourne or vice versa... but North Fitzroy? Weird.

We'll Brunswick St Oval is actually in North Fitzroy isn't it? So could argue it's the Lions spiritual home

 

[terrybull]

So you're suggesting that the Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy Football Clubs are the one club?

despite the

• ASIC records that prove they are both seperate operating current entities with different corporate structures
• the 1996 Deed of Arrangement stating that the "merged club" is in fact the Brisbane Bears
• the court case of 2010 Brisbane Lions vs. Fitzroy FC confirming they are separate clubs
• the Brisbane Lions themselves arguing the clubs were separate in that the Fitzroy Football Club was a club with a "shrinking if not vanishing supporter base that sought to meddle in the business of a current AFL club". (Brisbane Lions' barrister, Rodney Garratt QC, March 2nd 2010) and then went on to "wish the Fitzroy Football Club all the best in the VAFA." at the conclusion of the mediation talks.
• No Fitzroy director from 1996 supports the notion that there was an actual merger.
• The AFL doesn't even include Fitzroy's VFL-AFL records as part of their Brisbane Lions official AFL records. Yet the Brisbane Bears records are included as part of the Brisbane Lions records and the AFL regards the club as having started in 1987.

If you're happy to go along with what AFL marketing wants you to believe, then good luck to you. The Brisbane Lions of course, as an AFL entity and also to continue to foster a Melbourne supporter base, market it as a merger as well.

Where can one find AFL’s official stats?

Very hard to find

Unless it’s this one

AFL Tables

AFL Tables - Australian Rules Stats & Tables

afltables.com

 

[Demonic Ascent]

All the Commission can do is encourage. Any club not owned by the AFL cannot be forced to merge or relocate against their will.

They can do more than encourage if they really want to though. They can make life impossible for a team they want to move until they have no option but to do so. I think they've moved beyond that though.

 

[emuboy]

It's hard to believe that this year the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy's last season of 1996 is closer in time to 1969 than to the present date.

 

[Freomaniac]

Culturally the sport is worse off but the product and business operated as the AFL has dealt with it and moved on as a sporting/entertainment industry first and sport second.
Culturally we have lost a lot to expand the league from 12 teams to 18 and soon 19. The leagues that were the next best around the nation have been basically absorbed into it to simply be feeder leagues only now to the product that is the AFL but they used to have good followings too.
SANFL, WAFL and VFA were culturally strong footy leagues that had good followings next to the premier league of the VFL that has become the AFL. That price to pay culturally has been too high imo. We've added corporate franchise clubs like Eagles, Crows and the rest but lost having the strong tie to football clubs that had a rich history built up through communities such as Fitzroy, Norwood, Sturt, Glenelg, East Fremantle, Port Melbourne, Preston, West Perth, Coburg, Subiaco, Prahran, West Adelaide etc. which if you in your 30's or 20's or teenage years means nothing to you as you probably only known footy through the AFL but those of us that grew up with the sport have a strong following in the traditional footy states have seen everything that made the sport exciting from grassroots to the elite level has been cannablised and taken away too much we wonder if the long term cost will come back to bite hard later in the future. The overall level of joy and fun of following from the strong state leagues, reserves teams and VFA to premier league that grew up with is actually not there to enjoy anymore in the same way I fell in love with the sport. If your club you followed in the league was Fitzroy it obviously would be felt even stronger loss.

I think the AFL will go on but I fear the best times of the sport itself have probably been experienced already and we have a lesser version of the sport now as a result. But it run more like a sporting/entertainment business so that will continue on and still be enjoyed by generations to come.
They can't miss what they never known so it won't matter in the end.
The world is in a constant state of flux.
Change is constant. Not always for the better but change is a reality each and everyday.

A very good post.

Fitzroy being killed off in 1996 is a small sample where money was and always is for the AFL.

I just watched some bits of the NRL game between Penrith Panthers vs Brisbane Broncos tonight.

I also noticed this. Penrith played at their home ground, their actual local area not in Sydney football stadium in the Sydney CBD or Homebush in Western NSW.

They actually played in their actual local area.

That's another thing that's missing in the AFL, certain teams playing in their actual local suburban ground like princes park or Victoria Park or Moorabbin oval or windy Hill.

Only Geelong out of all Victorian sides play in their hometown or home suburb.

 

[Shane Heard]

Also …people forget how down and out and absolutely shot the Sth Melbourne Swans FC were in the early 80s..financially.

They were vastly more downtrodden than FFC , Footscray,North or Saints.

They were doomed.

But it’s interesting to view the attendance records of 1980 vs 1985 ( 85’ is when things really went down hill for the lower clubs)

The numbers tell a story about who had the worst grounds for punters to attend.

And St Kilda copped it the worse imo.

Moorabbin was a absolute hellhole of a venue and no wonder no one turned up. The Lake oval just as bad . Arden st ground for North in the same boat and worse than all of them.

Interesting that Windy Hill was no pleasure ground with A grade facilities. But the fans turn up and opposition fans came along too.

But we were behind Pies at Victoria Park by a massive 110,000 less in 85’ and 130,000 less than CFC at Princes Park. Ground capacity probably had a lot to do with it.

Also …on reflection…HFC we’re sharing Princes Park with Carlton by then.

South were gone by 85’ to the SCG


Interesting stats to ponder..


1980 H & A attendance…

 

[Shane Heard]

1985 VFL attendance H&A

 

[Demonic Ascent]

A very good post.

Fitzroy being killed off in 1996 is a small sample where money was and always is for the AFL.

I just watched some bits of the NRL game between Penrith Panthers vs Brisbane Broncos tonight.

I also noticed this. Penrith played at their home ground, their actual local area not in Sydney football stadium in the Sydney CBD or Homebush in Western NSW.

They actually played in their actual local area.

That's another thing that's missing in the AFL, certain teams playing in their actual local suburban ground like princes park or Victoria Park or Moorabbin oval or windy Hill.

Only Geelong out of all Victorian sides play in their hometown or home suburb.

100%, ground rationalisation led to the homogenisation of the AFL. Even if they kept say 4 grounds with Footscray playing at Western Oval, North/Carlton at Princes Park, Melb/Coll/Rich/Ess at MCG and Saints/Hawks at Waverley/Moorabbin would've been a far greater experience than what we have now.

 

[Kwality]

So in that case it's largely pointless talking about what the Commission should've / could've done.

Identifying the false moves along the way is not pointless, as changes are constant.
At some point the Commission will critically examine where the Administration is taking our game.

 

[Kwality]

You missed my point.

My point was that without Fitzroy, the AFL put Port Adelaide into the league.

Therefore 70% of Adelaide has to suffer.

I've never supported individual WAFL clubs in the national comp.
Port suffers from similar limitations (membership/dollars) to some Melbourne clubs.

 

[Kwality]

The WAFL and SANFL are.

The VFL is still going fine.

Which version of the VFL is that ?

 

[Coolangatta]

Which version of the VFL is that ?

The AFL.

 

[Papa G]

As the Victorian State Government effectively funds the league, we will never see another cull.

 

[Coolangatta]

As the Victorian State Government effectively funds the league, we will never see another cull.

I don't think we will either.

I just hope the AFL isn't like Reddit and decides to stop expansion just because there's 10 teams in Victoria and "we can't have too many teams."

Too many teams in a single-tier competition is bad, so change the system then, when necessary, don't deny financially viable and new/strong markets a new team just because... what exactly?

Talent pool? Don't add too many teams too soon then (they aren't). Any other reason? Cause we must have a single-tier competition. Says who? Purists? Traditionalists?

 

[Kwality]

I don't think we will either.

I just hope the AFL isn't like Reddit and decides to stop expansion just because there's 10 teams in Victoria and "we can't have too many teams."

Too many teams in a single-tier competition is bad, so change the system then, when necessary, don't deny financially viable and new/strong markets a new team just because... what exactly?

Talent pool? Don't add too many teams too soon then (they aren't). Any other reason? Cause we must have a single-tier competition. Says who? Purists? Traditionalists?

It's geographic too.

 

[Coolangatta]

It's geographic too.

For not changing from a single-tier system? Wouldn't geography strengthen the argument? Maybe the Eagles and Dockers wouldn't have to make so many long distance trips a year, when the likes of Tasmania and New Zealand are much closer to Victoria for travel.

 

[Toump Ass]

Why do you care?

As per agreement, Fitzroy ceased operations and transferred their assets to the Brisbane Bears, and thus the merger was completed. It is very nice that coterie groups and shareholders kept selling merchandise from the back of truck and ensured the new Lions board retained the Fitzroy Lion logo when it was decided this logo was outdated (a strange occurrence, if the Brisbane Lions were indeed a different club to the original Fitzroy Lions?). It's a heart-warming footnote that a new Fitzroy Lions are now playing pub footy league, too.

But it's also very important to acknowledge the truth. I find it incredibly disrespectful to those who lost their football club to pretend that the Fitzroy Lions were simply relegated to a lower league, when the facts are they were merged out of existence. It's also very disrespectful to the Lions supporters who see the Brisbane Lions- correctly- as the continuation of this club. You can carry on with your fantasy all you like, but remember, always, it's just that. Bit of fairy tale is all.

 

[yodellinhank]

100%, ground rationalisation led to the homogenisation of the AFL. Even if they kept say 4 grounds with Footscray playing at Western Oval, North/Carlton at Princes Park, Melb/Coll/Rich/Ess at MCG and Saints/Hawks at Waverley/Moorabbin would've been a far greater experience than what we have now.

Ideally you'd have Waverley out East, Kardinia for the West and MCG in the middle I reckon.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I don't think we will either.

I just hope the AFL isn't like Reddit and decides to stop expansion just because there's 10 teams in Victoria and "we can't have too many teams."

Too many teams in a single-tier competition is bad, so change the system then, when necessary, don't deny financially viable and new/strong markets a new team just because... what exactly?

Talent pool? Don't add too many teams too soon then (they aren't). Any other reason? Cause we must have a single-tier competition. Says who? Purists? Traditionalists?

I agree, why do we have to have a single top league? Why not conference it?

Vic teams in their own conference, and every other club in another conference.

Sounds good to me!

 

[steviewonder36]

Melbourne were kind of facing a Fitzroy like scenario in 2013, but then the AFL launched a rescue package. A new president and CEO was appointed, and the AFL even parachuted Paul Roos in as coach as well.

Contrast the treatment afforded to the Demons to that of the Lions. They were pretty much told by the AFL to merge or die. Fitzroy could have been saved if the will and appetite was there imo.

Sadly, Fitzroy didn't have a very large supporter base. They hadn't had success since 1944, with those supporters dying off, new ones didn't really come along. I know the new clubs like Giants and Suns are still building supporter base, but Fitzroy was trying to keep up with the other Melbournian based clubs. I think they were lowest supported by the final season.

One side of my family history supported the Royboys going back over a century, and I was born and spent my early childhood in the Nth Burbs of Melbourne in the 70s.

 

[yodellinhank]

Sadly, Fitzroy didn't have a very large supporter base. They hadn't had success since 1944, with those supporters dying off, new ones didn't really come along. I know the new clubs like Giants and Suns are still building supporter base, but Fitzroy was trying to keep up with the other Melbournian based clubs. I think they were lowest supported by the final season.

Deep in our hearts everyone barracks for Fitzroy, whether they say they barrack for somebody else or not.

 

[Coolangatta]

I agree, why do we have to have a single top league? Why not conference it?

Vic teams in their own conference, and every other club in another conference.

Sounds good to me!

Ha! That'll be the day. WA wanted in on the VFL and the VFL wanted WA to join the table: the rest is history.

I'd rather have the teams be a mixture of geography, performance, and rotational, with 5-6 Vic teams in one group, 4-5 in another. Keep the travel and variety spicy.

Keep in mind, I wouldn't have any issues with Ballarat-Bendigo or Albury–Wodonga getting their own teams eventually, though I suppose the latter is more a NSW/Vic hybrid. Even seen some cool names for them, the Goldfield Miners and the Murray Bushrangers.

Given expansion would only happen every 15-25 years a lot of these are a long way off though.

 

[Kwality]

For not changing from a single-tier system? Wouldn't geography strengthen the argument? Maybe the Eagles and Dockers wouldn't have to make so many long distance trips a year, when the likes of Tasmania and New Zealand are much closer to Victoria for travel.

Travel is an issue that the adopted VFL model did not face.
The suburban definition of away does not fit our national comp.