Have other sides caught up tactically to geelong??

[And_ROOS]

Back to back is the real measure.

Is it? Hypothetically if Richmond didn't win 2020, and just won 17/19 with GF appearances in 18/20 would you be saying sides caught up to them tactically?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I’m glad you finally do

Not cool to edit after you've been replied to, nice try though.

 

[My_Username]

How can we know?

All teams, including Geelong, will have looked at each other (especially the premiers) deciding what worked, what didn't, and how they can counter/exploit those things.

There will be plans in place as a result of all this.

How good those plans are, both tactically, and in terms of ability of the players to implement them is yet to be seen.

But you can bet that as soon as any club comes up with something that works, the other clubs will be looking on with interest.

 

[demondavey]

It was different, but the gameplay in previous years was very poor, it took Scott a very long time to recognise slow play and short kicks don't work in finals.

The Cats went back to playing "normal" football last year and finally all that talent resulted in success.

I say this from the angle that you've got the best player in the competition in Cameron and plenty of very good players who can't even get a game, it's been the best list ever since Dangerfield came over but has underachieved due to terrible, stubborn tactics.

Agree.

Given Geelong’s talent from when PD arrived, they should have at least one more flag. Probably two. Blown chances in 2016 and 2020. Probably 2021 to be honest. Their style was slow and cumbersome and never holding up, yet it would have been far more of a chance if Scott adopted a rapid gameplan like we saw last year.

They very well do it again this year.

 

[demondavey]

Again how can you state Geelong underachieved if other teams were more superior (regardless of what reasons you think makes them more superior)

You do understand that’s a contradiction right Corn Cobbers ?

No other teams were more superior list wise than Geelong. None. Geelong stuck with a stubborn game plan. Your lost has been elite for about 7-8 years now.

 

[demondavey]

Never said that regarding the bolded , If you are going to be over aggressive in your responses there’s no point continuing it further

My main point is that saying the club underachieved is abit far fetched of a statement

It’s not at all. You have had a brilliant list for a long time now and exceptional home and away results. Underachieving is exactly what Geelong did between 2016 - 2021.

Chris Scott didn’t adapt the gameplan until last year.

 

[demondavey]

Disagree again

While there is some truth to the poor gameplan that didn’t stand up in finals in previous years , some years we just weren’t good enough and had far too many gaps in our list (rucks and small forward and another key forward …lack of midfield support for Joel for example et al)

Some years we just fell apart by finals with injuries …it’s a bit too simplistic to state that the side underachieved as there were a lot of different factors affecting the list outside of the clubs control rather than just finals tactics alone.

Two years stand out as being lost opportunities; 2016 and 2020. Minimum. You would have beaten the WB by an absolute margin in 16 given you’ve had the wood on them for years, and in 2020 your game plan didn’t hold up even though you were 3 goals up at half time.

 

[demondavey]

Disagree again

While there is some truth to the poor gameplan that didn’t stand up in finals in previous years , some years we just weren’t good enough and had far too many gaps in our list (rucks and small forward and another key forward …lack of midfield support for Joel for example et al)

Some years we just fell apart by finals with injuries …it’s a bit too simplistic to state that the side underachieved as there were a lot of different factors affecting the list outside of the clubs control rather than just finals tactics alone.

How is it simplistic? You made a PF in 16,17,19,21. You can’t blame injuries and different factors, you had that many chances and should have addressed your gameplan well before last year. Fortunately for you you are stacked with talent and may well salute this year as well.

 

[Strange Cat]

It’s not at all. You have had a brilliant list for a long time now and exceptional home and away results. Underachieving is exactly what Geelong did between 2016 - 2021.

Chris Scott didn’t adapt the gameplan until last year.

A “superior” list and tactics alone won’t win a flag , if a side has key injuries at the wrong time it won’t make any difference . 2020 tigers were just better than us on the day , if we are going to talk about the list we had a 34 year old Ablett that was injuired on the night and continues to play and a half fit Dangerfield that had a very limited season….2014 was a decent shot before Dawson went down a few weeks before the finals and we didn’t have a fit Ruck for the finals and would had resulted us in playing the Hawks who went on to a threepeat I doubt we would had won anyway.

I wouldn’t call either list the most superior list .

And that’s not even talking about the other years where we had Joel shouldering the midfiled for years with a inadequate ruck and forwardline….so I’m unsure where this “superior” list nonsense is coming from when we have been told for years and years that H&A wins means nothing and all the sudden we have been underachieving…the narrative has sure changed since we won a flag.


so much has to go right to win a flag you should know that .

Like I have mentioned it’s abit too simplistic stating that Geelong underachieved…if anything we overachieved a lot over the years with the list we had which was called old and slow for years and years with some glaring issues with non exisiting ruck and lack of forward support ect ……all the sudden now people are trying to change the narrative that we were some kind of unbeaten juggernaut that should of won several flags.

If anything the 2007-2011 side should of won more imo

 

[Kwality]

Is it? Hypothetically if Richmond didn't win 2020, and just won 17/19 with GF appearances in 18/20 would you be saying sides caught up to them tactically?

Hypothetically.
The idea that tactics alone win a GF is worse than hypothetical.

 

[PhatBoy]

So when you had Ablett, Selwood and Danger, plus Stewart at one end and Hawkins at the other, you still had gaps in your list?

Yes. Cast your mind back to the volume of s**t cast at, in no particular order:

• Stanley
• Blicavs
• Cam Guthrie
• Zac Guthrie
• Gryan Miers
• Sam Menegola
• Jake Kolodjashnij
• Luke Dahlhaus
• Sean Higgins
• Jack Steven
• Gary Rohan
• Tom Atkins
• Jed Bews

When we were falling short of premierships all those players at some point were the butt of jokes and plenty of criticism.

Winning in 22 doesn’t, or shouldn’t, retrospectively change that and suddenly mean that ‘we had the best list all along.’

 

[Strange Cat]

Yes. Cast your mind back to the volume of s**t cast at, in no particular order:

• Stanley
• Blicavs
• Cam Guthrie
• Zac Guthrie
• Gryan Miers
• Sam Menegola
• Jake Kolodjashnij
• Luke Dahlhaus
• Sean Higgins
• Jack Steven
• Gary Rohan
• Tom Atkins
• Jed Bews

When we were falling short of premierships all those players at some point were the butt of jokes and plenty of criticism.

Winning in 22 doesn’t, or shouldn’t, retrospectively change that and suddenly mean that ‘we had the best list all along.’

Not to mention that we have been told for years that H&A wins means nothing and then all the sudden after winning a flag it actually means that the team was a powerhouse in those years

Bigfooty can’t make up its own mind , the list was made fun of for years and years and now we have posters claiming we had the best list of the last 10 years

Stupidity and contradictory at its finest

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Ok fair enough, agree with most of that, but I think you won on personnel rather than tactics.

Plenty of stars there for a long while but the missing ingredient was speed and that was rectified with the likes of Holmes and Close and a tweak from Scott to finally abandon the short passing game.

Agree that you would have flogged us in the GF, the QF was our best chance.

I disagree entirely that we have won on personel or even have some superior side. We essentially had dangerfield close to non existent all season thru being our or playing unfit, so essentially had a midfield led by a 34yo selwood and Isaac smith, with Guthrie and Atkins as our leading men… hardly elite A grade midfield when you compare it to others.

Our only genuine key defender has not even played 5 games at the commencement of the season…. Hardly ideal.. and nobody in the AFL community rated kolo, bews, or Henry as anything but average defenders.. the only genuinely rated one was Stewart.

and our forward line consisted of a delisted rookie mature pick in Stengle and brad close who was considered ok, as well as Rohan who hardly anyone rated before he tore collingwood open in that final… again hardly a medium small forward line to write about at season start.

Hawkins and Cameron elite obvious, but the way Scott used both was probably the difference with Cameron a roaming mid goal kicker.

So given how our side was rated, not sure how your concluding a team that was entirely written off as geriatric and over the hill with no good youth coming through as “the most talented side in the comp which won on personnel entirely”…. Huge stretch from the prior narrative that was spun on here…

What did happen is Scott designed a game plan that suited the personel we had at hand in 2022 with the improvements of players like close, Stengle, Atkins, a fit Cameron, SDK coming along, holmes coming on… probably missed a few.

Our game plan was not possible in previous years to implement as we lacked the personnel to execute it until 2022. You can see from 2020 in the season and even the finals right up until the GF where we ran all over Richmond early on that Scott has been trying to implement a run and carry game for years now. This is not some new thing in 2022.. difference is we have the personnel to pull it off now without severe defensive repercussions via turnovers like we did prior years where we seemed to lack cohesion and get stuck and turn the ball over.

 

[WillHayward]

Won't know until after the bye.
I expect Geelong to be on top at the bye.
But after that it becomes difficult to sustain it for a variety of reasons.
Interesting to see how they manage players and injuries etc

 

[Corn Cobbers]

I disagree entirely that we have won on personel or even have some superior side. We essentially had dangerfield close to non existent all season thru being our or playing unfit, so essentially had a midfield led by a 34yo selwood and Isaac smith, with Guthrie and Atkins as our leading men… hardly elite A grade midfield when you compare it to others.

Our only genuine key defender has not even played 5 games at the commencement of the season…. Hardly ideal.. and nobody in the AFL community rated kolo, bews, or Henry as anything but average defenders.. the only genuinely rated one was Stewart.

and our forward line consisted of a delisted rookie mature pick in Stengle and brad close who was considered ok, as well as Rohan who hardly anyone rated before he tore collingwood open in that final… again hardly a medium small forward line to write about at season start.

Hawkins and Cameron elite obvious, but the way Scott used both was probably the difference with Cameron a roaming mid goal kicker.

So given how our side was rated, not sure how your concluding a team that was entirely written off as geriatric and over the hill with no good youth coming through as “the most talented side in the comp which won on personnel entirely”…. Huge stretch from the prior narrative that was spun on here…

What did happen is Scott designed a game plan that suited the personel we had at hand in 2022 with the improvements of players like close, Stengle, Atkins, a fit Cameron, SDK coming along, holmes coming on… probably missed a few.

Our game plan was not possible in previous years to implement as we lacked the personnel to execute it until 2022. You can see from 2020 in the season and even the finals right up until the GF where we ran all over Richmond early on that Scott has been trying to implement a run and carry game for years now. This is not some new thing in 2022.. difference is we have the personnel to pull it off now without severe defensive repercussions via turnovers like we did prior years where we seemed to lack cohesion and get stuck and turn the ball over.

I agree the use of Cameron last year was excellent, and Stengle was an inspired pick up.

I've always rated Rohan, he can do everything, and I think he's been unfairly maligned for his finals efforts because there have been some drubbings where he never got a look.

Scott avoided the draft and topped up with veterans year after year so must have believed he had the personnel for a flag tilt.

Anyway winners are grinners and get to write the history, looking forward to see what Scott has up his sleeve this year

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Won't know until after the bye.
I expect Geelong to be on top at the bye.
But after that it becomes difficult to sustain it for a variety of reasons.
Interesting to see how they manage players and injuries etc

I think we might start slow or build ourselves into the season with managed minutes and rests… I think geelong will play a very cautious and low key approach all year and attempt to come home with a wet sail.

 

[Mr Meow]

Can you actually read properly?

I said the other teams had superior TACTICS.

At all times Geelong since Danger returned have had the best list in the comp.

The first year Danger arrived he and Selwood carried the side to a ridiculous extent. That's just not going to be enough in cut throat finals. Nor the old man defence with a lack of skilful, quick rebounders.

Every year after that the lack of midfield depth meant Danger and Selwood were cooked by finals time. They were often still in Geelong's better players but there was a drop off. Probably in every season until last year where both were rested regularly and only having around 70% maximum time on ground.

The forward line was various shades of abysmal until 2022 as well. 2021 Cameron carried niggles and didn't play to his potential, he was back to his best last year. The arrival of Stengle alongside a break out year from Close meant we finally had quality smalls with creativity and goal threat. Miers became a running machine link man as well. He'd had some disappointing years earlier. Getting genuine runners in Smith and Holmes allowed the game plan to change to a more attacking one, as did the emergence of SDK and Zuthrie in defence as we were no longer slow and cumbersome back there. With the wing spots now filled, Duncan could play more of a quarterback role to complement fellow good ball users Touhy and Stewart. Stanley finally had a consistent season. Atkins lifted several gears to become valuable hard nut at stoppages instead of a lost puppy at half forward.

There were a lot of personnel missing pieces that arrived or delivered on potential in 2022, and the list depth was much stronger. Hence, everyone fresh and firing for finals for the first time in probably a decade. A good run with injuries being the cherry on top.

 

[Mr Meow]

How is it simplistic? You made a PF in 16,17,19,21. You can’t blame injuries and different factors, you had that many chances and should have addressed your gameplan well before last year. Fortunately for you you are stacked with talent and may well salute this year as well.

If you extend the Dangerfield era to '22 for 5 PFs - getting 2 GFs and 1 flag from that is only slightly below average (it's what you'd expect from 4 PFs, as you're a 50% chance of a GF or 25% chance of a flag from there). 3 GFs or 2 flags would be above average. We saw some great sides in Brisbane, Geelong (2007 until Danger arrived), Hawthorn and Richmond scoop up 3 flags from a handful of prelims but that doesn't mean it's the standard.

2020 was the biggest lost opportunity because of a neutral venue in the GF. Plug in an actual forward line, like the 2022 version, and maybe they salute. But midfield depth was still a big issue hence why they could never run out those finals against Richmond. 2021 onwards addressed that both on the wings (Smith, Holmes) and at stoppages (Blicavs, Atkins). And having a genuine best 26 instead of the well running dry by about player 19.

 

[The hands of stone]

Most likely , beating it is a totally different thing.

 

[Cdog71]

It wasn’t a mystery, clubs knew what they were doing but stopping it is another thing.
They came within a whisker of going down to Collingwood not to mention only getting over a stumbling Richmond by three points.
They also had their very good players playing well when it mattered.
Thats probably more important than a structure or style.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Thread title is self-congratulatory, assumes you're way ahead of the pack tactically

But you won the QF by only 6 points, in the last 2 minutes, so at there's at least one side that can pretty much go with you, tactically or whatever

And only 12 months prior to that you were eviscerated by Melbourne in a prelim

Nice premiership but get a grip

12 months prior to Collingwood’s last flag in 2010 they were eviscerated in a prelim too, and to win that flag you needed a second chance because of a draw, still didn’t stop the media or your supporters saying how you were tactically miles ahead of anyone else…

 

[Corn Cobbers]

12 months prior to Collingwood’s last flag in 2010 they were eviscerated in a prelim too, and to win that flag you needed a second chance because of a draw, still didn’t stop the media or your supporters saying how you were tactically miles ahead of anyone else…

Yep, and 12 months later we got pantsed, that pretty much proves my point, cheers!

 

[Mr Meow]

Yep, and 12 months later we got pantsed, that pretty much proves my point, cheers!

Only one side caught up to you tactically, take out the Geelong games and Collingwood had one of the best seasons ever. The same Geelong that were badly exposed tactically a year earlier. Tactical shifts were massive parts of what allowed Collingwood to dismantle Geelong in 2010 and then the reverse happening the year after. So I think OP is right, it could be a big factor in a contender taking down Geelong this season.

 

[Strange Cat]

Only one side caught up to you tactically, take out the Geelong games and Collingwood had one of the best seasons ever. The same Geelong that were badly exposed tactically a year earlier. Tactical shifts were massive parts of what allowed Collingwood to dismantle Geelong in 2010 and then the reverse happening the year after. So I think OP is right, it could be a big factor in a contender taking down Geelong this season.

I think Melb are a big chance this year imo , just have to see how they manage the big two in Gawn and Grundy

 

[Mr Meow]

I think Melb are a big chance this year imo , just have to see how they manage the big two in Gawn and Grundy

To be honest they were a big chance last year but inexplicably fell into a hole (McDonald missing hurt them but that much?). Most of their list are in their prime, throw in Grundy and Hunter having good seasons and they can match their 2020 at least.