Oppo Camp Non-Eagles Discussion

[Chief]

Continued in Part 2:

Oppo Camp - Non-Eagles Discussion

Who gives a **** about finals anyway So overrated It’s all about the draft these days

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Mop]

I think lot of blame needs to be directed at the people appointed to the panel who were completely inept at running the process. I hope the AFL has refused to pay them.

The ABC should also have a good think about how them leaking the report messed with things as well.

Not sure how you can blame the ABC, he had a story and he ran it.

 

[Forward Press]

Not sure how you can blame the ABC, he had a story and he ran it.

If the ABC never leaked it, then the report would have been buried forever along with the suffering of the victims. That's a far worse outcome.

I am a strong believer in the media doing their job to shine a light on things that we may not like because we happen to support the individual, the organisation or their politics.

 

[bzparkes]

If the ABC never leaked it, then the report would have been buried forever along with the suffering of the victims. That's a far worse outcome.

I am a strong believer in the media doing their job to shine a light on things that we may not like because we happen to support the individual, the organisation or their politics.

Interestingly, Fagan's comments about the accusations being fake would infer that they're not, in fact, 'victims'. Especially as he made those comments after he read their documentation and the case against the 3 of them was dropped.

 

[ziad]

We are non the wiser

 

[Truckosaurus]

Interestingly, Fagan's comments about the accusations being fake would infer that they're not, in fact, 'victims'. Especially as he made those comments after he read their documentation and the case against the 3 of them was dropped.

He would have called them fake before he read the documents. In no way can you use the AFL's investigation to determine guilt or innocence of any party. Even leaving aside their long history of determining the most beneficial outcome for themselves and then working towards that rather than investigating dispassionately, this particular investigation was ridiculously inadequate.

All parties will have to live question marks over them (unless there is further legal action that goes to court). The AFL should never have attempted to handle something as serious as this internally.

 

[Forward Press]

Interestingly, Fagan's comments about the accusations being fake would infer that they're not, in fact, 'victims'. Especially as he made those comments after he read their documentation and the case against the 3 of them was dropped.

Great for him, but if you want to wholly believe Fagan but not believe the victims - then the logical extension is that you believe the trauma documented in that Hawthorn report was made up.

I'll leave it at that because I feel I might get too worked up about an argument about this.

 

[ZergMinion]

Interestingly, Fagan's comments about the accusations being fake would infer that they're not, in fact, 'victims'. Especially as he made those comments after he read their documentation and the case against the 3 of them was dropped.

I think it's important to remember the claimant who made the worst allegations didn't participate in the AFL process, so Fagan's statement only really covers those that did participate, so we don't even know which allegations he's talking about.

Better to look at Fagan's statement for what it is. A PR exercise.

 

[bzparkes]

Good to see people are guilty until proven innocent

 

[Forward Press]

Good to see people are guilty until proven innocent

You're equating that presumption of innocence with 'therefore the "victims" are making it all up'.

 

[bzparkes]

You're equating that presumption of innocence with 'therefore the "victims" are making it all up'.

I'm not but people are hanging Fagan, Clarkson & Burt out to dry without seeing any of the actual documented accusations, which Fagan has come out and said are fabricated, which he wouldn't have done without the advice of his legal counsel.

It's also somewhat eyebrow-raising that in their list of demands recently, that they wanted apologies and financial compensation before releasing said documents and undergoing mediation.

This isn't an act in good faith.

Fagan, Clarkson and Burt might very well be guilty of something, however in our legal system you receive a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Clarkson has stepped away from his position indefinitely due to being unable to cope with the outside pressures and harassment he's received as a result of this 'investigation'.

People have made up their minds, regardless of facts, and it's wrong.

 

[ziad]

You're equating that presumption of innocence with 'therefore the "victims" are making it all up'.

why am I agreeing with this? logic and human nature I guess. What you see depends on where you stand.

 

[Keys]

I'm not but people are hanging Fagan, Clarkson & Burt out to dry without seeing any of the actual documented accusations, which Fagan has come out and said are fabricated, which he wouldn't have done without the advice of his legal counsel.

It's also somewhat eyebrow-raising that in their list of demands recently, that they wanted apologies and financial compensation before releasing said documents and undergoing mediation.

This isn't an act in good faith.

Fagan, Clarkson and Burt might very well be guilty of something, however in our legal system you receive a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Clarkson has stepped away from his position indefinitely due to being unable to cope with the outside pressures and harassment he's received as a result of this 'investigation'.

People have made up their minds, regardless of facts, and it's wrong.

This is the worst outcome of the investigation - it didn’t make an actual finding of any sort just a resolution not to continue

Unless this goes to court and everything gets laid out from both sides we won’t know what really happened or have the information to make an informed opinion. All we have now is some allegations that have been denied

There’s simply no way of knowing whether they’re true or not

 

[bzparkes]

This is the worst outcome of the investigation - it didn’t make an actual finding of any sort just a resolution not to continue

Unless this goes to court and everything gets laid out from both sides we won’t know what really happened or have the information to make an informed opinion. All we have now is some allegations that have been denied

There’s simply no way of knowing whether they’re true or not

True but the fact that they were demanding financial compensation before agreeing to mediation and providing documentation to the 3 accused of the accusations they'd made muddies the waters.

Just release the documentation itself to the public, as per Fagan's comments, and let them see for themselves.

 

[ZergMinion]

True but the fact that they were demanding financial compensation before agreeing to mediation and providing documentation to the 3 accused of the accusations they'd made muddies the waters.

Did this actually happen?

 

[Forward Press]

I'm not but people are hanging Fagan, Clarkson & Burt out to dry without seeing any of the actual documented accusations, which Fagan has come out and said are fabricated, which he wouldn't have done without the advice of his legal counsel.

It's also somewhat eyebrow-raising that in their list of demands recently, that they wanted apologies and financial compensation before releasing said documents and undergoing mediation.

This isn't an act in good faith.

Fagan, Clarkson and Burt might very well be guilty of something, however in our legal system you receive a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Clarkson has stepped away from his position indefinitely due to being unable to cope with the outside pressures and harassment he's received as a result of this 'investigation'.

People have made up their minds, regardless of facts, and it's wrong.

When you use 'victims' in quotes it implies they are making it up. This is backed up by your argument that because they are seeking an apology and compensation first up, that therefore they are indeed making it up. I think this is more likely a misunderstanding with equally valid positions by both sides based on that misunderstanding, and I definitely don't think any of those three should be sanctioned without some kind of adverse finding from an independent arbiter.

I am not comfortable with the position however that their trauma is made up. I said two posts back that I should stop so I will stick to it. Apologies.

 

[FKASC]

‘victims’ until proven victims

 

[Dazzler9]

Alleged is a handy word.

 

[ziad]

Alleged is a handy word.

A bit like helping police with their enquiries.

 

[briztoon]

Did this actually happen?

Yes.

It was leaked to and published by one of the Vic newspapers and quoted in stories by other media, such as FoxFooty.

I linked it here a week or two weeks ago.

 

[ziad]

Not sure how you can blame the ABC, he had a story and he ran it.

Never trust the state run media

 

[KBLT]

‘Far from the end’: Hawks saga set to move to Human Rights Commission as families could go public

‘Far from the end’: Families could go public as Hawks saga set to move to higher legal powers

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[bzparkes]

Did this actually happen?

There was a list of their 'demands' a couple of weeks ago regarding what they wanted before they'd enter mediation.

There was far more than this.

 

[ziad]

‘Far from the end’: Hawks saga set to move to Human Rights Commission as families could go public

‘Far from the end’: Families could go public as Hawks saga set to move to higher legal powers

www.foxsports.com.au

Pity I dont watch reality TV

 

[Ishmael_]

This whole thing is very ugly but I actually think the AFL did the right by the complainants in setting up the panel.

It doesn't prejudice any future action, it allows them to air their grievances, there's no evidential burden, it's theoretically quicker, no cost orders and any recommendation is non-binding.

It would be hard to stomach if you were the respondent.

Conversely if they do want to go through something like the AHRC, they will need them to grant the inquiry which, as it's historical, is less likely and failing that go through the Federal Court to be granted a review. It's a long process.

One point I will make, is that there is a vast gulf between 'they are lying and it's all made up' and 'the allegations as stated are wholly factually true'.

Memory is fallible, conversations can be misconstrued and sometimes what you 'feel' to be true doesn't necessarily match the facts.

 

[Seadog]

Good to see people are guilty until proven innocent

They haven't been charged with anything, the presumption of innocence is not applicable.