Hardwick and Clarkson - AFL Legends?

[The Goon]

It doesn't count for a whole lot as just viewed as a player he's not anywhere near that level, but it's still worth something. He was also more than just the 22nd guy picked in the team and just played a role. He did make AA in 2000, so he stood out in a team that lost 1 game for an entire season. Not quite the Mcintosh comparison you made.

He was AA in 2000 where Essendon won a flag and have the best single AFL season.
He then goes to Port and is part of them winning their first and only flag (so far) in the AFL.
He then joins Hawks as assistant Coach as they win their first flag in 17 years.
He then joins Richmond and breaks a 37 year flag draught and wins 3 flags.

If he can add joining Gold Coast and taking them to their first flag after 13 years of failure, then it's quite impressive to look at as a whole really.

Also Gold Coast have been brimming with talent for how many years now? Yet they still haven't finished higher than 12th.

Yeah agree it counts form something, just not a lot (and yes the Kamdyn comparison is a touch hyperbolic). It may well get him into the hall of fame at some point, but as it stands wouldn't be anywhere near legend status without a fair degree of success at Gold Coast, at least IMHO.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

So Hardwick took on a team primed for success but it's highly unlikely he'll maintain his winning percentage. FMD. You're all over the shop.

He took on a team with a high potential for success. It could result in a 10 year stay and one or more premierships; it could just as likely result in three years, no finals and a sub-50% winning percentage. He thinks it's a good chance for him to jag a fourth premiership, at least a much better chance than he'd have at Richmond. On that I agree with him.

However his time at the Suns goes, he's likely to have a dip to his overall win percentage in the final few years of his coaching career, just as Jeans did, just as Malthouse did, just as Sheedy did, just as Matthews did, just as Smith did, just as Barassi did, just as Clarkson has had. Only McHale, Hafey and Parkin have been somewhat immune. When it comes to coaching careers, things typically end badly. Otherwise they wouldn't end.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Understand the argument. However relying on "Premierships won" as the only metric is also problematic. In an 18 team national competition, the opportunity is close to half as frequent as it was in the 60's or 20's/

Here is another thought? lets look at the legacy impact of the system that was run by how many successful senior coaches had thier start and tutelage under clarkson.

I borrowed this from elsewhere on the net:

Thats 4 premiership coaches that got a start, or at least learned a stack from working as a Clarko Assistant. The list also doesnt include Stewie Dew, who Clarkson mentored as a player, as well as a number for "career" assitants.

His method of building a club and culture was the blueprint for a lot of the success stories in the last few years, even though many in the media (and on bigfooty) prefer to take pot shots at him for his temper.

I havent done the homework, but I doubt Smith or McHale would have as tidy legacy when it came to knowledge transfer that benefited the league and other clubs. I understand that assitants were not as much of a thing back then. Lethal had a few proteges as well, but it was generally his players that became coaches (Scotts, Voss, Leppa) rather than the coaching staff.

To paint Clarko, his system and methodology as having a negligible impact is just not correct. For the last 11 years, 10 of the flags were either won by Clarkson, or one of his former assitants (Goodwin being the sole exception)

I think the legacy, coaching tree, signature coach of the modern era angle is an interesting one, as well as the notion of giving greater weight to premierships won in a 16/17/18 team competition over premierships won in a 12 team comp. Might be something in that.

Not sure if I'm missing how Geelong's 2022 flag could be credited to the Clarkson tree though? But point taken either way.

 

[MadMaxx]

I don’t think we’ll see a 5x premiership player again.

Probably, But Never say Never.

Brad Hill has x3 at 30 (He had 3 by 21!), and could be traded to a contender. Dan Rioli has x3 at 26. Add Vlaustin and Nankervis to that.

I think Tucks 7 may be out of reach for all time. The system wont allow sustained sucess to that level.

 

[MadMaxx]

I think the legacy, coaching tree, signature coach of the modern era angle is an interesting one, as well as the notion of giving greater weight to premierships won in a 16/17/18 game competition over premierships won in a 12 team comp. Might be something in that.

Not sure if I'm missing how Geelong's 2022 flag could be credited to the Clarkson tree though? But point taken either way.

Yep, Error.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Well no, she was 20.

That means she’s also a grown adult same as I was the first time I took an illicit substance and same as thousands of other people on any given weekend which seems to be glossed over whenever this is brought up. Why her age is mentioned is beyond me.

What we need though is some more discussion about the incident because I don’t think there’s been enough.

wow, dude, jesus

no way you would say that to the Horan family's face

 

[PhatBoy]

wow, dude, jesus

no way you would say that to the Horan family's face

Why would I ever have to.

Regardless it’s a fact.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Why would I ever have to.

Regardless it’s a fact.

If he didn’t play for Geelong you wouldn’t be defending him. Everybody including you knows that.

But the other poster was right there is no way you could have the courage to drive down there and say it to their face.

 

[PhatBoy]

If he didn’t play for Geelong you wouldn’t be defending him. Everybody including you knows that.

But the other poster was right there is no way you could have the courage to drive down there and say it to their face.

Well no, that’s not true. I’m not defending him, as ive pointed out several times. Leave the discussion to the grown ups. Of which she was one.

I would tell them that quite happily if they ever wanted to discuss it.

As the father of someone who has been abducted at knifepoint by a drug dealer because she was going out with and living with a drug dealer, because she decided as a grown adult to dabble in that stuff herself, I think I’ve got a bit more qualification on the subject than you. Off to bed now.

 

[PhatBoy]

Anything else you want to add Cleansweep17 with your vast life experience or you want to tell me a bit more about how I feel about the subject and why I feel the way I do?

Oi footy but ay

 

[BF Tiger]

Well no, that’s not true. I’m not defending him, as ive pointed out several times. Leave the discussion to the grown ups. Of which she was one.

I would tell them that quite happily if they ever wanted to discuss it.

As the father of someone who has been abducted at knifepoint by a drug dealer because she was going out with and living with a drug dealer, because she decided as a grown adult to dabble in that stuff herself, I think I’ve got a bit more qualification on the subject than you. Off to bed now.

BigFooty’s biggest flex ever.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Well no, that’s not true. I’m not defending him, as ive pointed out several times. Leave the discussion to the grown ups. Of which she was one.

I would tell them that quite happily if they ever wanted to discuss it.

As the father of someone who has been abducted at knifepoint by a drug dealer because she was going out with and living with a drug dealer, because she decided as a grown adult to dabble in that stuff herself, I think I’ve got a bit more qualification on the subject than you. Off to bed now.

If that indeed happened to your daughter. I’m surprised you aren’t sympathetic to Horans. Did you give your daughter the same cold shoulder treatment as well? Maybe get a heart dude.

 

[Cleansweep17]

BigFooty’s biggest flex ever.

Not really. Shows he has no empathy for anybody including his daughter. Sad, but it’s been scientifically proven some people haven’t developed the empathy side of the brain properly. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case here.

 

[PhatBoy]

If that indeed happened to your daughter. I’m surprised you aren’t sympathetic to Horans. Did you give your daughter the same cold shoulder treatment as well? Maybe get a heart dude.

No i was terrified for her and I’m very sympathetic to the horans as well. It doesn’t change the fact that decisions we make lead to consequences we suffer and those can’t all be placed at someone else’s feet.

 

[PhatBoy]

BigFooty’s biggest flex ever.

What by telling people I’ve had personal experience with family members impacted by drugs and drug culture and that I have life experience in the area beyond ‘you’re just saying this stuff because you’re a cats fan’? Yes that’s a huge ‘flex.’ Yeah that’s what it is. It’s flexing.

Come on BFG, you’re better than that.

 

[Cleansweep17]

What by telling people I’ve had personal experience with family members impacted by drugs and drug culture and that I have life experience in the area beyond ‘you’re just saying this stuff because you’re a cats fan’? Yes that’s a huge ‘flex.’ Yeah that’s what it is. It’s flexing.

Come on BFG, you’re better than that.

I think he was complementing you actually

But for real don’t use your tragic life stories to one up people in debates. It’s actually very petty and not appropriate on this forum.

 

[Cleansweep17]

No i was terrified for her and I’m very sympathetic to the horans as well. It doesn’t change the fact that decisions we make lead to consequences we suffer and those can’t all be placed at someone else’s feet.

But at the same time you are happy to say she asked for it straight to their face. Yeah very sympathetic man. Mother Teresa would be proud.

 

[PhatBoy]

But at the same time you are happy to say she asked for it straight to their face. Yeah very sympathetic man. Mother Teresa would be proud.

Again, please tell me where I said this

I would simply say to them if they were in a spot where they were emotionally capable of hearing it - I obviously wouldn’t walk up to someone at a funeral and say it, or whatever, but if I was pitched into a discussion about it, that I am incredibly sorry for their loss and that as a grieving family they are looking for someone to blame and that there is a huge degree of accountability on Gary Ablett’s behalf for not telling her what she was taking but that she is not without her own responsibility as a grown adult choosing to take illicit drugs as well.

If she had survived that encounter, what do you think her father would have said to her?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Again, please tell me where I said this

She’s 20 and she knew what she was doing was essentially was your argument. It’s victim blaming. The guy lied about what drugs she was about to take and the quantity and encouraged her to do it.

 

[PhatBoy]

She’s 20 and she knew what she was doing was essentially was your argument. It’s victim blaming. The guy lied about what drugs she was about to take and the quantity and encouraged her to do it.

Yes, when you are 20 you are an adult - your whole focus for much of your sparkling legal breakdown of the whole issue has centred around her age which is utterly irrelevant - and assume a degree of responsibility when you take drugs because no one truly knows what they are taking to begin with.

Only Back One Out initially made the relevant connection which was that he lied about what the drug was which was indeed his biggest crime and indeed what he should be judged most harshly for. And I have no issue with that.

What I do have an issue with is people absolving her of any part in her own tragedy

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yes, when you are 20 you are an adult - your whole focus for much of your sparkling legal breakdown of the whole issue has centred around her age which is utterly irrelevant - and assume a degree of responsibility when you take drugs because no one truly knows what they are taking to begin with.

Only Back One Out initially made the relevant connection which was that he lied about what the drug was which was indeed his biggest crime and indeed what he should be judged most harshly for. And I have no issue with that.

What I do have an issue with is people absolving her of any part in her own tragedy

Whatever man. I don’t want to talk about this anymore on this thread it’s not relevant.

To summarise the AFL cares about off field issues as well when considering people for Legend status. Which is why GAS and most likely Clarko aren’t ever getting in.

You can also bet your bottom dollar GAS wouldn’t have been put in the TOC if it was made after the Horan case.

 

[PhatBoy]

Whatever man. I don’t want to talk about this anymore on this thread it’s not relevant.

To summarise the AFL cares about off field issues as well when considering people for Legend status. Which is why GAS and most likely Clarko aren’t ever getting in.

You can also bet your bottom dollar GAS wouldn’t have been put in the TOC if it was made after the Horan case.

I agree he wouldn’t and he declined or tried to decline the hall of fame I’m guessing out of embarrassment from the resulting fallout

 

[TiggerMan22]

It's literally the OP.

Everyone - not just me - has said he isn't remotely close. Matthew Nicks could be an AFL Legend as a coach one day for all we know.

Other points:

Yes, I think Hardwick bailed as soon as he realised he'd royally screwed up Richmond's chances for the next five years or so and that finals - let alone flags - were not on the horizon. So he bailed and took on a list with a very high potential for success.

The win percentage was just an indicator that coaches typically finish their careers with one or more catastrophic seasons. So it's certainly no given that Hardwick maintains his existing win percentage, more likely that it drops (just as Malthouse's did) by the time he's finished.

Yes I think Collingwood in 1999 were in a similar hopeless state to Richmond in 2009. Wooden spoon, five consecutive years without playing a final, nine years without a finals win. They'd become irrelevant.

This comment thread started by asking the question of if he would be IF he won at gold coast. So it's talking about a hypothetical rest of career, isn't it?

Yep, talking about a 300+ game, 3x Premiership coach is totally the same as an 80 game coach. Another fantastic point lol.

I think we've already established that your opinion on the matter doesn't mean much, so

Yet again you talk like Hardwick is at the end of his career. You do realize his win percentage could go up when with gold coast, right? You're acting like it can only drop from here for some reason.

Ok I guess no point continuing responding to you. You have to have nfi if you think Pies 1999 was anything close to Tigers in 2009. Lmao. 5 consecutive years without finals? Oh the horror. Yeh mate, totally the same as 2 finals series over 3 decades.
Also where in that period were Collingwood on the brink of folding?

I don't think you've put together a single sensible argument yet. Impressive. Everything you write looks like it came from bay 13

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

This comment thread started by asking the question of if he would be IF he won at gold coast. So it's talking about a hypothetical rest of career, isn't it?

The question posed in the OP (word-for-word) is: "With Clarkson (4x premiership coach) and Hardwick (2x premiership players, 3 X premiership coach), do their current resumés get them beyond just the Hall of Fame and into the Legends category."

Then the OP Tonythetiger - gives their opinion which if you want to apply it strictly to the question they've asked and Hardwick in particular is essentially: "No, Hardwick's current resumé is not worthy of being made a Legend of the Australian Rules Hall of Fame."

Like practically everyone else who's answered (including me, funnily enough), Tonythetiger has added the caveat that if Hardwick has premiership success at Gold Coast, that could change.

Yep, talking about a 300+ game, 3x Premiership coach is totally the same as an 80 game coach. Another fantastic point lol.

Well compare him to the coaches who have 250+ wins then and have never apparently been in the discussion to be elevated to Legend status. Because as far as I'm concerned, he's miles behind Parkin, Malthouse, Hafey and Clarkson until he actually does something with the Suns, like takes them to the second week of finals. Until then, it's too far off to even discuss as a hypothetical, as far as I'm concerned.

I think we've already established that your opinion on the matter doesn't mean much, so

On what matter? I mean, if you and old mate Clean Sweep agree, you must be on the right track, I suppose.

Yet again you talk like Hardwick is at the end of his career. You do realize his win percentage could go up when with gold coast, right? You're acting like it can only drop from here for some reason.

I literally wrote that Hardwick could coach at the Suns for 10 years and win one or more premierships. I think it's just as likely that he doesn't coach for that long and ends up with a lower career win percentage than he currently has. Partly because I don't see him building something for eight years like he did at Richmond. I think he's expecting to see them compete for a flag within 2-3 years. And maybe that will happen with the talent they have. But a hell of a lot can go wrong.

Ok I guess no point continuing responding to you. You have to have nfi if you think Pies 1999 was anything close to Tigers in 2009. Lmao. 5 consecutive years without finals? Oh the horror. Yeh mate, totally the same as 2 finals series over 3 decades.
Also where in that period were Collingwood on the brink of folding?

I'm confused. Are you talking about the Save Our Skins campaign in like the late 80s? Like that had any relevance to Hardwick arriving 20 years later? If he'd played for Richmond, yeah maybe. As it was, he inherited a traditional power, who'd been starved of success and a huge fanbase who were desperate for success. Sounds quite similar to the situation Malthouse inherited at Collingwood in 2000, as if he could draw on the 1990 premiership to placate the Magpie Army. They hadn't won a final in nearly a decade and had just won the wooden spoon. Their club was at rock bottom.

I don't think you've put together a single sensible argument yet. Impressive. Everything you write looks like it came from bay 13

I don't know anything about Bay 13. What's it like?

 

[Back One Out]

decisions we make lead to consequences we suffer and those can’t all be placed at someone else’s feet.

I just saw this article today on abc.com

Man jailed for fatally injecting partner with heroin during anniversary celebration in Canberra

Christopher Weaver claimed in court his partner had requested she be injected with the heroin, but the judge found "he has to be accountable for his offending".

www.abc.net.au

Bloke was jailed for manslaughter because he injected his 40yo partner with heroin and she died of an overdose.
The thing is, she asked him to do it. She told him not to water it down because she wanted a good hit.

So this guy gets to spend the next decade in jail... while Ablett was never even charged for giving a line of heroin to Alisha Horan after he lied to her and told her it was cocaine and she died as a result.

You seem to gloss over this and act as though Alisha Horan did it to herself.

She didn't make a conscious choice to snort a line of heroin and put her life in danger. She was told it was coke. Had she known it was heroin, there is no fricken way she would've done it. It was Ablett's lie & supply which led to the tragic consequences. Her death should absolutely 100% be placed at Ablett's feet.

Like I said, it was incredible miscarriage of justice. A terrible finding by the coroner who no doubt absolved Ablett due to his profile as a recently retired AFL superstar. If it was Joe Bloggs, they would've locked him up.