List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Thomasno]

We’re paying our key forwards a lot of money for little return.

If they can have the same impact Charlie had when he first came, I’m interested.

Are we though? Joe’s contract was extremely front-loaded, so he wouldn’t be on all that much comparatively now. And Hipwood, as far as I remember there was never a reported dollar amount on his contract (just the length), which again reading between the lines tells you he’s probably not on huge coin.

 

[Thomasno]

If we're going down this rabbit hole.

If Hugh went to Geelong and we missed the 8, you'd take the compo pick.

Geelong are going to finish top 4. Adding Hugh, and they're probably finishing top 4 again next year.


You take our natural pick and compo pick, and package them up to move up in to the top 3. North should be splitting their first pick. Eagles should want a different type of mid than Levi, or look at splitting their first round pick as well.

Too risky for me unless we can somehow secure pick 1, there’ll always be the chance a club holds us to task and bids on Levi just to keep us accountable, especially with all the furore currently from Vic/WA clubs about “compromised drafts”.

 

[Thomasno]

You reckon berry won’t get 500k, he will be gone if he doesn’t , I’m thinking 750 to 800. His mate Hugh will might go with him. It will be last big contract for both so they will won’t as much as the can get. Can’t blame them. Read other club boards and a lot of other clubs value him more than his own supporters .

A lot of people here value Berry mate, you’re just replying to the one guy that thinks we won’t win a game for the next 10 years unless we trade out every current best-22 player

ADDIT: He’s now just said in another thread that everyone including the CEO has to go lol. Swannie getting a driveby now

 

[Tom14]

Us losing the grand final to Collingwood by a kick, turning to s**t and losing Hugh to Collingwood for pennies would be enough for me to permanently reside at the bottom of the Nerang River. God help me if that happens.

I wouldn’t worry about them. If I was the dogs though I’d be slightly concerned about Bailey Smith though.

 

[Tom14]

How can Geelong afford him? They took the Suns' salary dump and are stacked. If they get him, why have a salary cap?

Hugh will take a good but not top market deal.

Coincidentally he’ll also get a huge bargain on an investment property on the surf coast shortly after making the move.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

If Hugh did want to leave and we forced a trade, I wonder what fair market value for him would be.

We traded pick 6 & 19 for Lachie at a similar age to where Hugh is now (with a little bit coming back the other way), and Hugh probably has a fair few more runs on the board than Lachie did back then.

So fair market value would probably be similarly somewhere around a top 5 pick & another later first rounder at a guess? Not that we'd get that, though. And not that it would be even close to his actual worth to us.

 

[tony]

I reckon you read a bit too much into that Jason lol.

My take was the stuff about focusing on what someone can do rather than what they can't was aimed more at Stuart Dew than Fagan. Same with what Bez said.

Interviews are so chopped up though, you can't be certain of anything really.

Even when Berry was talking about how Hugh's decision would be a factor, you could tell there was quite a bit more he was saying about it, but you don't get to hear that.

My biggest recent memory of Berry was when he was talking about Fagan after the semi final win against Melbourne.

I'd do anything for that bloke.

Your right in that the channel 10 interview piece was chopped up. If you see the full interview with Jarrod he says he would like to play again with his brother at the end of their careers in local footy at Noosa and when asked about Hugh, he says he is pretty confident that he will stick around with us. Too me it sounds like they are both signing on.

7 min onwards, talks about playing with his brother, his contract and Hugh's contract.

 

[jjami15]

I’m know that we’re stinking it up at the moment but I do find it laughable that some posters are talking about the possibility of Neale being traded back west, to let go Hugh and Berry. Seriously guys, let’s not over react here.

 

[Elixuh]

How can Geelong afford him? They took the Suns' salary dump and are stacked. If they get him, why have a salary cap?

Geelong has their official salary cap and then all the money that goes to players off the books, eg through severely underpriced asset transfers.

The Bowes situation was a joke. I’m pretty sure they were permitted to restructure his deal where the suns weren’t otherwise able to. The AFL either shouldn’t have ticked off that deal or ticked it off on the proviso that they had to take the salary hit on the same terms GC would have.

 

[Grasshopper17]

If Hugh did want to leave and we forced a trade, I wonder what fair market value for him would be.

We traded pick 6 & 19 for Lachie at a similar age to where Hugh is now (with a little bit coming back the other way), and Hugh probably has a fair few more runs on the board than Lachie did back then.

So fair market value would probably be similarly somewhere around a top 5 pick & another later first rounder at a guess? Not that we'd get that, though. And not that it would be even close to his actual worth to us.

Hmmmm... 2 time best & fairest winner at Freo and 3 time Glendinning medal winner not good enough?

Also if I recall correctly Neale still had a year left on his contract when we poached him, which arguably renders any comparisons of the two even less relevant.

 

[Elixuh]

We need to keep Hugh and Berry otherwise we will struggle for top 4 next year and probably struggle to make the 8 the year after with some of our other players getting on. It’ll effectively force a mini list rejuvenation.

People had these same discussions when Lachie was thinking of leaving, “oh it’ll allow us to restructure our midfield etc’. Too much copeium in those types of discussions.

Hugh will be paid well. It would surprise me if he wanted to play for the Essendon or Collingwood’s of the world. Doesn’t seem that personality type. Prob us or Geelong.

I assume Berry will get roughly the average of his current deal which will probably be around the average afl player salary given the significant CBA increase.

 

[martinson]

If Hugh did want to leave and we forced a trade, I wonder what fair market value for him would be.

We traded pick 6 & 19 for Lachie at a similar age to where Hugh is now (with a little bit coming back the other way), and Hugh probably has a fair few more runs on the board than Lachie did back then.

So fair market value would probably be similarly somewhere around a top 5 pick & another later first rounder at a guess? Not that we'd get that, though. And not that it would be even close to his actual worth to us.

I think Lachie's record was better than Hugh's but I see Grasshopper's covered that. It was just that he was a low profile player considering how good he was.

 

[Grasshopper17]

It was just that he was a low profile player considering how good he was.

Bloke called Fyfe probably had a bit to do with that. Also I'm sure he was much more high profile in Perth, whose media we here in the east most likely consume very little of.

 

[ZoBlitz]

I’m know that we’re stinking it up at the moment but I do find it laughable that some posters are talking about the possibility of Neale being traded back west, to let go Hugh and Berry. Seriously guys, let’s not over react here.

Hey if you're not winning the big one, you need to win at having the best draft picks apparently.

 

[tony]

Article in the Herald Sun - Brisbane related parts.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/moneyball-hugh-mccluggage-in-demand-northern-states-clubs-push-back-on-midseason-trade/news-story/be7011651c0ce06299e2114a77ada4fa?amp

Moneyball: Hugh McCluggage

6

Hugh Mccluggage

Age

27

Ht

187cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.3

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

7.9

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

19.0

4star

K

12.0

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.0

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

in demand, northern states clubs push back on mid-season trade​

The race to secure 2024’s biggest free agent is heating up, with four clubs in Victoria leading the charge. Plus, the AFL’s mid-season trade plans could be scrapped if some clubs get their way.

At least four Victorian clubs are lining up for Brisbane midfielder Hugh McCluggage

6

Hugh Mccluggage

Age

27

Ht

187cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.3

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

7.9

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

2.2

4star

D

19.0

4star

K

12.0

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

2.0

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

as the Lions prepare to match any free agency bid which comes for the gun midfielder.

Collingwood, St Kilda, Essendon and Geelong are all circling the South Warrnambool product who will attract offers in the vicinity of $1.3 million to return home to Victoria.

The Saints want to be aggressive to attract top-line talent through free agency, while Collingwood also has salary cap room after repositioning their total player payments bill in recent years.

Geelong wants to add to its midfield stocks and Essendon coach Brad Scott has been clear he wants the Bombers to continue to scour the free agency pool.

But the Lions could scupper rivals’ efforts by matching a free agency bid which forces clubs to offer up picks in a trade to satisfy Brisbane.

Chris Fagan’s men would want multiple first-round picks in exchange for McCluggage or they would block the move.

It could mean McCluggage signs for two more years and then reconsider his future as an unrestricted free agent after 10 years service.

MID-SEASON TRADE PLANS TAKE HIT

Northern states clubs have pushed back on the AFL’s plans to introduce a mid-season trade period for next year.

The league has been in talks with clubs about bringing in a window to trade players in the middle rounds of next season to help increase player movement.

But this masthead can reveal Brisbane and GWS Giants are among the clubs who have made it clear to league headquarters they strongly oppose the concept.

There are beliefs among the northern-states clubs a mid-season trade period would heavily favour Victorian clubs where the bulk of the AFL player pool stems.

The Lions have told AFL officials it would be much harder to attract mature-age players to Queensland in particular if they had to take their children out of school in the middle of the year.

The northern states clubs have predicted the bulk of the movement would flow into Victorian rivals rather than the other way around.

The Giants have also told the AFL the end-of-season two-week trade period in combination with the mid-season draft and supplemental selection period already meets clubs’ needs.

Players could also be stranded mid-season if their moves fall over, leaving them out in the cold with teammates or fans in the middle of the season.

Currently, clubs begin to meet potential recruiting targets in the mid-season bye period, but those talks may have to take place in the early rounds of the season if the mid-season trade period was introduced, ramping up demands on clubs.

The AFL is keen to introduce a mid-season trade period to allow clubs to top-up on specific player needs in the event of a string of injuries.

The AFL Players Association approved the plan as part of last year’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.

But clubs remain in the dark about the potential rules and regulations of a mid-season trade period, including any potential salary cap implications and restrictions around picks or ages of players.

There are also fears clubs at the bottom of the ladder could be targeted, making lesser sides weaker in the second half of the season.

The league has presented to clubs as part of the competitive balance review, which includes proposed changes to the end-of-season draft and trade periods.

The draft points system is set for an overhaul, but clubs are eager for any changes to be pushed back until next year.

Clubs have already planned around father-son and academy targets for this year and think changes this year could have a major impact on plans which have been in-train for 18 months.

Draft pick purchasing where clubs such as North Melbourne could absorb rivals’ salary cap pressure in return for early draft picks is also in the works.

LIONS YOUNG GUN SET TO BAULK AT MOVE

Brisbane free agent Jarrod Berry

7

Jarrod Berry

Age

27

Ht

193cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

8.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.1

5star

CL

2.9

4star

D

10.6

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

will stay at the Lions despite rival interest in the wingman and inside midfielder.

Amid speculation about whether he might want more time as a pure midfielder the Lions have offered him a new multi-year deal.

It is understood Berry has no intention of exploring rival offers and could sign that deal in coming weeks.

The competition for midfield spots will only get fiercer as Will Ashcroft returns from an ACL tear and the club drafts father-son Levi and academy prospect Sam Marshall.

But he is invested in the chase for a premiership and happy in Queensland.

Brisbane has squirrelled away cap space over recent years so has money to lock away its out-of-contract players.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Article in the Herald Sun - Brisbane related parts.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/moneyball-hugh-mccluggage-in-demand-northern-states-clubs-push-back-on-midseason-trade/news-story/be7011651c0ce06299e2114a77ada4fa?amp

Moneyball: Hugh McCluggage in demand, northern states clubs push back on mid-season trade​

The race to secure 2024’s biggest free agent is heating up, with four clubs in Victoria leading the charge. Plus, the AFL’s mid-season trade plans could be scrapped if some clubs get their way.

At least four Victorian clubs are lining up for Brisbane midfielder Hugh McCluggage as the Lions prepare to match any free agency bid which comes for the gun midfielder.

Collingwood, St Kilda, Essendon and Geelong are all circling the South Warrnambool product who will attract offers in the vicinity of $1.3 million to return home to Victoria.

The Saints want to be aggressive to attract top-line talent through free agency, while Collingwood also has salary cap room after repositioning their total player payments bill in recent years.

Geelong wants to add to its midfield stocks and Essendon coach Brad Scott has been clear he wants the Bombers to continue to scour the free agency pool.

But the Lions could scupper rivals’ efforts by matching a free agency bid which forces clubs to offer up picks in a trade to satisfy Brisbane.

Chris Fagan’s men would want multiple first-round picks in exchange for McCluggage or they would block the move.

It could mean McCluggage signs for two more years and then reconsider his future as an unrestricted free agent after 10 years service.

MID-SEASON TRADE PLANS TAKE HIT

Northern states clubs have pushed back on the AFL’s plans to introduce a mid-season trade period for next year.

The league has been in talks with clubs about bringing in a window to trade players in the middle rounds of next season to help increase player movement.

But this masthead can reveal Brisbane and GWS Giants are among the clubs who have made it clear to league headquarters they strongly oppose the concept.

There are beliefs among the northern-states clubs a mid-season trade period would heavily favour Victorian clubs where the bulk of the AFL player pool stems.

The Lions have told AFL officials it would be much harder to attract mature-age players to Queensland in particular if they had to take their children out of school in the middle of the year.

The northern states clubs have predicted the bulk of the movement would flow into Victorian rivals rather than the other way around.

The Giants have also told the AFL the end-of-season two-week trade period in combination with the mid-season draft and supplemental selection period already meets clubs’ needs.

Players could also be stranded mid-season if their moves fall over, leaving them out in the cold with teammates or fans in the middle of the season.

Currently, clubs begin to meet potential recruiting targets in the mid-season bye period, but those talks may have to take place in the early rounds of the season if the mid-season trade period was introduced, ramping up demands on clubs.

The AFL is keen to introduce a mid-season trade period to allow clubs to top-up on specific player needs in the event of a string of injuries.

The AFL Players Association approved the plan as part of last year’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.

But clubs remain in the dark about the potential rules and regulations of a mid-season trade period, including any potential salary cap implications and restrictions around picks or ages of players.

There are also fears clubs at the bottom of the ladder could be targeted, making lesser sides weaker in the second half of the season.

The league has presented to clubs as part of the competitive balance review, which includes proposed changes to the end-of-season draft and trade periods.

The draft points system is set for an overhaul, but clubs are eager for any changes to be pushed back until next year.

Clubs have already planned around father-son and academy targets for this year and think changes this year could have a major impact on plans which have been in-train for 18 months.

Draft pick purchasing where clubs such as North Melbourne could absorb rivals’ salary cap pressure in return for early draft picks is also in the works.

LIONS YOUNG GUN SET TO BAULK AT MOVE

Brisbane free agent Jarrod Berry will stay at the Lions despite rival interest in the wingman and inside midfielder.

Amid speculation about whether he might want more time as a pure midfielder the Lions have offered him a new multi-year deal.

It is understood Berry has no intention of exploring rival offers and could sign that deal in coming weeks.

The competition for midfield spots will only get fiercer as Will Ashcroft returns from an ACL tear and the club drafts father-son Levi and academy prospect Sam Marshall.

But he is invested in the chase for a premiership and happy in Queensland.

Brisbane has squirrelled away cap space over recent years so has money to lock away its out-of-contract players.

Pleased the club is on the front foot about the mid-season trade period. Absolutely comical that it has been allowed to get even this far.

 

[Elixuh]

Article in the Herald Sun - Brisbane related parts.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/moneyball-hugh-mccluggage-in-demand-northern-states-clubs-push-back-on-midseason-trade/news-story/be7011651c0ce06299e2114a77ada4fa?amp

Moneyball: Hugh McCluggage in demand, northern states clubs push back on mid-season trade​

The race to secure 2024’s biggest free agent is heating up, with four clubs in Victoria leading the charge. Plus, the AFL’s mid-season trade plans could be scrapped if some clubs get their way.

At least four Victorian clubs are lining up for Brisbane midfielder Hugh McCluggage as the Lions prepare to match any free agency bid which comes for the gun midfielder.

Collingwood, St Kilda, Essendon and Geelong are all circling the South Warrnambool product who will attract offers in the vicinity of $1.3 million to return home to Victoria.

The Saints want to be aggressive to attract top-line talent through free agency, while Collingwood also has salary cap room after repositioning their total player payments bill in recent years.

Geelong wants to add to its midfield stocks and Essendon coach Brad Scott has been clear he wants the Bombers to continue to scour the free agency pool.

But the Lions could scupper rivals’ efforts by matching a free agency bid which forces clubs to offer up picks in a trade to satisfy Brisbane.

Chris Fagan’s men would want multiple first-round picks in exchange for McCluggage or they would block the move.

It could mean McCluggage signs for two more years and then reconsider his future as an unrestricted free agent after 10 years service.

MID-SEASON TRADE PLANS TAKE HIT

Northern states clubs have pushed back on the AFL’s plans to introduce a mid-season trade period for next year.

The league has been in talks with clubs about bringing in a window to trade players in the middle rounds of next season to help increase player movement.

But this masthead can reveal Brisbane and GWS Giants are among the clubs who have made it clear to league headquarters they strongly oppose the concept.

There are beliefs among the northern-states clubs a mid-season trade period would heavily favour Victorian clubs where the bulk of the AFL player pool stems.

The Lions have told AFL officials it would be much harder to attract mature-age players to Queensland in particular if they had to take their children out of school in the middle of the year.

The northern states clubs have predicted the bulk of the movement would flow into Victorian rivals rather than the other way around.

The Giants have also told the AFL the end-of-season two-week trade period in combination with the mid-season draft and supplemental selection period already meets clubs’ needs.

Players could also be stranded mid-season if their moves fall over, leaving them out in the cold with teammates or fans in the middle of the season.

Currently, clubs begin to meet potential recruiting targets in the mid-season bye period, but those talks may have to take place in the early rounds of the season if the mid-season trade period was introduced, ramping up demands on clubs.

The AFL is keen to introduce a mid-season trade period to allow clubs to top-up on specific player needs in the event of a string of injuries.

The AFL Players Association approved the plan as part of last year’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.

But clubs remain in the dark about the potential rules and regulations of a mid-season trade period, including any potential salary cap implications and restrictions around picks or ages of players.

There are also fears clubs at the bottom of the ladder could be targeted, making lesser sides weaker in the second half of the season.

The league has presented to clubs as part of the competitive balance review, which includes proposed changes to the end-of-season draft and trade periods.

The draft points system is set for an overhaul, but clubs are eager for any changes to be pushed back until next year.

Clubs have already planned around father-son and academy targets for this year and think changes this year could have a major impact on plans which have been in-train for 18 months.

Draft pick purchasing where clubs such as North Melbourne could absorb rivals’ salary cap pressure in return for early draft picks is also in the works.

LIONS YOUNG GUN SET TO BAULK AT MOVE

Brisbane free agent Jarrod Berry will stay at the Lions despite rival interest in the wingman and inside midfielder.

Amid speculation about whether he might want more time as a pure midfielder the Lions have offered him a new multi-year deal.

It is understood Berry has no intention of exploring rival offers and could sign that deal in coming weeks.

The competition for midfield spots will only get fiercer as Will Ashcroft returns from an ACL tear and the club drafts father-son Levi and academy prospect Sam Marshall.

But he is invested in the chase for a premiership and happy in Queensland.

Brisbane has squirrelled away cap space over recent years so has money to lock away its out-of-contract players.

The mid season trade period is one of the worst idea thought up by the AFL in recent memory.

My fear is the new AFL executive are trying to get runs on the board and will push through all of these dogshit changes.

If winning a flag isn’t already hard enough for non vfl sides wait until the mid season trade period comes in and Vic clubs can patch up injury holes (for instance) in their list midstream. Good luck to us trying to do the same.

 

[Dalions]

And to add to any mid season inequities in favour of VIC teams, they are looking at making it harder for Northern States to get access to their home grown talent as a double whammy.

 

[briztoon]

And to add to any mid season inequities in favour of VIC teams, they are looking at making it harder for Northern States to get access to their home grown talent as a double whammy.

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

 

[Elixuh]

I actually don’t have a problem with that. If you are a top 8 team, getting access to a top 5 prospect, it’s an unfair double whammy for bottom teams.

They don’t have access to a top rated kid, plus it sees a good team getting better and potentially extending their ability to remain at the top.

And if your are a good team with a production line of good players, and able to pick up kids far above your draft position across multiple rounds, that’s genuinely against competition balance.


Nor should we be complaining about access to “our kids”, while then complaining about Vic teams wanting to bring “their kids” home.

BT, my brother. There is no competition balance. We consistently have to strike kids off our draft list because there is an unwillingness to move from the city that houses half the teams in the comp. We have to use different metrics to other clubs because of the go home factor.

I can see an argument to SLIGHTLY water down the academy rules. If they were fair dinkum about growing talent in other regions like nsw and qld they’d leave it as is. Without us funding and running the academies many of these prospects don’t exist in the AFL system. It is unreasonably to expect us to fund and run academies for no benefit and even worse to the benefit of our competitors.

 

[briztoon]

BT, my brother. There is no competition balance. We consistently have to strike kids off our draft list because there is an unwillingness to move from the city that houses half the teams in the comp. We have to use different metrics to other clubs because of the go home factor.

I don’t disagree with this.

I can see an argument to SLIGHTLY water down the academy rules. If they were fair dinkum about growing talent in other regions like nsw and qld they’d leave it as is. Without us funding and running the academies many of these prospects don’t exist in the AFL system.

I’ll argue this is actually a fallacy.

The vast majority of successful academy graduates come from families that moved from Victoria/SA/WA, or come from local QAFL hardcore families, many of whom are very active with their QAFL club.

I researched this for both the Suns and Lions academy back around 2018.

 

[briztoon]

Edit: Not sure why, but the forum wasn’t allowing me to post my whole reply.


The academy does present as a pathway, and having direct access to kids does keep some kids in the system, but the majority of kids come from families like Keays, Bowes, Fletcher, where their dads were the main factor for them succeeding, and not the academy.

 

[briztoon]

It is unreasonably to expect us to fund and run academies for no benefit and even worse to the benefit of our competitors.

Finishing top 4 and top 8 will have a bigger impact on our access to top academy kids, if we get our academy producing on a similar level to a Coates Talent League club.

 

[M Malice]

Looking forward to academy product Cooper Hodge coming to the Lions otherwise he'd be on the Broncos books already.

 

[Elixuh]

I don’t disagree with this.


I’ll argue this is actually a fallacy.

The vast majority of successful academy graduates come from families that moved from Victoria/SA/WA, or come from local QAFL hardcore families, many of whom are very active with their QAFL club.

I researched this for both the Suns and Lions academy back around 2018.

BT can you post your entire analysis of every graduate since 2013, I need to validate your analysis.