Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

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Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[faible]

 

[fs88]

Are you talking about the genocide of the Palestinian people? You wouldn’t be doing that thing where you call all Palestinian people Hamas would you?

Yes genocide of the Palestinian people. Given Palestine seems to have no military or means to adequately defend themselves it seems like Hamas/their useless allies is all the have?

 

[faible]

So Hamas shouldn't have poked the bear if it/it's allies couldn't finish the fight?

Strange defence of war crimes here.

 

[faible]

Yes genocide of the Palestinian people. Given Palestine seems to have no military or means to adequately defend themselves it seems like Hamas/their useless allies is all the have?

So defenceless people’s should be genocided because they’re defenceless?

 

[fs88]

Strange defence of war crimes here.

lol quite the opposite fwit, been very grim watching.

 

[fs88]

So defenceless people’s should be genocided because they’re defenceless?

Well seems like no one in the western world seems to care to defend them.

 

[faible]

Well seems like no one in the western world seems to care to defend them.

Thus why so many of us are disappointed in our governments response.

 

[Saint]

Well seems like no one in the western world seems to care to defend them.

Yes, nobody is defending Hamas militarily.

But many are trying, politically, to stop a genocide of civilians.

They're being met with Israel and the USA abandoning democratic principles.

Which is exactly what Hamas and its allies want most. They're religious fanatics, they want theocracy to win over democracy, and they're achieving that.

The US Senate is sending threats to the ICC, Congress just passed the most unconstitutional law ever passed since slavery was abolished.

Meanwhile, in Israel, journalists who say nasty things are banned. Religious terrorists are in charge of part of the cabinet and openly calling for ethnic cleansing and war crimes.

Hamas got exactly what they want, which is the downfall of western democracy in the region. The US and Israel have exposed themselves as no better than Iran or Saudi Arabia. They've abandoned any rule of law. Iran will now develop nuclear weapons because why should they follow international law if Israel and the USA don't? Same with everyone else in the region, can toss the ICJ and UN in the bin.

 

[Zidane98]

Reports of an assassination attempt on MBS. Can't be a coincidence if true shortly after normalisation talks with Israel resumed.

 

[Number37]

There are many Christian Zionists as well, so it's not just radicalised Jews.

Wasn't the discussion about Israeli Zionists?

 

[Saint]

Reports of an assassination attempt on MBS. Can't be a coincidence if true shortly after normalisation talks with Israel resumed.

Yes, but by whom.

Guessing it was religious fundamentalists for Palestine. Because MBS can't side with Israel now.

I doubt it would be religious fundamentalists against Palestine because it makes siding with Israel now very difficult.

Saudi will lose all their regional sway both in the region, and worldwide, if they side against Islamic fundamentalists when it's Islamic fundamentalism they're trying to spread.

 

[faible]

Yes, but by whom.

Guessing it was religious fundamentalists for Palestine. Because MBS can't side with Israel now.

I doubt it would be religious fundamentalists against Palestine because it makes siding with Israel now very difficult.

Saudi will lose all their regional sway both in the region, and worldwide, if they side against Islamic fundamentalists when it's Islamic fundamentalism they're trying to spread.

MBS is pretty moderate and progressive by Saudi standards, not sure he's as in to the Islamic fundamentalism aspect as he is wealth and power.

 

[sr36]

As I've said though, there is Zionism and there is exclusionary Zionism. Only one of the two is Cancer.

Yeah but you don't use the term with that clarification.

Zionism was a movement for an extremely discriminated against group to have an autonomous nation state. Zion is Israel. The whole Zionism is cancer is essentially the call for the annihilation of Israel and Israelis. A lot of the mentions of Zionist in this thread reads like it's on a Neo-nazi or fundamentalist site. You need a different term if you don't want to be aligned with the right wing fundamentalists who yearn to drive all Israelis into the sea.

 

[faible]

Yeah but you don't use the term with that clarification.

Zionism was a movement for an extremely discriminated against group to have an autonomous nation state. Zion is Israel. The whole Zionism is cancer is essentially the call for the annihilation of Israel and Israelis. A lot of the mentions of Zionist in this thread reads like it's on a Neo-nazi or fundamentalist site. You need a different term if you don't want to be aligned with the right wing fundamentalists who yearn to drive all Israelis into the sea.

Pretty sure the Israeli military machine is loved by the right-wing of the western world.

 

[sr36]

Pretty sure the Israeli military machine is loved by the right-wing of the western world.

Agree, but you might have missed the qualifier I gave for the particular part of the right wing I was talking about "who yearn to drive all Israelis into the sea."

 

[faible]

Agree, but you might have missed the qualifier I gave for the particular part of the right wing I was talking about "who yearn to drive all Israelis into the sea."

Neo-Nazis must be so torn. On one hand, Jews. On the other, hard right-wing ethno state killing brown people.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, but by whom.

Guessing it was religious fundamentalists for Palestine. Because MBS can't side with Israel now.

I doubt it would be religious fundamentalists against Palestine because it makes siding with Israel now very difficult.

Saudi will lose all their regional sway both in the region, and worldwide, if they side against Islamic fundamentalists when it's Islamic fundamentalism they're trying to spread.

MBS is never going to side with Israel. He does want stability in the region though, the exact opposite of what Iran wants.
Hence Saudi Arabia resuming normalisation talks of which the aim is not to side with Israel.

 

[sr36]

Neo-Nazis must be so torn. On one hand, Jews. On the other, hard right-wing ethno state killing brown people.

It's a win win for them. They get to run with Jews are evil and Muslims are evil terrorists.

 

[Zidane98]

It's a win win for them. They get to run with Jews are evil and Muslims are evil terrorists.

Never looked at it in that light which actually is quite logical. No wonder the hardcore modern day Neo Nazis love this war. An added bonus for Neo Nazis is those who cite the Holocaust when discussing the current war.

 

[sr36]

Never looked at it in that light which actually is quite logical. No wonder the hardcore modern day Neo Nazis love this war. An added bonus for Neo Nazis is those who cite the Holocaust when discussing the current war.

Like Bibi? He's don't it a fair few times, but that doesn't seem to get categorised as anti-semetic...

 

[Zidane98]

Like Bibi? He's don't it a fair few times, but that doesn't seem to get categorised as anti-semetic...

Yes, from both sides. He obviously isn't bringing up the Holocaust to use against Israel but the fact he does at all is another bonus for hardened Neo Nazis.

 

[Saint]

Neo-Nazis must be so torn. On one hand, Jews. On the other, hard right-wing ethno state killing brown people.

They're saying Soros (the Jewish puppet master) is also funding the pro-Palestinian protests. They're bananas as usual, but only as bananas as the people saying that religious fundamentalism and genocide are wrong, and saying it as defence of Israel.

 

[Saint]

MBS is pretty moderate and progressive by Saudi standards, not sure he's as in to the Islamic fundamentalism aspect as he is wealth and power.

Yes, but Saudi is not a dictatorship, it's a theocratic monarchy without clear/accepted lines of succession. There's always a cousin waiting to lop off the head, say he wasn't devout enough and take over with the support of the Muftis who have been put in the shade by MBS.

MBS and Abdullah in Jordan are walking a very thin line of maintaining power but also western favour.

For thousands of years, the problem with Middle Eastern monarchies was that they didn't have accepted primogeniture. So the siblings always went to war every time the king died and kingdoms fell apart. MBS put a lot of relatives under house arrest. MBS is his dad's 7th son and when the King dies, expect MBS to have a fight on his hands (or commit a fairly decent cleansing of uncles, brothers and cousins). Isolating himself from power bases such as the Muftis isn't a great idea.

If Saudi turned against Israel in the near future or distanced from the USA, Israel would be in all sorts of trouble.

 

[Chief]

Never looked at it in that light which actually is quite logical. No wonder the hardcore modern day Neo Nazis love this war. An added bonus for Neo Nazis is those who cite the Holocaust when discussing the current war.

I thought those guys don't even believe it happened.

 

[Not Important]

those who see evil respond with action.