Autopsy Round 16 = Gold Coast 101-90 Collingwood

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Hit outs : Witts 32 Cameron 28 Lukosius 2 Krueger 9

Centre clearances : Suns 12 Pies 11

Clearances : Suns 32 Pies 39

Stoppage clearances : Suns 20 Pies 28

Yeah, I didn't see the clearances as the problem, more directly after the clearances and in general play contested ball. Why are people talking about Cameron as an issue? He was solid against a very good opponent.

 

[BillyElliott]

Yeah, I didn't see the clearances as the problem, more directly after the clearances and in general play contested ball. Why are people talking about Cameron as an issue? He was solid against a very good opponent.

I know right. We won the hit outs..yet apparently Cameron was monstered ??

 

[Kirby]

Cox always plays more than minimal minutes which is all we can afford when Krueger is the second ruckman.

Cox is capable of taking on the lead role in the ruck if necessary and was for a period of time last year the preferred starting option in the finals.

We have also won many more games than we have lost with Cox spending plenty of time in our forward line.

You are talking about the Cox who played well at the tail end of last year (as a ruckman) and not the Cox who has played this year.

Last night was a game where we had stuff all balls kicked down the line. I suspect he would have been invisible as a forward and he wouldn’t have got the mark on the lead that Kreugs got for our last goal. There’s certainly no way we would have got Jordy’s first goal without Kreug’s tackle.

So, I think we can only attempt to measure his loss as a ruckman as against our loss with him playing forward.

 

[jmac70]

GCS only had Witts, so not sure you’ve made your case that Cox is only needed when we face a 2 Ruck combo.

Witts is part of a midfield group who had our measure.
Cox wouldn’t have changed that.

 

[Roverjg]

What has saved us in a lot of our wins from the jaws of defeat, has been the opposition’s inability to kick a goal in the last 2 minutes when it mattered with many near misses. GC kicked 2 goals – it was only a matter of time before a team did this

Naicos was simply… brilliant for all 4 quarters – 32 disposals, 5 clearances, 5I50’s, 2 goals, 9 SI’s & 691 MG and to a lesser extent JDG & Jaicos, otherwise we looked, slow, inept & lacked pressure

Watching it on TV I was sure the Pies were slaughtered in centres clearances due to so many of GC’s midfield roaming out of the centre at will with ball in hand. Their midfield of Flanders, Anderson, Miller, Rowell & Witts moved the ball with pace, precision & effectiveness. They appeared to always take the first option which made them look quicker.

Anderson 39 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 I50’s, 8 SI’s

Flanders 33 disposals, 6 clearances, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 1 goal

Miller 31 disposals, 4 clearances, 5 I50’s, 9 SI’s, 2 goals

Ainsworth 28 disposals, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 2 goals

Witts, 19 disposals, 3 clearances, 6 I50’s, 32 HO’s, 7 SI’s

Yet we won clearances & stoppages. Clearly we didn’t do much with it

However what didn’t lie is has happened in nearly every game this year, is the opposition’s ability to deny our midfield the ball for long chunks of time in quarters, and our inability to reset or change during a quarter, resulting in a run on of goals

GCS had +18 more I50’s. It felt at times that the ball lived there

The lack of pressure from our midfield allowed the GC HB’s, mid’s & HF’s to bring the ball in at will creating both real & perceived pressure. When this occurs our zone defence makes our backs look like fools. I counted more than 5 times where our defenders could not impact a contest because they were guarding space between two opponents, because the lack of pressure upfield provided too many options. Having said that, our defence was poor. All of them appear down on form. Howe was unaccountable before he was moved forward. Frampton lacked any physicality & failed to impact the contest. Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

25

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

had 4 marks (all uncontested) & kicked 4 goals. Moore was less

We also played into GCS hands by flooding the backline. Time and time again we had so many players in D50 that we could not transition the ball out of defence, as we had no one to kick to, resulting in repeat I50’s for GCS

Unfortunately we had too many players having poor nights. Crisp was fumbling all night. He was let-down further by his poor disposal (7 clangers/ 8 direct turnovers). Sullivan (33%), Hill (50%), McCreey (44%), Sidey (55%) & Pendles (55%) were also poor with ball in hand

Cameron was good around the ground for much of the night. I remain frustrated by his unwillingness to jump at ball ups, take his eye off the ball & attempt to wrestle for a tap. I am livid by his lack of peripheral vision in that every game he hack kicks out of a contest (when he has options around him) which constantly results in a turnover & often leads to goals as it did last night. This stopped all of our momentum when we had just hit the front. We did not recover

The ball continued to come out of our forward line too easily. We missed Schultz’s forward pressure & tackling last night. We have missed Mason Cox

18

Mason Cox

Age

35

Ht

211cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.7

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

3.5

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.2

4star

D

6.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.0

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

1.8

5star

in every game since his injury. His first hands to the ball in ruck & the structure and marks he provides coming out of defence. We need him back ASAP

I think that these types of games will continue. We do not have the personnel to play the game plan 100% of the time. But our game plan & belief is such that we are never out of the game. Fly & his team constantly find new ways for us to score goals & compete.

However, we need more personnel to plug gaps that our list does not have. We need pace in our midfield. We also need a beast like Rowell. We need a ruck that can jump. We need a big KPD who can mix it physically & lock-down a forward

 

[Kirby]

Hit outs : Witts 32 Cameron 28 Lukosius 2 Krueger 9

Centre clearances : Suns 12 Pies 11

Clearances : Suns 32 Pies 39

Stoppage clearances : Suns 20 Pies 28

Fly said we did alright in the contest ( which is shown in the stats) but lost the game on the outside of that.

For most of the game we couldn’t stop their transition.

 

[sr36]

In a game where we concede 68 inside 50s and the Suns dominate play in their forward half it’s interesting that a significant number of posters concentrate their wrath and blame on our backline.

It's pretty simple. We defend aggressively starting with gang tackling in the midfield. But if we miss a tackle, they can get ahead of the pack and defenders roll up to stop it, leaving us really exposed inside 50. Like any system, ours has weaknesses that can be exploited if the opposition is good enough or more commonly when we're a bit flat, missing tackles and thus not able to maintain pressure.

Moore's going well defensively, but teams are putting a lot of work into stoppiing him intercept mark with a fair bit of scgragging - so he's not dominating the air as much as we're used to.

Billy's Billy - a bit of a battler whose good with predictable entries to a contest, but doesn't react as quickly as he needs to with other entries.

We were still in holiday mode in the first half, which happens to heaps of teams straight after the bye. I thought we were good in the second half, but they got lucky in the third quarter.

 

[jimmy35]

Suns beat us in the middle.
That’s where the game was lost.

Caned us.

 

[gerryg400]

Play Russian Roulette often enough, you’re gonna end up dead.

We can’t keep giving up big leads and expecting to be able to click our fingers and reel them in.

We are especially poor in the games when we go in as favourites. We need to become ruthless in burying the sides below us on the ladder but instead we give everyone a chance.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Swans learned this yesterday too. Not all teams play 4 quarter games.

 

[sr36]

Hit outs : Witts 32 Cameron 28 Lukosius 2 Krueger 9

Centre clearances : Suns 12 Pies 11

Clearances : Suns 32 Pies 39

Stoppage clearances : Suns 20 Pies 28

In the first half it was the post stoppage stuff. They got numbers in front and behind the stoppage so our clearances went nowhere and they were able to chain it forward for really dangerous entries.

 

[jathanas]

I agree with the Executive GM of Europe.

This was a down team performance, as evident by the i50 differential. GC delivered the ball into their forward line at will.

Collingwood did not bring their pressure game. The defence looking under siege is a symptom of this, not a cause.

The way the Pies got as close as they did in the end is "true-to-brand". You can never write them off.

Onwards and upwards.

 

[Do_Beta_Rapport]

Suns beat us in the middle.
That’s where the game was lost.

Keen to see if Ned Long can fit into the mix, we desperately need a big body in there to create some space.

 

[jmac70]

I agree with the Executive GM of Europe.

This was a down team performance, as evident by the i50 differential. GC delivered the ball into their forward line at will.

Collingwood did not bring their pressure game. The defence looking under siege is a symptom of this, not a cause.

The way the Pies got as close as they did in the end is "true-to-brand". You can never write them off.

Onwards and upwards.

We need to bring the heat on Friday night.

Smash the arse hats into oblivion.

 

[jmac70]

Keen to see if Ned Long can fit into the mix, we desperately need a big body in there to create some space.

That would be good. Definitely short of a stoppage player.

 

[Gaspard]

What has saved us in a lot of our wins from the jaws of defeat, has been the opposition’s inability to kick a goal in the last 2 minutes when it mattered with many near misses. GC kicked 2 goals – it was only a matter of time before a team did this

Naicos was simply… brilliant for all 4 quarters – 32 disposals, 5 clearances, 5I50’s, 2 goals, 9 SI’s & 691 MG and to a lesser extent JDG & Jaicos, otherwise we looked, slow, inept & lacked pressure

Watching it on TV I was sure the Pies were slaughtered in centres clearances due to so many of GC’s midfield roaming out of the centre at will with ball in hand. Their midfield of Flanders, Anderson, Miller, Rowell & Witts moved the ball with pace, precision & effectiveness. They appeared to always take the first option which made them look quicker.

Anderson 39 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 I50’s, 8 SI’s

Flanders 33 disposals, 6 clearances, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 1 goal

Miller 31 disposals, 4 clearances, 5 I50’s, 9 SI’s, 2 goals

Ainsworth 28 disposals, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 2 goals

Witts, 19 disposals, 3 clearances, 6 I50’s, 32 HO’s, 7 SI’s

Yet we won clearances & stoppages. Clearly we didn’t do much with it

However what didn’t lie is has happened in nearly every game this year, is the opposition’s ability to deny our midfield the ball for long chunks of time in quarters, and our inability to reset or change during a quarter, resulting in a run on of goals

GCS had +18 more I50’s. It felt at times that the ball lived there

The lack of pressure from our midfield allowed the GC HB’s, mid’s & HF’s to bring the ball in at will creating both real & perceived pressure. When this occurs our zone defence makes our backs look like fools. I counted more than 5 times where our defenders could not impact a contest because they were guarding space between two opponents, because the lack of pressure upfield provided too many options. Having said that, our defence was poor. All of them appear down on form. Howe was unaccountable before he was moved forward. Frampton lacked any physicality & failed to impact the contest. Ben King had 4 marks (all uncontested) & kicked 4 goals. Moore was less

We also played into GCS hands by flooding the backline. Time and time again we had so many players in D50 that we could not transition the ball out of defence, as we had no one to kick to, resulting in repeat I50’s for GCS

Unfortunately we had too many players having poor nights. Crisp was fumbling all night. He was let-down further by his poor disposal (7 clangers/ 8 direct turnovers). Sullivan (33%), Hill (50%), McCreey (44%), Sidey (55%) & Pendles (55%) were also poor with ball in hand

Cameron was good around the ground for much of the night. I remain frustrated by his unwillingness to jump at ball ups, take his eye off the ball & attempt to wrestle for a tap. I am livid by his lack of peripheral vision in that every game he hack kicks out of a contest (when he has options around him) which constantly results in a turnover & often leads to goals as it did last night. This stopped all of our momentum when we had just hit the front. We did not recover

The ball continued to come out of our forward line too easily. We missed Schultz’s forward pressure & tackling last night. We have missed Mason Cox in every game since his injury. His first hands to the ball in ruck & the structure and marks he provides coming out of defence. We need him back ASAP

I think that these types of games will continue. We do not have the personnel to play the game plan 100% of the time. But our game plan & belief is such that we are never out of the game. Fly & his team constantly find new ways for us to score goals & compete.

However, we need more personnel to plug gaps that our list does not have. We need pace in our midfield. We also need a beast like Rowell. We need a ruck that can jump. We need a big KPD who can mix it physically & lock-down a forward

This post more or less covers it. The game looked so much like the first three of the year with a comeback added. Crisp, as in those games was fumbly and unable to break through. He has had games like this throughout his career, when you question his ability. The other couple of hundred should answer that question.
The last few minutes seemed to contain a bit of complacency. The feeling on the field seemed to be "we've got them like we always do".
I tend to agree with the posters who say that winning this would not have been good for the team. It would have been undeserved.
I agree with those who think we were outcoached. The occasional blast out of the backline into a vacant forward area for a goal was overmatched by their relentless running forward to provide a handball option.
I don't accept the criticism of Cameron's late dump kick. He's a ruckman and he does it all the time. His more measured kicks when the pressure is less are a bonus.

This loss doesn't end the season, but is does provide a reality check. We are not the team of last year, and a lot will have to be fixed, particularly in the ball attack sphere, for us to go very far.

Richards is the glowing candle of promise in the gloom, but he is not the messiah.

 

[BuildEmUp]

Suns beat us in the middle.
That’s where the game was lost.

doesnt look that way ... . the game was lost because there was zero pressure from Pies for 70% of the game


Centre clearances : Suns 12 Pies 11

 

[Hazz]

The re-writing of Cox as a star difference maker is interesting. I must have been watching a different player earlier this year.

I won’t argue that he may have been better in the centre bounces against Witts when it was his rotation, however, that was likely to be only minimal minutes like Kreuger had as Cameron has had a great year and is a top 4 ruck in the comp this year.

That means that Cox would have played forward most of the game and the way it was played with our lack of territory I’m sure he would have been invisible and a liability for defensive pressure.

Cox takes a lot of CBAs. Obviously the number CBAs vary each week but he'd have to be averaging 25-30% based of the data below in the first screenshot.

The numbers in the second screenshot show that his RC% (Ruck contest %) would be averaging well over 25% of all ruck contests in matches.

Anecdotally, I feel that with Coxy at CBAs we have more clear ruck wins leading to clean clearances, AND less clear ruck losses with clean clearances against, but that's just my eye test.

As an aside, the data comes from the site below, brilliant for fantasy footy or for pointless arguments/discussions, both of which I'm partial to.

AFL Home - DFS Australia

AFL News General Links Fixtures & Results Game Highlights NEW National Drafts NEW Player Tracking Player & Team Stats Player Stats Summary Player Disposal Maps NEW Round by Round – CBAs Round by Round – Kick Ins Round by Round – Ruck Contests Round by Round – Substitutes NEW Statistical Summary...

dfsaustralia.com

 

[76woodenspooners]

Don't know how Markov escapes so much attention.

He's in the team for his rebound and he went on 2 runs last night, both of which he ended up kicking straight to a GC player.

The game is played at such a frenetic pace that it’s very rare that players have the time and space to pause to assess where all the chess pieces are on the board before picking the correct option. There is some reliance on targets being in place - especially when exiting out of the D50.

You or I or the rest of us have no idea whether these examples were Markov’s fault for where he directed the ball, or whether it was the fault or somebody downfield not doing / being where they should.

 

[76woodenspooners]

What really annoyed me, the kick outs in the last quarter at the end. Into the corridor that was absolutely flooded. Why did we keep doing that!! When it didn’t work the first time, shouldn’t have tried it again.

It’s about risk / reward. We weren’t that far off pulling those kicks off, and if the oval ball had bounced a different way we’d be bathing into the afterglow of the tactical genius of us kicking the ball through the middle.

One thing I’m surprised about it those instances is that players don’t bring out the torpedo. The ball goes further and is harder to mark - which is a good thing when you have players like Bobby Hill and Nick Daicos on the end of it.

 

[KillerMagpies]

As usual.
Nick Daicos (and DeGoey) vs Rowell, Anderson, Miller, Flanders.
Got behind by 34 pts, we hit the lead with 3 minutes to go and they kicked 2 goals. Our defence didn’t hold up in the last because Howe had to go forward, Maynard was off with a corkie and Noble off with a concussion protocol.

 

[76woodenspooners]

TD posts some silly comments after a loss.

He’s not Robinson Crusoe.

This is true.

Robinson Crusoe is a fictional character in an 18th century novel.

TradeDraft by contrast is a passionate, loveable Collingwood supporter who is real in the 21st century.

 

[No SPIN]

Witts is part of a midfield group who had our measure.
Cox wouldn’t have changed that.

The combination of DC and Cox would have curbed the influence of Witts at stoppage and around the ground.
The impetus to their midfield group logically would have been blunted.
With Krueger backing up DC this wasn’t possible.
Also DC could have played back or Fwd while Cox gave a strong contest in the Ruck.
I doubt we go with one Ruck next time against GCS.

 

[FatherTime]

GCS only had Witts, so not sure you’ve made your case that Cox is only needed when we face a 2 Ruck combo.

I said nothing about facing 2 ruck combos, that Cox is only needed when Cameron is confronting an exceptionally tall ruck likely to beat him.

 

[jmac70]

The combination of DC and Cox would have curbed the influence of Witts at stoppage and around the ground.
The impetus to their midfield group logically would have been blunted.
With Krueger backing up DC this wasn’t possible.
Also DC could have played back or Fwd while Cox gave a strong contest in the Ruck.
I doubt we go with one Ruck next time against GCS.

Just be thankful we have Nick.
Without him we loose that game by ten goals, even with Cox.

 

[No SPIN]

I said nothing about facing 2 ruck combos, that Cox is only needed when Cameron is confronting an exceptionally tall ruck likely to beat him.

This is a quote from your posts - if you’d used Ruckman ie singular, then it would have been less ambiguous.
So I missed your point.

“And Cox is really only best 22 against teams with abnormally tall rucks who will trouble Cameron.”