Where does Marcus Bontempelli sit in the players of this era

[manutd/dogs]

Incredible player. And also one of the few who in addition to being able to handle Carey, had a similar and almost as good a skillset - ie. could dominate in the same role, could go into the middle or go back etc, albeit he didn’t spend nearly as much time staying put up forward.

Amazing field kick, and an even better handballer with a brilliant footy brain. He was, dare I say it, almost Bont-like in that respect. And if Grant was a Rolls-Royce then Bont is a Bugatti Veyron.

 

[Bushdid911]

Bont is already equal with Dusty for most career 3 Brownlow vote games. He will pass the likes of Robert Harvey. Sam Mitchell and Chris Judd this year. And there's a good chance he will have the most all time by next year, passing Gaz, if he is healthy. It's the low number of 1 and 2 vote games that has cost him come Brownlow time.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Is Whitten/Bont then Hawkins an easy top 3 for dogs fans? Who else is contending for that third spot?

As an, err, older Dogs supporter, I'd put Bernie Quinlan in there, too.
Freakishly good.

I still say he's the most naturally gifted player I've ever seen.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

I figured Gary Dempsey was worth a shout, also is there a consensus on who was better between Templeton and Chris Grant

Grant was the more complete footballer.

He could win a game from CHF, and save a game from CHB. Play him wherever needed. Whitten-like in that respect.

Templeton was a (great) pure forward.

 

[Simche]

Depends what the poster means by 'this era'. He's 28 and arguably the best player in the competition at the moment.

He's light on with the all time greats for individual accolades and team success and I'd argue that the team as a whole should have achieved more through this period which hurts his reputation. Is that on his shoulders? Debatable, but there's still time for the team success to come over the next few years and he's got to be a red hot crack at the Charlie this year you would think.

I'm going to loosely define this 'era' back to 2010 and say that broadly speaking he's behind the likes of Gaz, Buddy, Fyfe, Dusty, Danger and a few others in my mind but has time to move up the pecking order.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I love the discussion of awards as if one person deciding that a 3-2-1 voting system or a 5-4-3-2-1 system is the absolute best way of measuring a player's overall value.

Thankfully we're far more capable of providing analysis that actually looks at player value across entire seasons and careers that doesn't just bucket a small number of players and assign value to all games equally, such as simply averaging all-in-one statistics over the course of a year.

For instance (not saying this is perfect either, given that e.g. his 2016 season was better as he won our B&F while only came 3rd in our 2015 B&F, and in some years rucks who are overrated by this system are rated higher e.g. 3 in the top 7 in 2019, but anyway)

Player Ratings Points, average rankings, among all players who played 12+ games in the season:

2014: 110th
2015: 4th
2016: 7th
2017: 20th
2018: 10th
2019: 8th
2020: 7th
2021: 4th
2022: 2nd
2023: 1st
2024: 1st

That may not see overly impressive but it's consistent performance in the top 10 for all but one year since 2015, where he's been fit and contributing that entire time, with significant improvement as he's entered into his peak years at his late 20's, and with no sign of it disappearing for the next year or two.

His immense fitness offers value to the team as well because he simply has not missed more than one or two games a season in the last few and basically no more than three in any year in his career. Other players ranking higher than him in those seasons did so with missing a game or three or five more, which in theory should push them down a bit over Bont in terms of pure value-add across a season.

Other players just don't maintain that level for 10+ years. Bont's peak is just as good if not better than other modern era players (his 2024 average in this system is the highest rated of any player, if you exclude 2020, since Danger and Martin's outstanding seasons both in 2017) but it's the consistent element that offers value.

Not many others players have had 9 individual seasons where they're realistically a top 10 player in the league. Other top players like Dusty have only done it for 6-7 years. Other years they may have been a top 20-25 player in output for a given year, but not top 10. Even Pendlebury with his 400 games of positive value and similar to Bont in staying exceptionally fit probably only entered the top 10 players in the league around 2010-11 and probably left it around 2017, meaning that at best it was 8-9 years, which Bont has already matched for top 10 seasons. And Pendles was probably only a top-5 player in the league for about 4 seasons 2013-16 - Bont's already matched that in his last years and has clearly outright been the top player for a two-year window, which he never matched.

It certainly is a uniquely good career and one that still has at least the final third of it to go - I fully expect Bont to get to 350 games and the next couple of seasons as a top-5 player in the league.

 

[conrad_437]

I love the discussion of awards as if one person deciding that a 3-2-1 voting system or a 5-4-3-2-1 system is the absolute best way of measuring a player's overall value.

Thankfully we're far more capable of providing analysis that actually looks at player value across entire seasons and careers that doesn't just bucket a small number of players and assign value to all games equally, such as simply averaging all-in-one statistics over the course of a year.

For instance (not saying this is perfect either, given that e.g. his 2016 season was better as he won our B&F while only came 3rd in our 2015 B&F, and in some years rucks who are overrated by this system are rated higher e.g. 3 in the top 7 in 2019, but anyway)

Player Ratings Points, average rankings, among all players who played 12+ games in the season:

2014: 110th
2015: 4th
2016: 7th
2017: 20th
2018: 10th
2019: 8th
2020: 7th
2021: 4th
2022: 2nd
2023: 1st
2024: 1st

That may not see overly impressive but it's consistent performance in the top 10 for all but one year since 2015, where he's been fit and contributing that entire time, with significant improvement as he's entered into his peak years at his late 20's, and with no sign of it disappearing for the next year or two.

His immense fitness offers value to the team as well because he simply has not missed more than one or two games a season in the last few and basically no more than three in any year in his career. Other players ranking higher than him in those seasons did so with missing a game or three or five more, which in theory should push them down a bit over Bont in terms of pure value-add across a season.

Other players just don't maintain that level for 10+ years. Bont's peak is just as good if not better than other modern era players (his 2024 average in this system is the highest rated of any player, if you exclude 2020, since Danger and Martin's outstanding seasons both in 2017) but it's the consistent element that offers value.

Not many others players have had 9 individual seasons where they're realistically a top 10 player in the league. Other top players like Dusty have only done it for 6-7 years. Other years they may have been a top 20-25 player in output for a given year, but not top 10. Even Pendlebury with his 400 games of positive value and similar to Bont in staying exceptionally fit probably only entered the top 10 players in the league around 2010-11 and probably left it around 2017, meaning that at best it was 8-9 years, which Bont has already matched for top 10 seasons. And Pendles was probably only a top-5 player in the league for about 4 seasons 2013-16 - Bont's already matched that in his last years and has clearly outright been the top player for a two-year window, which he never matched.

It certainly is a uniquely good career and one that still has at least the final third of it to go - I fully expect Bont to get to 350 games and the next couple of seasons as a top-5 player in the league.

This is an excellent post and has put a lot of what I was thinking into words. I agree with a lot of posters that Bont's absolute peak might not be at the level of Dangerfield in 2016-17 and Dusty in 2017. But there's a serious argument in his career value in the fact that he reached the argument for a top 5 player in his third season, and has only fleetingly dropped out of that discussion ever since, dealing with a hip problem over 17/18.

Taking a player for one game? It's probably Dusty or Buddy. The value of Bont's entire career though could be a completely different discussion.

And the story may be the same with Nick Daicos. The incredible value you can get with a player being at an elite, top 5-10 player in the game level from their second or third season, is absolutely immense.

 

[Cleansweep17]

This is an excellent post and has put a lot of what I was thinking into words. I agree with a lot of posters that Bont's absolute peak might not be at the level of Dangerfield in 2016-17 and Dusty in 2017. But there's a serious argument in his career value in the fact that he reached the argument for a top 5 player in his third season, and has only fleetingly dropped out of that discussion ever since, dealing with a hip problem over 17/18.

Taking a player for one game? It's probably Dusty or Buddy. The value of Bont's entire career though could be a completely different discussion.

And the story may be the same with Nick Daicos. The incredible value you can get with a player being at an elite, top 5-10 player in the game level from their second or third season, is absolutely immense.

Whilst I generally agree with you on your points. I don’t think 1 flag is enough to say he’s up there with the best of the best for “club value”

Dusty, GAJ, Buddy were the best players in their team for 2/3 flags. That’s value.

 

[conrad_437]

Whilst I generally agree with you on your points. I don’t think 1 flag is enough to say he’s up there with the best of the best for “club value”

Dusty, GAJ, Buddy were the best players in their team for 2/3 flags. That’s value.

Unfortunately, footy is a team game. He is just one man of 22. And flags are extremely hard to win, you need a lot to go right to win one.

And the great thing is, his career is not over. He probably has approximately 6 years left, 3-4 at an elite level. There's every chance with our list profile that we could be a contender across those 6 years. Who knows if he gets his second flag or not.

But to be honest, if you're speaking purely in playing terms, it shouldn't count against him that he's "only" won one. There's only so much that is in one player's control, and it's very naive to suggest otherwise. It's not like the NBA where the style of play is a bit more heliocentric - it's rare that the best handful of players are on bad teams because one player's influence is much greater than it is in the AFL.

Anyway - my point is that Bontempelli's greatness can be presented in a different way from that of, say Dusty, whose peak you could argue was up there with the very best. But you can also look back on his career and suggest that his regular season performances for many years weren't close to the the levels that he reached in the 17 season, or in the four finals series they had a deep run.

There's just many issues with using game-based voting systems, they're not perfect at measuring a player's greatness whatsoever and shouldn't be expounded as so, or held up as an "argument winner". My points in the AFLPA MVP thread weren't supporting the idea that it should be considered the most prestigious, more alluding to the fact that when you look back at previous winners, there's a serious argument that the award is the most accurate representation of what player was the best player in a given year.

Anyway, there's never really gonna be a right answer to any of these discussions, because the fun thing is that "greatness" is a truly subjective measure"!

 

[Cleansweep17]

Unfortunately, footy is a team game. He is just one man of 22. And flags are extremely hard to win, you need a lot to go right to win one.

And the great thing is, his career is not over. He probably has approximately 6 years left, 3-4 at an elite level. There's every chance with our list profile that we could be a contender across those 6 years. Who knows if he gets his second flag or not.

But to be honest, if you're speaking purely in playing terms, it shouldn't count against him that he's "only" won one. There's only so much that is in one player's control, and it's very naive to suggest otherwise. It's not like the NBA where the style of play is a bit more heliocentric - it's rare that the best handful of players are on bad teams because one player's influence is much greater than it is in the AFL.

Anyway - my point is that Bontempelli's greatness can be presented in a different way from that of, say Dusty, whose peak you could argue was up there with the very best. But you can also look back on his career and suggest that his regular season performances for many years weren't close to the the levels that he reached in the 17 season, or in the four finals series they had a deep run.

There's just many issues with using game-based voting systems, they're not perfect at measuring a player's greatness whatsoever and shouldn't be expounded as so, or held up as an "argument winner". My points in the AFLPA MVP thread weren't supporting the idea that it should be considered the most prestigious, more alluding to the fact that when you look back at previous winners, there's a serious argument that the award is the most accurate representation of what player was the best player in a given year.

Anyway, there's never really gonna be a right answer to any of these discussions, because the fun thing is that "greatness" is a truly subjective measure"!

Fair enough each to their own. It might be harsh but I believe flags especially when you are the best player in your team enhance the “greatness” of your career.

In regards to MVP, whilst yes the players that are picked have been good. Lately the same players have been getting them whilst arguably having worse seasons than they have previously.

Bont having 3 imo is ridiculous many greater players don’t even have 2. So naturally I question the validity of an award based on “vibe” where players who themselves have said don’t watch other players much.

And I also don’t doubt this “Bont deserves a Brownlow” pity party thing influences players decisions to give him the MVP. It seems like this is the first thing people mention whenever Bont is discussed. No joke, nobody says that about other players it’s weird.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Fair enough each to their own. It might be harsh but I believe flags especially when you are the best player in your team enhance the “greatness” of your career.

In regards to MVP, whilst yes the players that are picked have been good. Lately the same players have been getting them whilst arguably having worse seasons than they have previously.

Bont having 3 imo is ridiculous many greater players don’t even have 2. So naturally I question the validity of an award based on “vibe” where players who themselves have said don’t watch other players much.

And I also don’t doubt this “Bont deserves a Brownlow” pity party thing influences players decisions to give him the MVP. It seems like this is the first thing people mention whenever Bont is discussed. No joke, nobody says that about other players it’s weird.

Which player specifically had better seasons in the 2021, 2023 and 2024 seasons, if you think it is so ridiculous?

 

[Fadge]

Which player specifically had better seasons in the 2021, 2023 and 2024 seasons, if you think it is so ridiculous?

I rate Bontempelli extremely highly - #4 since the turn of the century after GAJ, Buddy and Judd.

But... there hasn't been a single season where he has been the clear cut best player across the full season, otherwise there would be a year where he would have swept all the individual awards, in the same way GAJ has a couple of times (and should have on one or two other occasions), Martin did in 2017, etc.

In 2021, Wines was a worthy Brownlow Medallist, and Bont didn't overtake him in the finals series. You could possibly also throw in Oliver and Petracca (Gary Ayres Medallist) for this year, given the number of votes they stole off each other in the individual awards.

2023 - Daicos was the clear best player through to his injury, and added two strong finals games. Any difference between him and Bont was marginal.

2024 - Take your pick of Cripps, Heeney and Daicos as the best in the comp - all arguably ahead of or at least level with Bontempelli.

 

[Mr Meow]

I rate Bontempelli extremely highly - #4 since the turn of the century after GAJ, Buddy and Judd.

But... there hasn't been a single season where he has been the clear cut best player across the full season, otherwise there would be a year where he would have swept all the individual awards, in the same way GAJ has a couple of times (and should have on one or two other occasions), Martin did in 2017, etc.

In 2021, Wines was a worthy Brownlow Medallist, and Bont didn't overtake him in the finals series.

2023 - Daicos was the clear best player through to his injury, and added two strong finals games. Any difference between him and Bont was marginal.

2024 - Take your pick of Cripps, Heeney and Daicos as the best in the comp - all arguably ahead of or at least level with Bontempelli.

If you win 2 of the big 3 I'd count that as indisputably the best player (maybe safer to say midfielder) in the comp: Player MVP and one of the other 2 (Brownlow, Coach Association ) is a combo you can't really argue with.

That gives Ablett 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2013, as well as 2014 where he was a mile in front until his shoulder injury. Then 3 other seasons where he was maybe top 3 (I don't care who you are, you aren't winning coaches or Brownlow award in the 2011/2012 Suns).

Bont has had a handful of top 3-5 seasons but not the few where he was indisputably the best player in the comp.

 

[Cleansweep17]

If you win 2 of the big 3 I'd count that as indisputably the best player (maybe safer to say midfielder) in the comp: Player MVP and one of the other 2 (Brownlow, Coach Association ) is a combo you can't really argue with.

That gives Ablett 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2013, as well as 2014 where he was a mile in front until his shoulder injury. Then 3 other seasons where he was maybe top 3 (I don't care who you are, you aren't winning coaches or Brownlow award in the 2011/2012 Suns).

Bont has had a handful of top 3-5 seasons but not the few where he was indisputably the best player in the comp.

Of the H&A season yeah

 

[Cleansweep17]

Which player specifically had better seasons in the 2021, 2023 and 2024 seasons, if you think it is so ridiculous?

2021: Oliver

2023: Cripps/Daicos

2024: Cripps/Daicos/Heeney

 

[Fadge]

2021: Oliver

2023: Cripps/Daicos

2024: Cripps/Daicos/Heeney

Cripps better than Bontempelli in 2023?

You might want to watch some footy before commenting.

 

[TheScriptorWL]

2021: Oliver

2023: Cripps/Daicos

2024: Cripps/Daicos/Heeney

2021 and 2023 I fully disagree with. Bontempelli was Incredible in both those years and 95% of supporters had him as the best player in the game. Melbourne as a team were elite in 2021. But Bont allowed us to dominant early in that year, just off his own boot and really before the rest of our squad got settled into the season.

2024 Is probably fair. Given we have had a few other midfielders stand up and a better spread of contributors all around.

 

[Mr Meow]

Of the H&A season yeah

Of the overall season (H&A plus finals) Ablett was the undisputed best midfielder in the comp for the 5 seasons I mentioned (2007, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014). He didn't play finals in 2013 or 2014 but no midfielder overtook him in his absence from that format. You can give top 5s for each of those seasons, in order, if there are any you would like to dispute.

 

[Mr Meow]

Cripps better than Bontempelli in 2023?

You might want to watch some footy before commenting.

It's staggering how inaccurate he can be with seasons as recent as last year, which is why it's entirely ludicrous for him to undertake the guesswork he applies to 2007-2014 when he barely even watched anything. Ask him for his best finals players and overall players from each season and you get some hilarious answers that amount to "well it couldn't be Ablett!!!!".

 

[Fadge]

It's staggering how inaccurate he can be with seasons as recent as last year, which is why it's entirely ludicrous for him to undertake the guesswork he applies to 2007-2014 when he barely even watched anything. Ask him for his best finals players and overall players from each season and you get some hilarious answers that amount to "well it couldn't be Ablett!!!!".

I'm very keen to see his 'analysis' in response to your above question...

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm very keen to see his 'analysis' in response to your above question...

He's furiously investigating afltables to learn which players were actually around during said seasons. Wiki has the AA teams to be fair so he could start there, but I really shouldn't be doing his homework for him.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Of the overall season (H&A plus finals) Ablett was the undisputed best midfielder in the comp for the 5 seasons I mentioned (2007, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014). He didn't play finals in 2013 or 2014 but no midfielder overtook him in his absence from that format. You can give top 5s for each of those seasons, in order, if there are any you would like to dispute.

He only won all 3 awards (Brownlow, Coaches, MVP) in 1 season once. That’s right only once. That’s the only “undisputed” season by definition as everybody has to agree.

Despite not being a mid I’d argue Buddy did better in 2008 and 2014 considering he got 2 Colemans, 2 AAs and 1 flag but whatever if doing nothing at the suns beats that all power to you.

So like I said these awards are ONLY for H&A that’s it. Don’t get confused thinking it’s for the whole season ya goose.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It's staggering how inaccurate he can be with seasons as recent as last year, which is why it's entirely ludicrous for him to undertake the guesswork he applies to 2007-2014 when he barely even watched anything. Ask him for his best finals players and overall players from each season and you get some hilarious answers that amount to "well it couldn't be Ablett!!!!".

At least you finally admitted Cotchin beat peak Ablett in 2012. Made some progress

 

[Mr Meow]

He only won all 3 awards (Brownlow, Coaches, MVP) in 1 season once. That’s right only once. That’s the only “undisputed” season by definition as everybody has to agree.

Despite not being a mid I’d argue Buddy did better in 2008 and 2014 considering he got 2 Colemans, 2 AAs and 2 flags but whatever if doing nothing at the suns beats that all power to you.

So like I said these awards are ONLY for H&A that’s it. Don’t get confused thinking it’s for the whole season ya goose.

In other words you couldn't name one midfielder that had a better season or was a better player for the 5 years I mentioned. You had the chance and could've even guessed. I sort of respect that you withdrew though to save embarrassment. You might even be evolving.

I'm more than comfortable with Buddy and Ablett being 1-2 in whichever order a couple of seasons if we move outside of the midfield. In terms of this discussion with Bontempelli he are discussing his yearly status among midfield peers.

 

[Lingsface]

I think he is very close to Dangerfield level now. He has been amazing since early days, this year could get him into the top 5 of this century.