List Mgmt. 2024 Trade & List Management Thread - Part 3

[giantroo]

Spoiler: 2024 Draft Picks

 

[perplexed]

such as?

It was in the same sentence. Long term planning. Negotiation. Strategy. Ruthlessness.

 

[Merlin007]

It was in the same sentence. Long term planning. Negotiation. Strategy. Ruthlessness.

Oh right. Now I get it. Like the times Rawling stared down St Kilda to keep Xerri, now one of the premiere rucks, or when he walked Ben Brown and spared us 5 years of a KPF on one leg.

More of that. Gotcha.

Colby Cheer Squad will be able to use them as case studies in the curriculum for his Masters in List Management

 

[perplexed]

Is there a list management school somewhere? Can you earn a degree in recruiting? Perhaps a masters in trade week? A PhD in Category B?

Qualified in the sense that they have all the requisite skills to do the job. We seem to make the same mistakes every year.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

So they just had to hold firm and we folded. This is the pitfall of getting someone like Clarkson actively involved in the recruitment process. It compromises the ability of the people who have to haggle deals to have all the tools at their disposal to get the best outcome. So I am not blaming Rawlings for these deals. I doubt Swans or Dogs felt we would walk away from what they asked, and we didn't.

Just maybe we did get the best out come. We needed maturity and got the best that was available With the bonus of potential good small forward for virtually a 2nd round pick with still plenty of scope to haggle with pick 2 and future 1st if we choose. I have no doubt we did the right thing long term at a good cost.

I suspect you are right, pupstar, and Tas has it a bit wrong when he says the other clubs held firm and we folded. I suspect we held firm and they folded. Especially the Swans, who wanted pick 25 for Parker alone and we ended up getting him and Konstanty for 44. It was obvious to all in Sunbury that 44 was getting the deal done right from the first day of trade but we scored bonus steak knives in the end. Daniel for 25 was always debatable but I suspect we are comfortable with that trade, we just held out to the very end in the hope that we might get a fire sale. So Tas is perhaps right that we folded on that one.

Regardless, the club as a whole wanted these players and we got them. And when day 2 of the draft happens, I expect there will not be a quality KPP available at the picks we gave up.

 

[perplexed]

Oh right. Now I get it. Like the times Rawling stared down St Kilda to keep Xerri, now one of the premiere rucks, or when he walked Ben Brown and spared us 5 years of a KPF on one leg.

More of that. Gotcha.

Colby Cheer Squad will be able to use them as case studies in the curriculum for his Masters in List Management

Rawlings didn't stare down St Kilda, he was willing to let X go, but for a higher draft pick. We were lucky, he had just signed CCJ thinking he could ruck, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

On that topic, how many favours has he done Richmond over the years? The CCJ trade. Chucking Taz into it. Giving up a pick for Biggie. How is he being repaid this year?

 

[2OLD 2SLOW]

Is there a list management school somewhere? Can you earn a degree in recruiting? Perhaps a masters in trade week? A PhD in Category B?

Exactly. Just hire this guy ...

 

[Chip Scab1]

Rawlings didn't stare down St Kilda, he was willing to let X go, but for a higher draft pick. We were lucky, he had just signed CCJ thinking he could ruck, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

On that topic, how many favours has he done Richmond over the years? The CCJ trade. Chucking Taz into it. Giving up a pick for Biggie. How is he being repaid this year?

We don't really know yet in this stage-managed fiasco, but at face value you're correct. All the goodwill we thought we had has amounted to zero (good learnings have been our only wins so far). But, we continue to overpay in $, picks and contract length so, probably nothing!

 

[shinboner magic]

We have pick 2

We have all the power in this negotiation.
Either keep pick 2 and trade in a f2 then pick a state league or slider at our 3rd pick

Or those dogs can pay up for pick 2 with 2 picks inside 15

 

[perplexed]

I suspect you are right, pupstar, and Tas has it a bit wrong when he says the other clubs held firm and we folded. I suspect we held firm and they folded. Especially the Swans, who wanted pick 25 for Parker alone and we ended up getting him and Konstanty for 44. It was obvious to all in Sunbury that 44 was getting the deal done right from the first day of trade but we scored bonus steak knives in the end. Daniel for 25 was always debatable but I suspect we are comfortable with that trade, we just held out to the very end in the hope that we might get a fire sale. So Tas is perhaps right that we folded on that one.

Regardless, the club as a whole wanted these players and we got them. And when day 2 of the draft happens, I expect there will not be a quality KPP available at the picks we gave up.

The Daniel one was weak. I don't think WB had any intention to keep him, we should have been prepared to test that and walk away.

That trade has weakened our negotiating position and the value of pick 2 - which was always the main game this trade period. Four list spots, one pick. Why would you put yourself in that position when there is likely to be few suitors for the pick and one trading partner holds all the cards?

This is the opposite of 2022. We already had more picks than list spots when Brady decided to trade a future pick into the draft (later used on Brayden George). Rather than pushing fringe players to the rookie list, we ended up forced to dump picks in lobsided trades.

 

[hilly]

Exactly. Just hire this guy ...

View attachment 2157089

LOL. I remember him wanting us to trade our first pick for then free agent NDS..

 

[hilly]

Oh right. Now I get it. Like the times Rawling stared down St Kilda to keep Xerri, now one of the premiere rucks, or when he walked Ben Brown and spared us 5 years of a KPF on one leg.

More of that. Gotcha.

Colby Cheer Squad will be able to use them as case studies in the curriculum for his Masters in List Management

I thought these were 'not just Rawlings' decisions? Or just for the mistakes?

On this year's trade period, I didn't hate 43 (44?) to Sydney but suspect a future 3rd would have also got it done.

 

[Devski]

Is there a list management school somewhere? Can you earn a degree in recruiting? Perhaps a masters in trade week? A PhD in Category B?

Honestly we should get someone with a data analytics background and play Money Ball.

How often does Caleb Daniel get on base?

 

[krakouers]

Exactly. Just hire this guy ...

View attachment 2157089

Now if it was Adam Cooney, I’d believe it…
But they don’t give out Masters for being a Knob

 

[Blightys Barrel]

Kinnear Beatson was an ex-Phys Ed teacher and Stephen Wells played footy for Southport back in the early 1980’s. Probably the best 2 in the last 25 years in this role. So one does not have to play at the highest level to be a great list and recruit guy.

There is a combination of factors at play here beyond being a gifted and talented junior. All those hours on the road, watching tape, speaking with coaches, parents etc.

Was at a state junior AFL carnival (NSW) a few years back and was next to a Swans recruiter. My son was one of those kids who developed early and for a while had a dream of playing AFL. So after watching games all week, I knew he would not make it after seeing the next level. I asked the Swans guy who caught his eye. Callum Mills looked OK he said. Jacob Hopper and Matt Kennedy were strong country boys and would be looked at. There was one other guy as well Lachie Swinton. He chose Rugby and earnt some Wallaby caps. 300 juniors running around and playing multiple matches in a week. The Swans recruiter played for Stuart in the SANFL for a number of years and went all right.

 

[Bashnek]

Honestly we should get someone with a data analytics background and play Money Ball.

How often does Caleb Daniel get on base?

wasn't luff meant to be a data guy?

 

[Karanicolas]

Someone who is good at both football and data analytics and is available … https://www.linkedin.com/in/dean-wa...re_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app

 

[hilly]

wasn't luff meant to be a data guy?

Yep. I still prefer the eye test but there's no doubt data has a role to play.

 

[speedy]

Is anyone truely happy with this list build?

I feel like we have gone all in, pre-flop with a K10 (hope I got the poker analogy right?). We have brought in experience to guide the kids, but do we actually have enough good kids? We don’t have enough “young talls”, that is for certain.

A lot of our unproven kids really have to turn into A graders, or at least B’s. And we somehow have to nail this draft with 1 pick in the top 50-60.

We don’t have enough to show for finishing bottom 2 in the last 5 years.

 

[Devington]

Is anyone truely happy with this list build?

I feel like we have gone all in, pre-flop with a K10 (hope I got the poker analogy right?). We have brought in experience to guide the kids, but do we actually have enough good kids? We don’t have enough “young talls”, that is for certain.

A lot of our unproven kids really have to turn into A graders, or at least B’s. And we somehow have to nail this draft with 1 pick in the top 50-60.

We don’t have enough to show for finishing bottom 2 in the last 5 years.

Hmm. I think the top end talent we brought in during that period is, overall, great, plus the 5th year of that shitness hasn't seen us draft anyone yet.

That said i get mildly aggrieved at the amount of elite talent that was denied to us during that period. From Judas doing his thing, to father-sons and academy picks. It does rankle a bit.

As to the list build as a whole it's a bit depressing, but mostly because of the absolute dearth of talent and reliability from the older cohort, which is the snowballed shit sandwich that resulted from our peak being "pretty good" and then spending the entirety of this decade shedding all the quality senior players while the club exploded time and time again with false starts. So then here we are, finally admitting that our senior leaders just aren't getting the job done well enough to give the kids a proper chance.

So am I happy with the list build? No. There are really good aspects to it but overall it's still messy. The blame game is where it gets really bloody murky though, because how many of our current list issues are direct results of previous regimes shitting the bed and us having to fix that, versus the current regime being outright to blame?

 

[DuckYeah]

Is anyone truely happy with this list build?

I feel like we have gone all in, pre-flop with a K10 (hope I got the poker analogy right?). We have brought in experience to guide the kids, but do we actually have enough good kids? We don’t have enough “young talls”, that is for certain.

A lot of our unproven kids really have to turn into A graders, or at least B’s. And we somehow have to nail this draft with 1 pick in the top 50-60.

We don’t have enough to show for finishing bottom 2 in the last 5 years.

Mate, constantly read this “we need to keep rebuilding” from you. Its done. We gave enough talent.

From half back to half forward are all bloody midfielders with 3 corner stone talls.

We are missing a couple of items, another half back, a genuine small (but we may have 2 available in 2025 and may be bloody rippers) we need a couple of talls to develop.

The list is done. We flat out under performed this year, embarrassing. Leadership was identified and has been sort for fixing.

Im over this “rebuild” its 90% done. Enough is enough

 

[speedy]

Mate, constantly read this “we need to keep rebuilding” from you. Its done. We gave enough talent.

From half back to half forward are all bloody midfielders with 3 corner stone talls.

We are missing a couple of items, another half back, a genuine small (but we may have 2 available in 2025 and may be bloody rippers) we need a couple of talls to develop.

The list is done. We flat out under performed this year, embarrassing. Leadership was identified and has been sort for fixing.

Im over this “rebuild” it’s 90% done. Enough is enough

The rebuild is done or are you done with the rebuild? After 5 years of this misery, I want premierships. Not just to be competitive.

 

[Shinboner1]

Is anyone truely happy with this list build?

I feel like we have gone all in, pre-flop with a K10 (hope I got the poker analogy right?). We have brought in experience to guide the kids, but do we actually have enough good kids? We don’t have enough “young talls”, that is for certain.

A lot of our unproven kids really have to turn into A graders, or at least B’s. And we somehow have to nail this draft with 1 pick in the top 50-60.

We don’t have enough to show for finishing bottom 2 in the last 5 years.

How do we expect talls to get a game when we've now got darling, larkey and teakle up forward?
Corr, Comben and Logue down back?
For me its more of an upgrade of the best 22 which is needed than actually getting more kids into the team.
If those kids are upgrades then sure no worries, but at the moment they wont be.
Happy to bring in some quality players via the draft and actually have them develop in the VFL without the pressure to immediately play best 22 football.

 

[speedy]

How do we expect talls to get a game when we've now got darling, larkey and teakle up forward?
Corr, Comben and Logue down back?
For me its more of an upgrade of the best 22 which is needed than actually getting more kids into the team.
If those kids are upgrades then sure no worries, but at the moment they wont be.
Happy to bring in some quality players via the draft and actually have them develop in the VFL without the pressure to immediately play best 22 football.

Darling and Corr wont be a part of our next premiership team. Or Parker for that matter. And more than likely mini x won’t be either. All of them need replacing. Kids are our best chance, because we sure as hell don’t attract free agents.

 

[Spud11]

Darling and Corr wont be a part of our next premiership team. Or Parker for that matter. And more than likely mini x won’t be either. All of them need replacing. Kids are our best chance, because we sure as hell don’t attract free agents.

They all could be. Look at how quickly hawthorn improved last year. Let’s not put a ceiling on what we can achieve.

Go team

 

[DuckYeah]

The rebuild is done or are you done with the rebuild? After 5 years of this misery, I want premierships. Not just to be competitive.

And you are not making up a premiership team strictly from the draft knackers, the rest can come from FA and trades