Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Zidane98]

At least we can dismiss Macgregor as a legitimate source. He's a Russian disinformation shill.

 

[wannabejack]

In the 30 years since its signing, the Budapest Memorandum has never managed to guarantee Ukraine’s security, including in the last 10 years of the Russo-Ukrainian war, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said on Dec. 5.

“This document never worked a single day,” Zelenskyy said in a video address.

“And because of this, everyone in the world now knows that a mere signature from any state, or assurances or promises of security, is not enough. Effective guarantees are needed, namely real alliances and a realistic security foundation within the country.”

 

[Smeg Head]

Yep. Russia must pay a heavy price for Russiafication, imposing fascism on Ukraine.


Going forward none of Ukraine's security agreements will involve Russia. They can't as they simply will not be honored.

Territorial dismemberment has to be the long term answer.

They are also committing genocide of many different minority groups that live in 'Russia'

 

[Zidane98]

Territorial dismemberment has to be the long term answer.

They are also committing genocide of many different minority groups that live in 'Russia'

That may happen naturally if Putin continues to run the show like the dictator he is.


Chechyna, Dagestan etc may want to break free again. Siberian separatists are around. Japan will be looking to take back the Kuril islands.


Plenty of Kursk / Belgorod residents seem to want to rejoin Ukraine (they were taken off Ukraine in the early days of the USSR and transferred to Russia SSR).

 

[Mobbs]

[emoji1255] In 2025, over 30,000 DeepStrike combat drones will be delivered to Ukrainian units, partially funded by international partners investing in Ukraine’s defense industry. These next-gen UAVs can operate autonomously at long ranges and strike enemy targets with high precision.

(A post off TG)

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mobbs]

Another memorable statement from Lavrov:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov claims Russia isn’t attacking anyone: "It’s the U.S. attacking us through the Ukrainian regime."

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Mobbs]

Some interesting data shared by Siberian Realities news outlet:

More than 3,000 residents of the Kemerovo Region have died in the war against Ukraine . Such data was presented at a meeting of the regional government by the head of the "Defenders of the Fatherland" foundation Larisa Konysheva.

"We are supporting more than 3,000 families of the deceased, and 1,416 veterans who have already returned," Sota quotes Konysheva as saying, adding that, according to official Rosstat data, the number of men in the Kemerovo region, including infants and pensioners, was 1.16 million people as of July 2024.

Earlier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anna Tsivileva, speaking at a round table in the State Duma, said that relatives of those who took part in the invasion of Ukraine had submitted 48,000 DNA tests for identification. This only concerns those who are currently listed as missing.

In response, the chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee, Andrei Kartapolov, asked Tsivileva not to use these figures, calling the information “closed” and “sensitive.”

[emoji736]The Ministry of Defense does not officially disclose the number of losses of the Russian army in Ukraine. The number of killed participants in the invasion (including mobilized, contract soldiers, PMC mercenaries, conscripts, and volunteers) is regularly counted by journalists from Mediazona and the BBC Russian Service, but they only take into account those deaths that are confirmed by open sources. According to such data, as of November 29 of this year, the losses of Russian troops in Ukraine amounted to 80,973 people.

[emoji736]More than half of the dead – 52% – are people who were not connected with the army before the war. Journalists note that the number of dead volunteers (those who signed a contract after the war began) is growing – now their share is 22% of the total number of confirmed losses.

[emoji736] Among the regions, the leaders in terms of the number of deaths (per capita) are Tuva, Buryatia and Altai. The lowest mortality rates are observed in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

[emoji91]Follow @sibrealii

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[Zidane98]

Some interesting data shared by Siberian Realities news outlet:



On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

Do you have many contacts in Siberia?

Is there still separatist movements?

They get a pretty crap deal in Siberia. State spends bugger all on infrastructure in Siberia but earns the majority of natural resource income there. Vastly over represented in conscription to war.

 

[jatz14]

So how do you explain the growing numbers of Ukrainian soldiers abandoning their positions and refusing to fight?

How do you explain the recruitment crisis in Ukraine, and the demands by its US masters to lower the conscription age?

If you believe that the US does anything at all in the name of "democracy" or "freedom", then you are living in a parallel universe.

How do you explain that Ukraine hasn't lowered the conscription age, if the US is telling them to, and all their soldiers have run away?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chief]

Haven't seen a single stop sign.

Putin's the biggest manufacturer.

"Ima blow up the bad bombs on you!"

"You just wait."

"I really will!"

"That's it! It's happening!"

"Yeah... well it will happen NOW!"

"OK maybe NOW."

 

[IlovethePies]

^ Keep rolling the dice then.
Keep betting that Putin won't react to the next red line the US and NATO cross.

Seems very contradictory. You and all like minded fellow posters on this thread characterise Putin as an insane empire aggrandising sociopath committed to mass murder, contemporary Hitler etc

Then you put forward the self-contradictory argument that Putin is too scared to use a nuclear weapon. On the one hand,according to you, Putin is a modern day Hitler, a ruthless mass murderer who will stop at no level of violence (and there is no doubt Hitler would have used a nuclear weapon if he had possessed one. Afterall, a so called "democrat named Harry Truman did.)

On the other hand, Putin is a "coward who will never dare to use a nuclear weapon".

You can't have it both ways, and still make sense.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

So basically russia gets what they want. Ukraine gets nothing.
People (Ukrainians) are currently leaving the “new regions” and people from russia are moving in “attracted be higher wages and lower house mortgages”. So these “independent” territories eventually vote to join russia.
russia use these new territories to launch their next war against Ukraine. NATO sit back and watches because Ukraine isn’t a NATO member and whatever treaty was signed by russia is ignored again.

Moldova will be next

 

[IlovethePies]

Another memorable statement from Lavrov:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov claims Russia isn’t attacking anyone: "It’s the U.S. attacking us through the Ukrainian regime."

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

Lavrov is lying by saying that Russia isn't attacking anyone, because clearly it is attacking Ukraine.

He is telling the truth when he says that the US is attacking Russia through the Ukrainian regime.

Clearly Lavrov is an agent of Russian propaganda. But even agents of propaganda can at times make an accurate statement.

Example: Biden said before the US election that Trump was a fascist. This was a truthful statement.

 

[Mobbs]

Do you have many contacts in Siberia?

Is there still separatist movements?

They get a pretty crap deal in Siberia. State spends bugger all on infrastructure in Siberia but earns the majority of natural resource income there. Vastly over represented in conscription to war.

The majority of my contacts are in Siberia - around the largest centres eg Novosobirsk and Krasonoyarsk, and the towns in-between.

But they try to avoid mentioning the war, and I don't nag about it. Unfortunately I cannot be a source of information re their thoughts on this unless someone decides to forget the danger and go on a rant.

In general day-to-day issues, the biggest complaint I hear about is the condition of the roads.

 

[wannabejack]

Lavrov is lying by saying that Russia isn't attacking anyone, because clearly it is attacking Ukraine.

He is telling the truth when he says that the US is attacking Russia through the Ukrainian regime.

Clearly Lavrov is an agent of Russian propaganda. But even agents of propaganda can at times make an accurate statement.

Example: Biden said before the US election that Trump was a fascist. This was a truthful statement.

Lavrov is telling the truth if you agree with him but he’s lying if you disagree with him?

 

[Zidane98]

Lavrov is telling the truth if you agree with him but he’s lying if you disagree with him?

 

[CD Xbow]

Lavrov is telling the truth if you agree with him but he’s lying if you disagree with him?

Rule #18 of a happy life - "Understand that Lavrov always lies."

I'd like to see a 'Lie off' between USA and Russia, bit like the Rocky movie, Trump representing USA and Lavrov the glorious motherland. Who would win?

 

[IlovethePies]

Lavrov is telling the truth if you agree with him but he’s lying if you disagree with him?

No. The truth does exist independently of whether you or I agree with it.

 

[IlovethePies]

The majority of my contacts are in Siberia - around the largest centres eg Novosobirsk and Krasonoyarsk, and the towns in-between.

But they try to avoid mentioning the war, and I don't nag about it. Unfortunately I cannot be a source of information re their thoughts on this unless someone decides to forget the danger and go on a rant.

In general day-to-day issues, the biggest complaint I hear about is the condition of the roads.

Finally, something progressive from you.

You're acknowledging that there is plenty of opposition to the war and to Putin in Russia.

 

[IlovethePies]

Rule #18 of a happy life - "Understand that Lavrov always lies."

I'd like to see a 'Lie off' between USA and Russia, bit like the Rocky movie, Trump representing USA and Lavrov the glorious motherland. Who would win?

a) Your definition of "happiness" is extremely narrow.
b) Biden would be just as good a competitor as Trump in a US vs Russia "lie off"

 

[Mobbs]

View attachment thewarwearetryingtostop.mp4

 

[Mobbs]

Finally, something progressive from you.

You're acknowledging that there is plenty of opposition to the war and to Putin in Russia.

What the actual ****?

 

[CD Xbow]

View attachment 2182941

He really is farcical. Mobbs, do you know what ordinary Russians think about him?

 

[Mobbs]

He really is farcical. Mobbs, do you know what ordinary Russians think about him?

Sorry I laughed ... I thought you were talking about someone else for a moment!

In response to your question - no, not even once has his name come up. As mentioned, I rarely broach the topic, but a couple of times Navalnyy and Zelensky came up - but not much to report there either.

 

[IlovethePies]

What the actual ****?

Well in previous posts, you were in terms of the logic of your arguments advocating a NATO nuclear strike on Russia. You denied it, but it was where your logic led, regardless of whether you were conscious of it.

Now you acknowledge that there is mass opposition in Russia to the war.

This means that there is a base for an anti war movement in Russia.

Likewise, in Ukraine, there is mass opposition to the war reflected in the rapid rise of desertions from the front, and the forced conscription of young men into the Ukrainian army.

So the development of an anti war movement linking up the working population in Ukraine and Russia against this war and in opposition to the governments imposing it, is a practical possiblity, and of immediate urgency.