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Did he need to be?
We had another 2 players producing output similar to the in-game numbers Martin did.
If Chapman wasn’t doing it, Johnson was.
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Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
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Did he need to be?
We had another 2 players producing output similar to the in-game numbers Martin did.
If Chapman wasn’t doing it, Johnson was.
Jhye Clark 13
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Geez. Richmond were a team filled with high draft picks and talent that had been together for a while.
GC were a team of kids and rejects from other clubs. In their 4th season they were on the verge of making finals before Ablett injured his shoulder. Iirc they were 8-2 (don't quote me on it) and he was the sole reason for it.
Let's not rewrite history and pretend Martin was in a side devoid of talent just to make him appear better than he actually was.
Sttew
Hall of Famer
On your reckoning Bobby Skilton is not a great, despite winning 3 Brownlows
I wonder why he hasn't made a Ron Barrassi finals breakdown either.
If you KNOW your guy was the best finals player ever, you should be able to commentate on the rest of the top 10 and how far off they were.
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Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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Martin won't even be in the top 10 Brownlow votes getters in a year or 2.
So a lot is being pinned on 3 brilliant finals series when his side was dominant, and 5 so-so ones when his side wasn't.
Well considering your player ratings only started in 2012, you are only talking bout the last dozen seasons.
And only a few deluded Tiger supporters look to exclude 95% of players careers and determine who the GOAT is based on their best 6 finals!
But even using the criteria of best 6 finals, Dusty would be down the pack.
Gaz Snr kicked the same amount of goals (27) as Dusty did in all 16 of his finals in just the 1989 finals series.
Gaz Snr avg fecking 19d, 10mks and 6.7 goals in the 1989 finals - soz but that is a peak that makes Dusty look mediocre.
Wayne Carey went alright in 90s. The Ducks top 6 finals - avg 25dis, 10mks, 5.5goals
32d, 10mrks 4 goals
24d, 14mks, 6 goals
23d, 10mks, 7 goals
24d, 8mks, 5 goals
24d, 11mks, 6 goals
22d, 9mks, 5 goals
Buddy would have a better top 6, as would GAJ etc.
Dusty's best 6 finals don't measure up to the actual GOAT contenders best finals.
But yes, Dusty was the best finals player of the 2010s and perhaps the 3rd best Richmond player of the 2010s...nothing to be sneezed at.
To get any sort of a handle on that, let's compare with other comparable players since player ratings commenced, their best 6 finals(remembering Dusty had 9 finals with 7 or more coaches votes.)
We have seen Dusty's best 6 average a totally insane 29.3. Why I say that is insane is because of the 2,691 finals played by individual players since the ratings begun, I am pretty sure not more than 5 or 6 have ever rated above the AVERAGE of Dusty's best 6. So try to get your head around that and see if you can bring youself to comment favourably on it. I won't hold my breath.
We have seen the best 6 of Pendlebury's last 18 finals average 19.06 player ratings. But fair enough, he played quite a number of strong finals before those ratings came into being. We cannot know what he rated in those.
So let's look at some great players whose best 6 finals have been captured by the ratings system.
Dangerfield: 18.5, 20.5, 24.0, 27.4, 27.2, 22.0 - does not even have a single final as high as the average of Martin's best 6 finals. Average of PD best 6 = 23.5
Bontempelli: 28.0, 27.0, 22.6, 19.8, 24.7 - only has 5 strong finals of 13 so will take those. Again, does not have a final rated above the AVERAGE of Martin's best 6 finals. Average of MB's best 5 finals = 24.4
Neal: 26.8, 25.9, 24.2, 25.0, 17.3, 21.5 - Again no final as high as Dusty's top 6 final average. LN best 6 finals average = 23.5
Petracca: 17.1, 28.8, 20.1, 22.0, 16.8, 16.7 - same story.
You are welcome to nominate any other player you like whose best finals were captured by the ratings system. There is nobody within a bull's roar of Dusty's best 2 finals, his best 6 finals, his best 9 finals, or his overall finals average. And there is absolutely no reason to believe anybody ever has been. Remebering, this is completely consistent with finals coaches votes.
Meteoric Rise if Martin is the UNDISPUTED best finals player, can you break down the rankings of these players for me (just a sample, I'm not pretending it's comprehensive):
KB, Carey, Matthews, Ayres, Brereton, Barrassi, Coventry, Dunstall, either Ablett, Hodge, Kennedy, Selwood, Judd, Pendlebury, Kernahan, Matera, McLeod, Mitchell, Pavlich, Chapman, Goodes, Black.
Along with Martin, you should be able to give us a top 25 from that list. Then we will have an idea on who cracks the top 5, 10 and 20 etc.
Just have a go. Anyone with expertise on the UNDISPUTED greatest finals player of all time will be able to comprehensively dissect some other players and their ranking.
KB, Carey, Matthews, Ayres, Brereton, Barrassi, Coventry, Dunstall, either Ablett, Hodge, Kennedy, Selwood, Judd, Pendlebury, Kernahan, Matera, McLeod, Mitchell, Pavlich, Chapman, Goodes, Black.
Along with Martin, you should be able to give us a top 25 from that list. Then we will have an idea on who cracks the top 5, 10 and 20 etc.
Just have a go. Anyone with expertise on the UNDISPUTED greatest finals player of all time will be able to comprehensively dissect some other players and their ranking.
It would just kill any of you guys to admit Dusty's finals record is so far ahead of any player he can be properly compared to that it is almost certain he has the best collection of finals performances of any player in history.Why don't you pick a basket of the best players you know of to take the field in the last 13 years since ratings begun. Take all their best 6 finals ratings put together then average them. Then see if that average is above Dusty's 29.3 from his best 6.
Then try your best to give us a fair comment about the outcome of that comparison.
Meanwhile, I am going for a swim.
It's not killing me to recognise finals started before 2012, or 2016 when Ayres votes began, but it does seem to bother you.
Why don't you pick a basket of the best players you know of to take the field in the last 13 years since ratings begun. Take all their best 6 finals ratings put together then average them. Then see if that average is above Dusty's 29.3.
Then try your best to give us a fair comment about the outcome of that comparison.
- May 5, 2016
- 52,566
- 59,526
- AFL Club
- Geelong
Yea Gary Ablett Jr was famous for his 2007 transformation where his teammates sat him down and told him how he could be better than Chris Judd if he was more about himself. That’s what I remember about the anecdotes I’ve read from Geelong’s turnaround in that era.
Another notable aspect of his career was how he had the Suns poised for finals in their fourth season when he got injured and then they missed out when he didn’t play another game.
Coincidence, obviously, as he made them worse when he was in the side.
A typically quality contribution from the head of the paddle boat.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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Career averages : Martin
Disposals : 24.2
Goals: 1.1
Dangerfield is 23.5 and 1.0
Cousins 22.6 and 0.8
Judd 22.9 and 0.8
Black 23.5 and 0.5
Voss 21.3 and 0.8
Petracca 23.3 and 1.0
Bontempelli 23.9 and 1.0
Crawford 22.4 and 0.7
Bartel 22.8 and 0.7
So you mean to tell me that Martin got more of the ball AND kicked more goals than all those superstars across the entirety of their careers? How can that possibly be?
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Terrible analysis, for starters Dangerfield has already played 2 seasons extra.
Did you actually just try and pretend he had more goals and disposals than some of these players without using totals?
Try total Brownlow votes, Coaches votes, B&F victories, AA selections, TOTAL goals, goal assists and disposals if you want a more sophisticated analysis of midfielders peak, consistency and longevity. Martin will still beat out several on your list doing this. But at least it won't be a joke of an analysis.
Averages are protected if you retire earlier.
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Poor Tigers pretend footy didn't exist from 1981 until 2017.
He is miles behind greats from earlier periods in terms of great finals (and finals series).
Even one of their own, KB, in 1980 kicked 21 goals and had 60 disposals in 3 finals game (an avg of 20 and 7gls).
And Dusty has a career H&A record that doesn't stack up with 2010 beats let alone previous champions. Only 2 BnFs and only 5 seasons where he managed a player rating above 14 (that is nothing special at all).
A modern comparison is L.Neale - 6 BnFs, 7 seasons where he had a player rating of above 14, Neale has 2 Brownlow's
Laughable that they keep pushing him.
Dusty was the best finals player of the 2010s and perhaps the 3rd best Richmond player of the 2010s.
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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Player ratings have their flaws, but they cannot be analysed by comparing for example FF ratings to midfielder. You have to compare like for like positionally.
It’s why they recently introduced a system of rating the best players on how they have performed against other players in the exact same position. So for example if Mason Cox played 50 minutes in the ruck and rated 7.0, and Gawn played 100 minutes and rated 14.0.. the raw score ratings we can see would have them 7 v 14, but the updated way players are ranked by Champion Data would have them equal.
It’s why you’ll often hear them say “when xyz player is stationed forward they are the 3rd highest rated player in the game” - so it’s providing an exact analysis of player v player in the exact same position for the exact same time.
They’ve done this because pure midfielders accumulate more ratings points because they’re involved in a much higher number of actions each game.
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Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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If this is all you've got - a hybrid midfielder forward being an excellent finals player the 3 seasons his team were dominant, but not the 5 seasons where they weren't - you're actually making a case against Martin.
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Nobody is comparing Dusty to a FF in terms of ratings.
MR loves his ratings as they are meant to reflect impact on the game, not just a collection of busy stats like other ratings (hence a goal kicker like Dusty is rewarded in player ratings).
Problem being that Dusty only had 4 seasons with an avg rating above 15 for a season...that is well behind the absolute champions since 2012 who consistently dominate seasons of football.,
So MR then runs with his little finals gimmick using PRs (nobody is disputing that Dusty is 2010s best finals player).
But those finals series and top six games are not as good as what guys like KB, Duck, GAZ have produced.
Dusty best finals player of the 2010s, but using that to try and argue he is up there in the GOAT conversation is laughable.
Keeping it to midfielders
Totals (Goals and Disposals):
Martin is 7320 and 338
Pendlebury* is 10301 and 201
R.Harvey is 9656 and 215
B.Harvey is 9213 and 518
Bartlett is 9151 and 778
Ablett is 8896 and 445
Selwood is 8746 and 175
S.Mitchell is 8687 and 71
Dangerfield* is 7908 and 335
Hodge is 7589 and 194
Black is 7580 and 171
Matthews is 7374 and 915
So you mean to tell me that Martin got less of the ball AND/OR kicked less goals than all those midfielders across the entirety of their careers? How can that possibly be?
Remember Dusty's own coaches only believed him to be Richmond's best player of the season twice in his career.
Richmond greats like KB had 5 (2 in premiership years) and KBs 1980 finals series was better than anything Dusty provided.
Dusty the best finals player of the 2010s, but using that to try and include him in GOAT discussions is ridiculous.
That does a disservice for those good enough to play decent footy (albeit footy where averages naturally go down) past 302 games. Especially in the modern game, we will see quite a few getting to 330-400 games. Averages will go down but tallies build and they remain important (Dangerfield is still in Geelong's 3 most crucial players).
Yeah you have the individual accolades and specific mega seasons that that help reference respective peaks.
No point then doing career avg again as total output is a much better view of overall impact. A bloke avg 24 disposals over 10 seasons hasn't had a better career compared to a player who avg 22 disposals over 17 seasons.
Total stats, when combined with accolades gives best overview, as if the player who played less seasons of he had more mega seasons (BnFs, Brownlow etc.) you would perhaps give them the nod.
The real GOATs have both the peak and the overall totals. Dusty has the 2010s finals.
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