Why have Port been better at retaining players than the Crows over the years?

[LoBu]

It's not a strong premise, burgoyne, wingard, polec, Harley, and now Houston, Amon just to name a few.

Player movement is 99% dictated by the size of contract first, Port pay their good players well they keep them, same as Adelaide.

 

[Freomaniac]

We've seen how West Coast have been better at retaining players than Fremantle over the years, which isn't a surprise given the Eagles are bigger, more successful and have been around longer.

However, it's a different situation in SA.
You'd think the Crows being bigger, more successful and being around longer than Port would lead to them having better player retention rates than Port but this isn't the case.
Port were really bad in 2011 and 2012 yet they managed to retain Travis Boak despite my own club actively courting him. Clubs also tried to poach John Butcher but he decided to stay at Port.
Crows player losses have been well documented and we've seen Dangerfield, Cameron, Lever and Gunston all become premiership players after leaving the Crows.

I know Port lost Houston recently but this thread topic is about judging the clubs by the collective, rather than just one season.
Crows have had more success (2 flags > 1 flag), have been around longer (1991 > 1997) and have a bigger supporter base, so why have Port been better than the Crows at retaining players over the years?

I swear Ken Hinkley plays a factor

 

[crows dude]

Tippett, Bock, Davis, Betts, Jenkins.
Compare your player retention over the years to that of West Coast, and it's chalk and cheese.

Your club are seen as the SA version of West Coast. A big, powerful, well respected club who represent a proud Australian Football state. Hence why Port having a better player retention rate than the Crows over the years has always surprised me.

OK
But still that was many years ago.
Our recent retention of players has been good.

 

[The 747]

A tiny bit harsh on Gunston. His influence has obviously waned significantly but he still has some influence on games. He's been playing as more a defensive forward on influential defenders and still kicked 7 goals (4 and 3) across 2 games against GWS with both games high pressure and decided by under a goal. He also kicked 4 against Brisbane and 3 against both Carlton and Adelaide. He kicked 5 against the Tigers and got 3 Brownlow votes. He was also top 15 in the whole comp for marks inside 50, despite being sub 5 times (and only playing 13 full games). 40 goals and assists from the little game time he got was nowhere his best but still influential at times.

Or were you thinking he remained delisted? (Cos he was re-drafted and had to be delisted to allow the minimum number of picks at the draft).

Yes, I thought he had finished up. Thanks for the correction.

 

[CrowToon]

Thread a few years too late. The 10s were the low point for this kind of stuff and it probably isn't a coincidence that this is the same decade we suffered our biggest scandals.

Also probably victims of decent development in the early-mid 10s which allowed the sharks to circle with decent deals.

I simply cannot imagine anyone is staying at Port for the history given they change their minds on who and what they are and were every few years and really - does anyone care outside of their fan base? It probably speaks more to the fact that whilst Adelaide were scoring own goal after own goal off the field, Port Adelaide were humming along on mediocrity, winning a fair few games in-season.

 

[FrankDrebin]

It's not a strong premise, burgoyne, wingard, polec, Harley, and now Houston, Amon just to name a few.

Player movement is 99% dictated by the size of contract first, Port pay their good players well they keep them, same as Adelaide.

Tom? That was 27 years ago!

 

[Tarkyn_24]

i would argue mcgovern has never had an influence on any game

Has twice influenced Collingwood games.

2024 was a pisser.

 

[Papa G]

It's not a strong premise, burgoyne, wingard, polec, Harley, and now Houston, Amon just to name a few.

Player movement is 99% dictated by the size of contract first, Port pay their good players well they keep them, same as Adelaide.

Burgoyne and Wingard were both SA boys pushed out of Port (whether warranted is debatable), Polec left because his out of his league bird wanted to go back to Vic and North threw a stupid contract at him, Harley couldn't get a game at Port. Houston, Amon and Impey are about the only ones that asked to leave, with arguably only Houston an A Grader. The Crows have been burnt way harder on good players leaving them, whether this is a cultural problem, they don't get their salary cap right, or they've just been unlucky... who knows?

 

[LoBu]

Burgoyne and Wingard were both SA boys pushed out of Port (whether warranted is debatable), Polec left because his out of his league bird wanted to go back to Vic and North threw a stupid contract at him, Harley couldn't get a game at Port. Houston, Amon and Impey are about the only ones that asked to leave, with arguably only Houston an A Grader. The Crows have been burnt way harder on good players leaving them, whether this is a cultural problem, they don't get their salary cap right, or they've just been unlucky... who knows?

There is always a long tail of reasons why players go, and i could list players from all clubs not just Port, or Adelaide, but my position is its mostly money.
Adelaide for a long time didn't pay the top dollars, and flattened out the mid range players, rightly or wrongly.
But as you point out, sometimes it's good culture to push a high performer out too.

 

[LoBu]

Tom? That was 27 years ago!

Haha, somebody put Davis and Bock on the list, so I thought I could do better

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Current Crows Ins (with Draft Guru rating)
Dawson A
Rankine B+ (will be A)
Keays B+
Hinge B
Cumming B
Neal-Bullen B
Peatling B
Burgess C+

Current Crows Outs
Cameron A
Dangerfield B+ (was A)
Lever B
Gunston B
Himmelberg B
McGovern C+

Now have more Ins than Outs, so looks like we are finally rectifying things.

 

[Taper]

Bit of an outdated opinion to be honest.

Last few years the only players we’ve lost have been three fringe types in Kelly, Doedee and Himmelberg. Doedee the only loss of any note and was solely contract related coming off his second ACL.

On the flip side Port have lost two of their prime ball movers in recent years - Houston and Amon. Also lost a fringe type in Duursma who not that long ago was one of their bright young talents. Soldo also wanted to leave after one year.

Not saying the AFC don’t have issues with retention - it was a horror show for a while there - but this should be a 2020 thread, it’s not particularly reflective on current trends.

Do you think Nicks being coach has improved player retention?
Nicks cops a lot of flak from the Crows faithful, but he inherited a raging bin fire and has had to oversee a complete overhaul of not only the list - but the culture as well.

New assistant coaches in the box to help Nicks should go a long way to improving the tactical side of things.
Look at Hardwick at Richmond - he built a strong culture, but it wasn't until after the Tigers brought in new assistant coaches in the 2016 off season where we would see things begin to really click for them.

Nicks should oversee a meteoric rise to the top 8 this year, perhaps even the top 4 depending on how things play out over the season with injuries, suspensions etc.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Do you think Nicks being coach has improved player retention?
Nicks cops a lot of flak from the Crows faithful, but he inherited a raging bin fire and has had to oversee a complete overhaul of not only the list - but the culture as well.

New assistant coaches in the box to help Nicks should go a long way to improving the tactical side of things.
Look at Hardwick at Richmond - he built a strong culture, but it wasn't until after the Tigers brought in new assistant coaches in the 2016 off season where we would see things begin to really click for them.

Nicks should oversee a meteoric rise to the top 8 this year, perhaps even the top 4 depending on how things play out over the season with injuries, suspensions etc.

Yes, the evidence would suggest Nicks has improved retention, given Crows have more Ins than Outs.

However, Nicks is a poor strategic & match day coach. Hopefully bringing in Davis covers this major deficiency... like Carr with Kenny.

 

[The 747]

Current Crows Ins (with Draft Guru rating)
Dawson A
Rankine B+ (will be A)
Keays B+
Hinge B
Cumming B
Neal-Bullen B
Peatling B
Burgess C+

Current Crows Outs
Cameron A
Dangerfield B+ (was A)
Lever B
Gunston B
Himmelberg B
McGovern C+

Now have more Ins than Outs, so looks like we are finally rectifying things.

Ben Keays is a superior player to Jake Lever..

Ben Keays is equivalent to Patrick Dangerfield.

Draft Guru should lay off the Weederman.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Ben Keays is a superior player to Jake Lever..

Ben Keays is equivalent to Patrick Dangerfield.

Draft Guru should lay off the Weederman.

Keays was our best & fairest.

Had a better season than both Lever & Dangerfield.

These would be current ranking not career ones.

 

[The 747]

Keays was our best & fairest.

Had a better season than both Lever & Dangerfield.

These would be current ranking not career ones.

OK, I have a great crypto tip for you.

 

[Consolaçao]

Thread a few years too late. The 10s were the low point for this kind of stuff and it probably isn't a coincidence that this is the same decade we suffered our biggest scandals.

Also probably victims of decent development in the early-mid 10s which allowed the sharks to circle with decent deals.

I simply cannot imagine anyone is staying at Port for the history given they change their minds on who and what they are and were every few years and really - does anyone care outside of their fan base? It probably speaks more to the fact that whilst Adelaide were scoring own goal after own goal off the field, Port Adelaide were humming along on mediocrity, winning a fair few games in-season.

Maybe retention issues have waned because the list has been rubbish. Let’s see what happens as the list improves and we start to get salary cap pressure.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

OK, I have a great crypto tip for you.

So are you denying Keays was our best & fairest?

Crypto is for criminals...

 

[The 747]

So are you denying Keays was our best & fairest?

Crypto is for criminals...

All those highly rated players took you all the way to 15th.

 

[Consolaçao]

Current Crows Ins (with Draft Guru rating)
Dawson A
Rankine B+ (will be A)
Keays B+
Hinge B
Cumming B
Neal-Bullen B
Peatling B
Burgess C+

Current Crows Outs
Cameron A
Dangerfield B+ (was A)
Lever B
Gunston B
Himmelberg B
McGovern C+

Now have more Ins than Outs, so looks like we are finally rectifying things.

The credibility of a ratings system that puts Burgess and McGovern on the same level needs to be questioned.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

All those highly rated players took you all the way to 15th.

3 of them haven't played a game for us yet...

So you don't rate the likes of Dawson & Rankine?

Wouldn't take them at the Cats?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

The credibility of a ratings system that puts Burgess and McGovern on the same level needs to be questioned.

So would rating Berg as B.

Bottom line is the talent in would now at least match or exceed the talent out based on current performances.

 

[Consolaçao]

So would rating Berg as B.

Bottom line is the talent in would now at least match or exceed the talent out based on current performances.

The last few years have been great, i agree.
Dawson and Rankine, plus this year’s trio are great pickups. I wonder whether having salary cap space and the ability throw cash around have played a role?
Time will tell.

 

[John Kale]

Also, slightly off topic but the assumption in the OP that the crows are the “more successful” of the two clubs is debatable.

I’m personally of the view that flags matter above all else, so the crows are the more successful in the AFL comp given its 1 flag vs 2. However, on average Port seem to have more of a culture of winning.

Since 97:

• Port have finished above the Crows 4 more times (16 to 12);
• Both clubs have made finals the same amount of times (14 each) BUT, Port have more top 4 finishes (9 to 5) and more minor premierships (4 to 2);
• The Crows have more bottom 4 finishes (5 to 3) and more wooden spoons (1 to 0).

I also don’t have the stat handy but I’d be willing to bet that Port have a better winning %.

Now I’m not arguing that Port are more successful, I’ve already said based on my personal metric the Crows are - BUT the Crows aren’t really this West Coast / Collingwood level big, successful behemoth.

Outside of the extra flag, it could be argued that Port have the more consistent winning culture (in the context of players weighing up clubs and wanting to go to a place that contends more frequently - which is the point of this discussion).

 

[Rabish Binney]

Tippett, Bock, Davis, Betts, Jenkins.
Compare your player retention over the years to that of West Coast, and it's chalk and cheese.

Your club are seen as the SA version of West Coast. A big, powerful, well respected club who represent a proud Australian Football state. Hence why Port having a better player retention rate than the Crows over the years has always surprised me.

Bock to GCS for money as they were a new club, as did David to GWS.