Kornes, Maclure and their 30 A Graders

[Noidnadroj]

As a general comment, Macclure not having Sicily, Heeney and Hogan as A-graders, but having Tex, Danger and Oliver makes his list absolutely laughable.

This means his list doesn’t take into account what happened last season, and doesn’t take into account what’s likely to happen this season.

So WTF is his list actually all about?


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[PhatBoy]

In comparison to Stengle, Bolton has 155 goals/assists across 2022-24, in a mostly poorly performing team. He also has 300 inside-50’s to 210 and 145 clearances to 80 as he plays a decent amount of time midfield… he has played 1 less game than Stengle in this time.

Much easier to produce quality numbers as a small forward in a strong team.

In the Geelong team of 2023 that missed finals, Stengle averaged 11.4 touches and 2.0 goals/GA, 2.8 I50’s and 0.7 clearances.

In the wooden spoon team of 2024 Bolton averaged 16.4 with 2.1 goals/GA, with 3.8 I50’s and 3.1 clearances.

Bolton was ridiculed for his 2024 season … but vastly superior to Stengle’s 2023 … small forward in a sh*te team is bloody hard work.

So the fact Bolton almost matches Stengle’s scoreboard impact despite playing significant midfield minutes and being in a much poorer team from 2022-24 shows his superiority as a player.

If Freo make top-6 as I expect they will Bolton will absolutely dominate.

He’s definitely an A-grader.


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1. Who ridiculed Bolton’s season? He played decent footy and was one of his team’s few regularly decent contributors. That he wasn’t at MVP level doesn’t mean he wasn’t playing well.

2. They aren’t competing for ‘the same position’. It’s not a team for starters, it’s a list of players so they don’t have to be like for like but even if they did, they don’t play the same role anyway. One is a small forward, one is a mid-forward. What the hell is the value in comparing them directly.

Gee Bolton gets more inside 50s - that’s amazing. Wait wait, don’t tell me: Gawn gets more hit outs than Stengle too.

 

[Fadge]

Bolton is no better or worse than a borderline A Grader, in the context of this discussion and the players being named.

It's very possible he'll deliver an A Grade season in 2025 in a stronger Fremantle team, but there are many others that are more likely to deliver A Grade seasons this year, hence why the likes of Bolton is on the fringe of these discussions.

I can accept if people have him at the lower end of their top 40 or so players in the competition, but I didn't fall of my chair when I realised neither Kornes or McClure regarded him as an A Grader.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Before the prelim against Brisbane he’s kicked 3, 4 and 4 in the last three finals he’s played. Yeah he’s battled hard.

Stengle has played in 3 total routs in finals and 2 competitive matches.

He has not kicked a single goal in a competitive final and has a solitary goal assist.

In fact he was abysmal in both competitive finals.

 

[PhatBoy]

Stengle as played in 3 total routs in finals and 2 competitive matches.

He has not kicked a single goal in a competitive final and has a solitary goal assist.

In fact he was abysmal in both competitive finals.

So. You beat it like it owes you money over the boot studder if he happens to be wearing yellow and black whether it’s in a rout or a close match as long as it’s got the word ‘final’ involved.

#percentage

 

[irel]

Apparantly the 2024 premiers won the Premiership with a bunch of B and C graders and the losing grand finalists lost it with a bunch of A graders. Yeah, righto.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Bolton is no better or worse than a borderline A Grader, in the context of this discussion and the players being named.

It's very possible he'll deliver an A Grade season in 2025 in a stronger Fremantle team, but there are many others that are more likely to deliver A Grade seasons this year, hence why the likes of Bolton is on the fringe of these discussions.

I can accept if people have him at the lower end of their top 40 or so players in the competition, but I didn't fall of my chair when I realised neither Kornes or McClure regarded him as an A Grader.

Neither did I...because, Cornes & McClure.

Bigfooty nuffies 2024, Cornes & McClure: Bolton & Rioli not A Graders, nowhere near it.

AFL trade market: Bolton is worth pick 2, Rioli(at 28yo) is worth pick 5.

But Fadge knows better than AFL list managers, what would they know.

 

[PhatBoy]

Neither did I...because, Cornes & McClure.

Bigfooty nuffies 2024: Bolton & Rioli not A Graders, nowhere near it.

AFL trade market: Bolton is worth pick 2, Rioli(at 28yo) is worth pick 5.

But Fadge knows better than AFL list managers, what would they know.

Using that logic the player taken at pick 2 is an A grader

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Using that logic the player taken at pick 2 is an A grader

Show me a proven player who traded for the value of pick 2 who wasn't considered an A Grader.

Put it another way, run down the list of "A" Graders and ask yourself what they would have traded for at the end of 2024.

 

[Fadge]

Apparantly the 2024 premiers won the Premiership with a bunch of B and C graders and the losing grand finalists lost it with a bunch of A graders. Yeah, righto.

But that's the nature of the competition.

It's not about hoe many A Graders you have... it's about the next level and how they complement each other as a team.

Sydney had 4 A Graders - Gulden, Warner, Heeney and Blakey. Brisbane had 3 - Neale, Cameron and Andrews.

Carlton probably have more A Graders than any other team in the competition. Definitely Cripps, Weitering and Curnow. Many would also have Walsh, McKay and DeKoning. But they then have the fewest B Graders, hence why they have failed to contend for a flag with this list.

The 2023 premiers only had one A Grader who was unanimous with Kornes and McClure - Daicos. Houston needs to be in, and then our cast of B Graders is a mile long.

 

[PhatBoy]

Show me a proven player who traded for the value of pick 2 who wasn't considered an A Grader.

He’s a one time All Australian who’s a very good player. That’s it mate. Players will trade for what they want or need, based on what the other team needs or wants.

Fremantle wanted him and knew that he wanted to get to them. They had something they knew Richmond wanted. So they make a deal happen.

Sitting there getting yourself in a sweaty emotional lather about it like he’s the equivalent of a #2 player that’s his true worth is no different to me saying that the picks we gave up for Smith are equal to his value when he’s never really done anything.

Players are worth what the teams chasing them are willing to give up for them. We gave up 3 first rounders to get Jeremy Cameron: because that’s what we needed. And it worked.

It doesn’t mean that the player’s exact value equates to ‘that number on the draft board.’

Most people I think would agree that Bolton is an above average player who on his best day can be a match winner but isn’t in the absolute top tier of the league just at the moment and doesn’t automatically walk into a list like the one being discussed in this thread, regardless of how much you think he should.

 

[irel]

But that's the nature of the competition.

It's not about hoe many A Graders you have... it's about the next level and how they complement each other as a team.

Sydney had 4 A Graders - Gulden, Warner, Heeney and Blakey. Brisbane had 3 - Neale, Cameron and Andrews.

Carlton probably have more A Graders than any other team in the competition. Definitely Cripps, Weitering and Curnow. Many would also have Walsh, McKay and DeKoning. But they then have the fewest B Graders, hence why they have failed to contend for a flag with this list.

The 2023 premiers only had one A Grader who was unanimous with Kornes and McClure - Daicos. Houston needs to be in, and then our cast of B Graders is a mile long.

Not correct

 

[Fadge]

Neither did I...because, Cornes & McClure.

Bigfooty nuffies 2024, Cornes & McClure: Bolton & Rioli not A Graders, nowhere near it.

AFL trade market: Bolton is worth pick 2, Rioli(at 28yo) is worth pick 5.

But Fadge knows better than AFL list managers, what would they know.

A Graders in the context of this discussion are the top 40 players in the competition.

That's a little over two per team, on average.

But clearly some teams have more, and others have fewer.

I mean, are Rioli and Bolton more worthy of being on this list than either Gulden, Warner or Heeney from Sydney, or Cripps, Weitering or Curnow from Carlton (teams with more than their quota of two players)?

Rioli is nowhere near it, and I've previously commented on Bolton.

 

[Fadge]

Not correct

Correct me then...

 

[Fadge]

Two players from my own club that haven't been mentioned - De Goey and J. Daicos.

De Goey is one of the most dynamic players in the competition, and has proven it on the biggest of stages. But whilst his best is elite, he has never been able to put a full season together.

J. Daicos - Club Best and Fairest and AA in the 2023 premiership season, followed up in 2024 just outside the AA squad and 3rd in his club's best and fairest. Entering the prime years of his career and another player who would surprise noone if he put together an 'A grade season' in 2025, but there are others who are slightly more likely.

This is an elite level we are dealing with here. Go cry over the omission of the likes of Dan Rioli elsewhere...

 

[irel]

Correct me then...

Cornes does not consider Andrews an A grader. Now thats a WOW.

 

[Fadge]

Cornes does not consider Andrews an A grader. Now thats a WOW.

Anything else to offer?

 

[irel]

Anything else to offer?

Huh? WTF?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

A Graders in the context of this discussion are the top 40 players in the competition.

That's a little over two per team, on average.

But clearly some teams have more, and others have fewer.

I mean, are Rioli and Bolton more worthy of being on this list than either Gulden, Warner or Heeney from Sydney, or Cripps, Weitering or Curnow from Carlton (teams with more than their quota of two players)?

Rioli is nowhere near it, and I've previously commented on Bolton.

Rioli nowhere near it...unless you are an AFL list manager, then he is magically worth as much or more in a trade as half the players on these laughable lists.

Bolton is not even debatable. He is on $1.2m just traded for the value of pick 2 or 3. Double flag player, AA and 25yo.

There are players like Dawson, Cameron, C, Uniacke, Dekoning, Newcombe, Holmes, Dylan Moore, Day, Houston, Zorko.

You are not telling me these guys are in the best 2 players per club on average but Bolton isn't. Well, don't tell me, tell the list managers, who clearly have no idea.

 

[Mr Meow]

In comparison to Stengle, Bolton has 155 goals/assists across 2022-24, in a mostly poorly performing team. He also has 300 inside-50’s to 210 and 145 clearances to 80 as he plays a decent amount of time midfield… he has played 1 less game than Stengle in this time.

Much easier to produce quality numbers as a small forward in a strong team.

In the Geelong team of 2023 that missed finals, Stengle averaged 11.4 touches and 2.0 goals/GA, 2.8 I50’s and 0.7 clearances.

In the wooden spoon team of 2024 Bolton averaged 16.4 with 2.1 goals/GA, with 3.8 I50’s and 3.1 clearances.

Bolton was ridiculed for his 2024 season … but vastly superior to Stengle’s 2023 … small forward in a sh*te team is bloody hard work.

So the fact Bolton almost matches Stengle’s scoreboard impact despite playing significant midfield minutes and being in a much poorer team from 2022-24 shows his superiority as a player.

If Freo make top-6 as I expect they will Bolton will absolutely dominate.

He’s definitely an A-grader.


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I agree that Bolton is an A Grader based on the last 3 seasons but these lists were supposedly based on 2024.

It was a bit of a farce that Stengle didn't make the All Australian team, but they decided to only pick one small forward if I recall correctly. There is more than elite small forward and Stengle is certainly one of them.

 

[Mr Meow]

As a general comment, Macclure not having Sicily, Heeney and Hogan as A-graders, but having Tex, Danger and Oliver makes his list absolutely laughable.

This means his list doesn’t take into account what happened last season, and doesn’t take into account what’s likely to happen this season.

So WTF is his list actually all about?


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Yeah this is where I'm also a bit confused. Some of the nominations seem out of date but it was meant to be a 2024 (performance)/2025 (projection) based exercise.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He’s a one time All Australian who’s a very good player. That’s it mate. Players will trade for what they want or need, based on what the other team needs or wants.

Fremantle wanted him and knew that he wanted to get to them. They had something they knew Richmond wanted. So they make a deal happen.

Sitting there getting yourself in a sweaty emotional lather about it like he’s the equivalent of a #2 player that’s his true worth is no different to me saying that the picks we gave up for Smith are equal to his value when he’s never really done anything.

Players are worth what the teams chasing them are willing to give up for them. We gave up 3 first rounders to get Jeremy Cameron: because that’s what we needed. And it worked.

It doesn’t mean that the player’s exact value equates to ‘that number on the draft board.’

Most people I think would agree that Bolton is an above average player who on his best day can be a match winner but isn’t in the absolute top tier of the league just at the moment and doesn’t automatically walk into a list like the one being discussed in this thread, regardless of how much you think he should.

This is laughable.

Bolton is an "above average player." No shit Sherlock. So generous of you to concede that.

Because all above average players are on $1.2m and trade for the value of pick 2.

1 time AA who has a 2023 season comfortably better than many players' AA selected seasons.

Cornes himself said Bolton is the best player in the game in 2022, now with no apparent diminution of ability according to Fremantle FC who are paying him $1.2m and traded pick 2 value for him, Cornes hasn't got him on his list of 30 A graders.

Richmond wanted to release Bolton, Fremantle wanted to recruit him. We know both of these things are true because Bolton was long contracted to the Tigers. So his value in salary and draft picks....is his actual value right now according to the AFL market.

Ask yourself if each club sequentially spilled every player into the market, exactly how many would trade for the value of pick 2 or more...start with Geelong's list if you like.

 

[PhatBoy]

This is laughable.

Bolton is an "above average player." No shit Sherlock. So generous of you to concede that.

Because all above average players are on $1.2m and trade for the value of pick 2.

1 time AA who has a 2023 season comfortably better than many players' AA selected seasons.

Cornes himself said Bolton is the best player in the game in 2022, now with no apparent diminution of ability according to Fremantle FC who are paying him $1.2m and traded pick 2 value for him, Cornes hasn't got him on his list of 30 A graders.

Richmond wanted to release Bolton, Fremantle wanted to recruit him. We know both of these things are true because Bolton was long contracted to the Tigers. So his value in salary and draft picks....is his actual value right now according to the AFL market.

Ask yourself if each club sequentially spilled every player into the market, exactly how many would trade for the value of pick 2 or more...start with Geelong's list if you like.

Salary equals how good a player is now. That’s good to know. Thanks. He’s earning more than Marcus Bontempelli and Kane Cornes said he’s the best 3.5 seasons ago

All hail your new best player in the game ladies and gentlemen.

Shai Bolton.

That settles the Gary Ablett GOAT debate then doesn’t it. What was he earning again?

So now when Kane Cornes doesn’t put him in this list, Kane Cornes’ opinion…. what, doesn’t matter?

I’m confused. When does Cornes’ opinion hold weight and when doesn’t it?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Salary equals how good a player is now. That’s good to know. Thanks.

All hail your new best player in the game ladies and gentlemen.

Shai Bolton.

That settles the Gary Ablett GOAT debate then doesn’t it

It does when you have just been recruited on that salary and it is being paid in its entirety by the recruiting club, which sees itself as a contender.

Why would Fremantle be wanting to pay Bolton $1.2m pa if this did not reflect his value?

You have got yourself in a flap because he has been playing for Richmond. You are never going to get a more accurate read on how the leading experts in this field - the list managers - rate a player, than in the situation we have just seen with Bolton, willing seller selling to a willing buyer in a totally fair trade.

Stengle in comparison could not get interest from other clubs at $750k.

Houston is on $900k just traded for nowhere near the value of pick 2 or even Rioli's pick 5 value for that matter.

But what would list managers know? Cornes, McClure, you & Fadge clearly know best.

 

[PhatBoy]

It does when you have just been recruited on that salary and it is being paid in its entirety by the recruiting club, which sees itself as a contender.

Why would Fremantle be wanting to pay Bolton $1.2m pa if this did not reflect his value?

You have got yourself in a flap because he has been playing for Richmond. You are never going to get a more accurate read on how the leading experts in this field - the list managers - rate a player, than in the situation we have just seen with Bolton, willing seller selling to a willing buyer in a totally fair trade.

I’m not in a flap about anything mate. He’s not even on the list

Your logic is just continually astoundingly hilarious.

He’s a good player yes and wanted to be at a new club, and that club rightfully thought he could make them better. So they make the concessions that allow it to happen. One of which is paying his salary. Fremantle are a side which by all rights should probably be somewhere near the higher reaches of the table and a player like Bolton may help them do it. Hes good enough to make a difference, so again, they see that as a reason to do what they have to in order to get him in.

That doesn’t mean he’s this all conquering ‘cream of the crop, best player in the comp’ entity you’re making him out to be, whether he’s from the tigers or any other club.

Same as smith for us. I’m staggered that people keep making out like we have recruited a superstar of some sort. As far as I’m concerned we felt like we were close enough to a grand final and had a need to find at least one potential ‘decent’ player to go into the midfield so had to do whatever we needed to in order to get him. That’s how clubs recruit.