Free Agency Tom De Koning - Joins St Kilda as an RFA, Carlton get Band 1 compensation (Pick 9)

[Jeremias]

This thread might be going for a while. Please respect board rules and each other.

As a starting point, let's leave any references to 'culture' at the door.

Thread bans and infractions will be handed out as necessary.

Thanks.

 

[projectv]

Its easy for us Footy supporters to say yeah we will just move contracts and facilitate a match to make sure there is a trade rather than just the compo but its easily said than done.

You would need to ask why other clubs dont do this and the man reason is they just cant and the contracts they already have in place wont allow them to be adjusted and then there is the risk that the club just doesnt trade for the player and moves on. To date i believe only Cameron has been matched and from what i remember it was not a massive deal that made him the most expensive player in the league.

I remember when Franklin went to sydney and Hawks were asked why they didnt match and just accepted the compo and they said something along the lines of we just could not match it and their hands were tied and had no choice accepting the compo which was #17 from what i remember.

TDK is in a great position as he either gets
$1.5 mil range offer from the blues and stays
$1.7 mil and moves to St Kilda
$1.7 mil blues match and if a trade cant be done ( And im of the opinion SOS would be the exact person that would say well we are not trading for him and TDK enjoy the pay rise at the club you wanted to stay at.

It's amusing that Carlton fans think they're just going call our bluff and we're going to just hand over three first round picks. Absolutely delusional.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

So you think now that we offered 1.7M we are basically forced to take him even if Carlton match and demand 3 first round picks?

If we match a trade and you're offering the biggest contract in AFL history? You're damn right we're taking you to the cleaners for it.

Same thing happened with Geelong and Jeremy Cameron.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

i"m not arguing against Carlton matching and keeping him. Just seems crazy that we would pay 1.7m and trade away a good player or high draft picks. the premium you pay for free agents is to counteract not losing players or picks. we are a shit team when it comes to FA's we often pay crazy premiums but this seems a bit too much even for the saints.

Absolutely. This is the problem with restricted free agency as a concept.
The AFL's compo simply rarely matches the value of the player leaving. Especially at the top end, which is further compounded if the team picks up a free agent of their own. Any other year, you can chase free agents to your heart's content, with no penalty. Do it in a year that you lose one and get compo, and you're screwed.
Teams will all slowly start matching RFA bids when they know that compo isn't matching the player's worth. Which means teams will end up forking out $$$ and picks for the top notch players, making RFA less attractive.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

It's amusing that Carlton fans think they're just going call our bluff and we're going to just hand over three first round picks. Absolutely delusional.

It's amusing that Saints fans think they can entice a player across with the biggest contract in league history, have him agree (if he does), then just turn around and go 'nah, we're good' when they don't want to trade.

 

[projectv]

It's amusing that Saints fans think they can entice a player across with the biggest contract in league history, have him agree (if he does), then just turn around and go 'nah, we're good' when they don't want to trade.

St Kilda are under zero obligation to go through with a trade if it looks like he's going to stay at Carlton.

It'll just be "lol player snubs Saints again" and we'll move onto the next player we probably won't be able to get as a free agent.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[bird_man]

Isn't that why clubs will heavily front load an offer, like what we did with Martin?
GC might have been happy to keep Martin at circa $600k per, but couldn't match our heavily front loaded deal of around $1m for years 1&2?

This is way off the mark mate.

Martin wasn't a free agent, a trade just didn't get done. Martin put a price on his head for the PSD.

 

[projectv]

Don't worry though Carlton will find 2mil a year behind a couch cushion and we'll be forced to cough up 4 first rounders!

 

[stavro#4]

Absolutely. This is the problem with restricted free agency as a concept.
The AFL's compo simply rarely matches the value of the player leaving. Especially at the top end, which is further compounded if the team picks up a free agent of their own. Any other year, you can chase free agents to your heart's content, with no penalty. Do it in a year that you lose one and get compo, and you're screwed.
Teams will all slowly start matching RFA bids when they know that compo isn't matching the player's worth. Which means teams will end up forking out $$$ and picks for the top notch players, making RFA less attractive.

It's amusing that Saints fans think they can entice a player across with the biggest contract in league history, have him agree (if he does), then just turn around and go 'nah, we're good' when they don't want to trade.

The size of the contract is completely irrelevant to the value Carlton supporters believe he should get.

If we pay TDK 3m a season you aren’t then deserving of say 4 FRDP.

It will always be the bands as they are for compo and it will only ever be one pick. The part all you Carlton supporters in this thread can’t acknowledge is that IN HIS IDEAL WORLD HE WANTS TO STAY AT CARLTON.

if you believe you can clear cap room for the sake of matching - why wouldn’t the player just stay where he ideally wants to be?

Why would he agree to help you get further value - when the appeal is the free agency of the player to us. Ie we won’t lose anything.

 

[stavro#4]

Don't worry though Carlton will find 2mil a year behind a couch cushion and we'll be forced to cough up 4 first rounders!

It’s a truly bizarre opinion considering free agency has been occurring for as long as it has at this point.

Clearing out a stack of best 23 players to find cap space to “match” and demand assets for a player who wants to stay a blue ideally.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The size of the contract is completely irrelevant to the value Carlton supporters believe he should get.

If we pay TDK 3m a season you aren’t then deserving of say 4 FRDP.

It will always be the bands as they are for compo and it will only ever be one pick. The part all you Carlton supporters in this thread can’t acknowledge is that IN HIS IDEAL WORLD HE WANTS TO STAY AT CARLTON.

if you believe you can clear cap room for the sake of matching - why wouldn’t the player just stay where he ideally wants to be?

Why would he agree to help you get further value - when the appeal is the free agency of the player to us. Ie we won’t lose anything.

Shuffling cash around to match an offer to prevent him walking for one compo pick is not the same as being able to actually afford him over that period.

This exact same scenario played out at GWS. Everyone knew they didn't have the cash to pay him long term with half a dozen massive contracts already signed long term. They shuffled around cash to match the offer and went to the trade table.

 

[projectv]

Shuffling cash around to match an offer to prevent him walking for one compo pick is not the same as being able to actually afford him over that period.

This exact same scenario played out at GWS. Everyone knew they didn't have the cash to pay him long term with half a dozen massive contracts already signed long term. They shuffled around cash to match the offer and went to the trade table.

Would you be happy as a Carlton supporter if your club "shuffled around cash" to match the bid and then he ends up staying with you? Even knowing that he's squeezed an extra half a million a year that you didn't need to be paying him?

It seems like a huge risk.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Would you be happy as a Carlton supporter if your club "shuffled around cash" to keep TDK and then he stays with you? Even knowing that he's squeezed an extra half a million a year that you didn't need to be paying him?

You're thinking all this in the mindset that TDK would knowingly screw over the team he's played for and supported all his life? He loves the club why in God's name would he agree to completely fek us

If the Saints are all bark and no bite and won't pony up if we matched a trade he'd probably just say to hell with them I'll take the 1.1 mil at the Blues and stay.

 

[projectv]

You're thinking all this in the mindset that TDK would knowingly screw over the team he's played for and supported all his life? He loves the club why in God's name would he agree to completely fek us

If the Saints are all bark and no bite and won't pony up if we matched a trade he'd probably just say to hell with them I'll take the 1.1 mil at the Blues and stay.

If he didn't want to screw over Carlton why hasn't he just signed a new contract already?

You didn't answer my question by the way.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If he didn't want to screw over Carlton why hasn't he just signed a new contract already?

You didn't answer my question by the way.

Idk mate, why do you think? Braindead discussion

 

[Philhawk]

Do Carlton fans think they can match, then not pay him the same amount?

There’s no world where St Kilda are obligated to follow through on the trade if Carlton match the $1.7m p/y.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Do Carlton fans think they can match, then not pay him the same amount?

There’s no world where St Kilda are obligated to follow through on the trade if Carlton match the $1.7m p/y.

How is there not an obligation? The Saints would torn to shreds by the AFLPA and Player Managers mafia. They'd be lucky to make a trade for a player of Francis Evans caliber if they pulled a stunt like that.

They've courted him for a year, offered him the biggest contract in league history and then they refuse to stump up a trade if Carlton matched the offer? They'd be blacklisted by every manager going around for years afterwards.

 

[Philhawk]

How is there not an obligation? The Saints would torn to shreds by the AFLPA and Player Managers mafia. They'd be lucky to make a trade for Francis Evans if they courted him for a year and then refused to stump up a trade if Carlton matched the offer.

They really wouldn’t.

If the ask is 3 first rounders, they’d be idiots to even consider.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

They really wouldn’t.

If the ask is 3 first rounders, they’d be idiots to even consider.

They'll know all those details before any paperwork gets submitted. If they know Carlton are going to match they'd know they're going to have to pony up or back down if they believe the price to be too steep.

 

[stavro#4]

Shuffling cash around to match an offer to prevent him walking for one compo pick is not the same as being able to actually afford him over that period.

This exact same scenario played out at GWS. Everyone knew they didn't have the cash to pay him long term with half a dozen massive contracts already signed long term. They shuffled around cash to match the offer and went to the trade table.

Shuffling cash around, this is rumoured to be up to 500k per season more than you are willing to or can pay.

You do understand that it isn’t necessarily 1 deal that you need to move. It’s potentially multiple deals over multiple years because of the way they are structured and to get players to do that you need to give them more money over further years.

If you can’t genuinely understand how poor that list management is to just get in a position to FORCE a hypothetical match and if you can’t understand that the club the player wants to be paid by is Carlton, then I truly can’t help you.

You can’t for one moment step away from this situation and say what each saints supporter has said here:

1. TDK would remain a blue if he was offered the equivalent or near enough money.
2. Why would he help get you better value if you wouldn’t pay him and he wants to stay?

You don’t actually have an answer and no Carlton fan has actually made a genuine attempt at this situation.

You posted 3 draft picks is the asking price because he would be the highest paid

The other muppet thought you should ask for Marshall and we would accept that deal.

The reason TDK is getting offered a deal of 1.7m isn’t because that’s what we think his salary should be against the current backdrop. It’s an extreme amount to get the player through free agency.
That is the entire value in this endeavour. If we achieve that we retain our first round pick which can be used at the draft or in other deals.

Our president today said the money isn’t an issue for TDK and others + retaining those we have (NWM). We have planned for this situation since SOS got here.

 

[crasha301]

If the blues could match the saints offer of 1.7 million they'd be changing their current offer of 1 million to 1.4 million, saving 300k .

And getting the good news they absolutely need atm.

BUT, they can't. They are already paying a minimum of 4 players a million plus a year.

On CPH2145 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Shuffling cash around, this is rumoured to be up to 500k per season more than you are willing to or can pay.

You do understand that it isn’t necessarily 1 deal that you need to move. It’s potentially multiple deals over multiple years because of the way they are structured and to get players to do that you need to give them more money over further years.

If you can’t genuinely understand how poor that list management is to just get in a position to FORCE a hypothetical match and if you can’t understand that the club the player wants to be paid by is Carlton, then I truly can’t help you.

Right... So let's say Cripps and Curnow say give me 500k extra in 2027 instead of 2026 so u can get better return for losing one of our players and hopefully use that to improve the list enough to contend for our last 4-5 years. That would be poor list management?

You can’t for one moment step away from this situation and say what each saints supporter has said here:

1. TDK would remain a blue if he was offered the equivalent or near enough money.
2. Why would he help get you better value if you wouldn’t pay him and he wants to stay?

TDK has no love or care for the Saints at all, he'd be going there for money and nothing else. Just like GAJ when he went to the Suns.

In that case why would he not try and help the club he actually has a love for and lifelong connections at get better value for him when he left? That's what any sane person would do when leaving for a truckload of cash and nothing else.

You posted 3 draft picks is the asking price because he would be the highest paid

Currently the best ruckman in the league at the ripe old age of 25 and still improving. Yep, 2025, 2026 and 2027 first rounders with some chump change going back is what I'd be asking for. He's not unrestricted and arguably our best player.

The other muppet thought you should ask for Marshall and we would accept that deal.

The reason TDK is getting offered a deal of 1.7m isn’t because that’s what we think his salary should be against the current backdrop. It’s an extreme amount to get the player through free agency.
That is the entire value in this endeavour. If we achieve that we retain our first round pick which can be used at the draft or in other deals.

Our president today said the money isn’t an issue for TDK and others + retaining those we have (NWM). We have planned for this situation since SOS got here.

Once again, he's not unrestricted. If the Saints can't play the system well enough by presenting an offer that Carlton actually cannot possibly match then you run the risk of being forced to the trade table. That's just part of the game SOS is playing here.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

If the blues could match the saints offer of 1.7 million they'd be changing their current offer of 1 million to 1.4 million, saving 300k .

And getting the good news they absolutely need atm.

BUT, they can't. They are already paying a minimum of 4 players a million plus a year.

On CPH2145 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Being able to shuffle money around on long term contracts to match an offer for the sake of forcing a trade is completely different to actually being able to afford that contract in the long run.

It's not rocket science, Saints fans just can't seem to wrap their brains around it though.

 

[Outtatym]

Congrats to Stkilda for taking the mantle from North as every player managers favourite leverage

 

[stavro#4]

Right... So let's say Cripps and Curnow say give me 500k extra in 2027 instead of 2026 so u can get better return for losing one of our players and hopefully use that to improve the list enough to contend for our last 4-5 years. That would be poor list management?

TDK has no love or care for the Saints at all, he'd be going there for money and nothing else. Just like GAJ when he went to the Suns.

In that case why would he not try and help the club he actually has a love for and lifelong connections at get better value for him when he left? That's what any sane person would do when leaving for a truckload of cash and nothing else.

Currently the best ruckman in the league at the ripe old age of 25 and still improving. Yep, 2025, 2026 and 2027 first rounders with some chump change going back is what I'd be asking for. He's not unrestricted and arguably our best player.

Once again, he's not unrestricted. If the Saints can't play the system well enough by presenting an offer that Carlton actually cannot possibly match then you run the risk of being forced to the trade table. That's just part of the game SOS is playing here.

My god mate.

Your list isn’t worthy of contention this year. Who are you grabbing to get you there next once you retain TDK?

Why would he help Carlton? The simple fact is that he owes them no loyalty. They don’t want to pay him and he wants to stay. Why would he do anything but look after his own interest which is - get paid and aim for a flag.

And free agency is going to get him paid at Carlton and you will lose players to accomodate this or it will get Carlton a band 1 compo. There isn’t some negotiation here. This is the entire reason for the astronomical offer of 1.7m. That is how we have played the system.

If he was worth that 1.7m deal - you and other clubs would be ponying up the same cash.