Review R11: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly vs. Waalitj Marawar (West Coast Eagles)

[davos44]

And the other draftees?

Lots of good players. Soligo is up there.

 

[NSolis]

Lots of good players. Soligo is up there.

The players from that year with 70+ games are JHF, Daicos, NWM, Connor MacDonald and Soligo. Pretty impressive group.

 

[Burtonsgottago]

Its time for Edwards to get a gig soon

But like Isaac we're probably likely to play him out of position

Shifting everyone around to fit Milera in

 

[Moonwatcher]

One thing which is View attachment 2325838 about our current Ladder poz and % ...

4th and 130.6%.

PA: 15th and a wonderfully dismal 79.1%. I'm gonna wallow in that, all week.

51.5% for them to overtake us

 

[CrowBloke]

I do love on this site how people manage to blame absolutely anything they don’t like on the coach. If they like a selection it’s Murray’s influence but if they don’t like it, it’s 100% Nicks.

My reply to jenny61_99 didn't mention Davis
but
on the topic, Nicks has come up with some good things (changes) this year that he's never done before.
Never, in 5 full years, previously.
Either Nicks had a vision of some kind, a miraculous moment of clarity, or Davis has been giving him some decent advice which Nicks has acted on (to his credit).
For me, it's too little, too late.

Please try not confuse opinions with facts.
It's a Forum of opinions from games which produce almost opposite opinions based on the same facts eg
often in here someone will say that Milera was hot shit, but someone else will say --- about the same game, the same acts, the same info --- that Milera played well.
Go figure.
It's ok to have opposing opinions, to agree to disagree, but some people just wanna be RIGHT.
That's a pity.

Here's a fact: Nicks has Coached us to a 38.03 % winning record.
From that, I think his track record is indefensible and my opinion is that he's a shit Coach and should be sacked.
Others (maybe 38.03%, who knows?) look at 2023 and our 7-3 start to this year and want him retained, defending him every chance they get (which is not often, let's face it).

Any fair assessment would show that the coaches and list management have all supported Soligo completely from the moment he got here.

I agree; not in dispute.

He is now struggling with much more dynamic team mates in the midfield and he needs to adapt, pure and simple.

So you're saying that being surrounded by better teammates has caused Soligo to struggle?
That's an unusual take (opinion), with which I disagree. Because of his reduced effectiveness, I think Soligo is carrying a niggle, but I don't know. If that's wrong, well, I am wrong.
In fact, I'd suggest that some players become better players when surrounded by better teammates (eg Soligo, Fogarty, Hinge, Rachele, Keays, Worrell).

All we have to do now is surround them with better Coaches (get rid of VB, Burns, Godden and most crucially Nicks). Asap.

 

[CrowBloke]

51.5% for them to overtake us

... and 4 more wins.

Isn't it just wonderful??

 

[CrowBloke]

Not overly fussed with the fine for Baker.
However, I'm, interested to know how it was arrived at. I'm assuming it was Deliberate, High contact and low impact? Would that equate a fine?

It was off the ball, not a part of play, not an accidental clash and could have done some damage to Peatling's neck

I'm appalled he didn't get at least a week.
Do we want kids and Juniors to be encouraged to do shit like that?

 

[cmndstab]

Not overly fussed with the fine for Baker.
However, I'm, interested to know how it was arrived at. I'm assuming it was Deliberate, High contact and low impact? Would that equate a fine?

There are no gradings for that kind of action. It's not treated as a strike or rough conduct, etc, it's called "misconduct". The AFL definition is:

"Misconduct has a wide meaning and generally is any conduct which would be reasonably regarded as unacceptable or unsportsmanlike or where it had the effect or potential to prejudice the reputation of any person, club or the AFL or to bring the game of football into disrepute."

So it covers things like extremely inappropriate speech, or grabbing players by the genitals, or deliberately trying to injure a player, or, yes, driving your elbow into the back of someone's head when they're on the ground. It's basically a catch-all term for dog acts.

There are two categories, "misconduct" and "serious misconduct". For the former, it's an automatic fine of $1500 for a first offence, $3125 for a second offence, and $5000 for subsequent offences, minus around 1/3 of the fine for a guilty plea. I think the previous offences expire after two years. For serious misconduct, it's off to the tribunal to decide the outcome.

The AFL provides no examples of what constitutes misconduct vs serious misconduct, and as far as I can tell it's entirely at the discretion of the MRO.

 

[AFC979810]

Nicks has come up with some good things (changes) this year that he's never done before.
Never, in 5 full years, previously.
Either Nicks had a vision of some kind, a miraculous moment of clarity, or Davis has been giving him some decent advice which Nicks has acted on (to his credit).
For me, it's too little, too late.

In all honesty - whats different? What changes have you seen this year that he hasn't done before?

The only thing I can think of is the smart proactive use of the SUB in the first 2 weeks.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I do love on this site how people manage to blame absolutely anything they don’t like on the coach. If they like a selection it’s Murray’s influence but if they don’t like it, it’s 100% Nicks.

Any fair assessment would show that the coaches and list management have all supported Soligo completely from the moment he got here. He is now struggling with much more dynamic team mates in the midfield and he needs to adapt, pure and simple.

Yes and no. Nicks is the one who gets the final say on the team. But you can see Nicks has been applying greater accountability to his selections. Last year he would have run back to Murphy, Smith etc this year he seems happy to explore other options. This I attribute to Murray coaching him to apply more accountability and reasoning to his selections. This is a stark difference to previous years. Hence the credit. Remember he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to blood draftees last year.

However, Nicks doing the same bad shit he has done for years is Nicks. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

 

[adelaidecrows]

There are no gradings for that kind of action. It's not treated as a strike or rough conduct, etc, it's called "misconduct". The AFL definition is:

"Misconduct has a wide meaning and generally is any conduct which would be reasonably regarded as unacceptable or unsportsmanlike or where it had the effect or potential to prejudice the reputation of any person, club or the AFL or to bring the game of football into disrepute."

So it covers things like extremely inappropriate speech, or grabbing players by the genitals, or deliberately trying to injure a player, or, yes, driving your elbow into the back of someone's head when they're on the ground. It's basically a catch-all term for dog acts.

There are two categories, "misconduct" and "serious misconduct". For the former, it's an automatic fine of $1500 for a first offence, $3125 for a second offence, and $5000 for subsequent offences, minus around 1/3 of the fine for a guilty plea. I think the previous offences expire after two years. For serious misconduct, it's off to the tribunal to decide the outcome.

The AFL provides no examples of what constitutes misconduct vs serious misconduct, and as far as I can tell it's entirely at the discretion of the MRO.

The AFL has made a mistake with this by applying individual penalties. Its a team game. Why punish the individual player when you can punish the club and the club will in turn punish the player, other players will get the idea its not on!

for example. If the umpire immediately allocated a set shot at goal from the top of the goal square, over and above the free kick for the initial high tackle, resulting in two shots at goal then the coach will get rightly pissed off at his player and the player will truly get smashed for their stupidity. Lesson learned.

 

[NSolis]

In all honesty - whats different? What changes have you seen this year that he hasn't done before?

The only thing I can think of is the smart proactive use of the SUB in the first 2 weeks.

Depends how much you put down to the coach I guess, but I think there have been some changes in selection philosophy. I think in previous years Smith is likely retained after the Carlton game where he came in as experienced cover and played well, and I think Curtin and Nankervis would both have been dropped after some of their quieter games. Nankervis obviously was eventually dropped, but they stuck with him a reasonable amount of time. Sholl is potentially another one - good 2024 season and clearly best 23 at the start of the season, didn't perform well and was dropped and hasn't been picked again even when there were opportunities.

I think there's been more of an effort to think about the long-term goals of the season, including the rests you mention and trying to ensure that particular players are retained even when they aren't influencing games much, as well as understanding who is likely to be in the best team come finals and who is not.

A luxury of having a better team that can win without the best 23 on the park. It's all fairly small things though.

 

[AFC979810]

Depends how much you put down to the coach I guess, but I think there have been some changes in selection philosophy. I think in previous years Smith is likely retained after the Carlton game where he came in as experienced cover and played well, and I think Curtin and Nankervis would both have been dropped after some of their quieter games. Nankervis obviously was eventually dropped, but they stuck with him a reasonable amount of time. Sholl is potentially another one - good 2024 season and clearly best 23 at the start of the season, didn't perform well and was dropped and hasn't been picked again even when there were opportunities.

I think there's been more of an effort to think about the long-term goals of the season, including the rests you mention and trying to ensure that particular players are retained even when they aren't influencing games much, as well as understanding who is likely to be in the best team come finals and who is not.

A luxury of having a better team that can win without the best 23 on the park. It's all fairly small things though.

Yeah - I just dont see much of a change.

Sholl has been dropped multiple times throughout his career.

I think the philosophy of Nicks selection policies has not changed at all. He has a pretty rigid best 22 and then next few in. All that has changed is that Murphy / Smithers went from being in that best 22 group to out of it - mainly because we added ANB/Cumming.

 

[George CantStandYa]

Yeah - I just dont see much of a change.

Sholl has been dropped multiple times throughout his career.

I think the philosophy of Nicks selection policies has not changed at all. He has a pretty rigid best 22 and then next few in. All that has changed is that Murphy / Smithers went from being in that best 22 group to out of it - mainly because we added ANB/Cumming.

Exactly.

 

[1970crow]

We all know RoB does this for a few games every year where he looks like he is back to 2020 form and then play shit for the entire year.....

He’s still uncontracted.

 

[davos44]

I do love on this site how people manage to blame absolutely anything they don’t like on the coach. If they like a selection it’s Murray’s influence but if they don’t like it, it’s 100% Nicks.

Once you have seen Rankines set shot goalkicking blamed on Nicks Wednesday press conference, you have seen it all.

 

[1970crow]

Bad/Ugly, Mcleod not being part of the indigenous past players honour guard with Betts, Johncock, Eddie Hocking, Ricky O'Loughlin and Shane Tongerie

No Troy Bond?

 

[FR0GGY]

Once you have seen Rankines set shot goalkicking blamed on Nicks Wednesday press conference, you have seen it all.

Who is responsible for teaching the players again?

 

[jo172]

No Troy Bond?

No sign of Troy Bond, Cameron Ellis-Yolmen, Tyson Stengle, Shane McAdam, Richard Tambling, Jared Petrenko, Tony Armstrong, Jonathon Griffin or Jarhann Jacky as far a I could tell (i must still be missing a handful)

Should add Curtley Hampton was there.

 

[AFC979810]

I do love on this site how people manage to blame absolutely anything they don’t like on the coach. If they like a selection it’s Murray’s influence but if they don’t like it, it’s 100% Nicks.

Any fair assessment would show that the coaches and list management have all supported Soligo completely from the moment he got here. He is now struggling with much more dynamic team mates in the midfield and he needs to adapt, pure and simple.

100%. It's all form.

Look again at the difference between his 6 possession first half against Collingwood and his 21 touch/2 goal 2nd half against Collingwood.

 

[DJ75]

There are no gradings for that kind of action. It's not treated as a strike or rough conduct, etc, it's called "misconduct". The AFL definition is:

"Misconduct has a wide meaning and generally is any conduct which would be reasonably regarded as unacceptable or unsportsmanlike or where it had the effect or potential to prejudice the reputation of any person, club or the AFL or to bring the game of football into disrepute."

So it covers things like extremely inappropriate speech, or grabbing players by the genitals, or deliberately trying to injure a player, or, yes, driving your elbow into the back of someone's head when they're on the ground. It's basically a catch-all term for dog acts.

There are two categories, "misconduct" and "serious misconduct". For the former, it's an automatic fine of $1500 for a first offence, $3125 for a second offence, and $5000 for subsequent offences, minus around 1/3 of the fine for a guilty plea. I think the previous offences expire after two years. For serious misconduct, it's off to the tribunal to decide the outcome.

The AFL provides no examples of what constitutes misconduct vs serious misconduct, and as far as I can tell it's entirely at the discretion of the MRO.

So basically more grey areas that the AFL can use to manipulate outcomes. Makes sense.
I'm not sure how an elbow to the back of the head can not be considered a strike. Bizarre really, but this MRO has been a joke for years, so I doubt anyone is surprised.
I bet if the same action had been done to Cripps or Daicos, Baker would have been suspended

 

[cmndstab]

The AFL has made a mistake with this by applying individual penalties. Its a team game. Why punish the individual player when you can punish the club and the club will in turn punish the player, other players will get the idea its not on!

for example. If the umpire immediately allocated a set shot at goal from the top of the goal square, over and above the free kick for the initial high tackle, resulting in two shots at goal then the coach will get rightly pissed off at his player and the player will truly get smashed for their stupidity. Lesson learned.

They kind of did, right? The first free was for high contact, and then the elbow in the back of the head turned it into a 50m penalty which put Peatling in the goal square.

 

[CrowBloke]

In all honesty - whats different? What changes have you seen this year that he hasn't done before?

It's a reasonable question.
In my comments I was trying to be fair, only, before the happy clappers could jump in and say "Oh, Nicks did do such-and-such" eg selecting Murphy and Smith for only one game. Dropping Smith after he played OK was most unexpected.
The changes have been of a nature that I still want Nicks sacked more than I want to defend him and,
in all honesty,
I'm such an old fart I don't remember some of them , lol@me.

I do remember thinking "OK, that's different" but at the same time also thinking "Davis has got into his ear", then I got shouted down for giving Davis credit.
Davis was with Brisbane in a few roles, most recently their (potent) forward-line Coach in 2023-24. Brisbane/Fagan won the 2024 Flag and some of Fagan's Coaching attributes would have made their mark with Davis.
Our 3-talls forward line don't run into each other like they used to. Tex is playing higher and they are leaving room for sticky-hands Thilthorpe and Fogarty to lead into. That's new, and likely from Davis.
Our mids' structure is slightly different (Laird returned to half-back --- I doubt Nicks came up with that, nor VB, but I dunno) and they are all lowering their eyes more effectively and looking for someone in a good poz (except Laird, now from HB, whose panicky high bombs still drive me nuts ).

Another thing: vs Carlton, RoB definitely used a tactic against de Koning that I'd never seen before ie ran @ him to crowd him and nullify his jump. I forget (with apologies) who pointed out and analysed that (feenix67 ? Scorpus ?) but it was an astute observation and analysis. Again, at the time I thought "OK, well, Nicks has never done that before" and it must have been run past Nicks as a tactic).

The main reasons why I want Nicks sacked:
--- 2020-2024 has been a horror-show. Why we hung onto a Coach with such a poor W-L record is beyond me and I'd love to know what Nicks has said to the Board that extended his contract early last year, unless he uses some kind of Vader-like hand gesture to make them choke on their own decision-making.
--- the Club has propped Nicks up (to defend their decision to extend him) with better personnel on-and-off field. I'd say: hey, get a better Head Coach, and Assistants.
--- we're still only beating the same middling or weaker sides that we used to and getting beaten by better sides with better (smarter, tactically) Coaches
--- tactically, especially when changes need to be made quickly and proactively on Game Day to counter a run of oppo goals, Nicks is clueless. Usually, if changes are made, it's too late <== this is backed by the team's inability to come back from over 4 goals down to win. Never, under Nicks.
--- like any of us, Nicks knows who the Oppo best mids are yet he lets them run around like dogs off a leash and cut through and around our mids like they're witches' hats.
--- I just don't think he has the footy nous, the toughness, nor the winning ruthlessness to take us to a Flag.

If time proves me to be wrong about Nicks, I'll admit it and celebrate a Flag (or Flags) like I've never celebrated before --- it'll make my piss-ups after 1997 and 1998 look like Temperance Society bore-fests by comparison.
Think:
... ... .

 

[CrowBloke]

The AFL has made a mistake with this by applying individual penalties. Its a team game. Why punish the individual player when you can punish the club and the club will in turn punish the player, other players will get the idea its not on!

for example. If the umpire immediately allocated a set shot at goal from the top of the goal square, over and above the free kick for the initial high tackle, resulting in two shots at goal then the coach will get rightly pissed off at his player and the player will truly get smashed for their stupidity. Lesson learned.

Jeez, you're making great sense today.
What are you ON and ... can I get some?

 

[weekend at bernies]

In all honesty - whats different? What changes have you seen this year that he hasn't done before?

The only thing I can think of is the smart proactive use of the SUB in the first 2 weeks.

1 thing i will say i have noticed this year is he has continued to get games into Curtin, usually he would have been dropped by now.