Autopsy Round 14 - Saints vs Bulldogs

[kernelT]

Untrue.

Wilson gets rid of Jones and Tauru hopefully removes Byrnes.

Here's hoping.

We won 3 in a row with Garcia, Collard, Hastie, Wilson, O'Connell etc in the side… for some reason these guys have been dumped over Jones & Byrnes, seems like poor selection for a side who is rebuilding through the draft.

 

[BrutThough]

The only worse thing than being shit is being old and shit.

We are every bit a bottom 4 side over the last couple of months… the season is in the toilet so and we clearly look a lot better with more kids in the side anyway.

The knock on Ross has been that he favours mature, role-playing soldiers over unpredictable kids and right now he is selecting every single older player available and it shows - we suck arse.

The majority of the over 29s deserve the selection. Other than Jones, there is no one Ross is selecting over a kid. Maybe Butler but it's not as if Collard is doing anything to justify himself being selected again.

 

[kernelT]

The majority of the over 29s deserve the selection. Other than Jones, there is no one Ross is selecting over a kid. Maybe Butler but it's not as if Collard is doing anything to justify himself being selected again.

There's different types of selection integrity, our focus should be 100% on what makes us a better side in the next few years.

Jones is always going to look better than our kids in the VFL, doesn't mean he should be promoted.

At some point players like Wood, Hill, Webster will need to make way even if they are technically in our 'best 22'

Bonner, Membrey, Ross… they would all probably be in our 'best 22' again this year if they were on the list, but you shouldn't have to de-list players to stop the urge to pick them every week.

 

[kernelT]

Byrnes isn't over 29, but he is a VERY average footballer keeping a player like Wilson out.

 

[BrutThough]

There's different types of selection integrity, our focus should be 100% on what makes us a better side in the next few years.

Jones is always going to look better than our kids in the VFL, doesn't mean he should be promoted.

At some point players like Wood, Hill, Webster will need to make way even if they are technically in our 'best 22'

Bonner, Membrey, Ross… they would all probably be in our 'best 22' again this year if they were on the list, but you shouldn't have to de-list players to stop the urge to pick them every week.

To be fair, Jones was only promoted due to the Macrae injury despite being best on at Sandy the weeks beforehand. Hindsight shows he shouldn't have kept his spot once Macrae came back but he played well against Melbourne and 'birth certificate ' isnt usually a valid reason to drop someone who played well.

Of course eventually those 3 will need to make way but right now, they are still best performed for their positions. Because we dont have mid-tier players, keeping those 3 in isnt holding anyone out despite it raising the age profile. And we cant just delist them all like we did with those you mentioned to avoid playing them because we dont have those mid-aged players in those positions to work with while those underneath develop.

Byrnes isn't over 29, but he is a VERY average footballer keeping a player like Wilson out.

Brynes isnt keeping Wilson out. Wilson got himself dropped due to his own form slump and multiple opportunities at senior level to work through it. Ross also mentioned Wilson was open to going back to the VFL to work on his issues in a similar way to Pou last year.

 

[luca77]

There's different types of selection integrity, our focus should be 100% on what makes us a better side in the next few years.

Jones is always going to look better than our kids in the VFL, doesn't mean he should be promoted.

At some point players like Wood, Hill, Webster will need to make way even if they are technically in our 'best 22'

Bonner, Membrey, Ross… they would all probably be in our 'best 22' again this year if they were on the list, but you shouldn't have to de-list players to stop the urge to pick them every week.

So you're trying to sell that the opposite of selection integrity is selection integrity?

Bit of a stretch. You can just disagree, and say f### selection integrity, play the kids. At this point of the season, as Jake Niall was saying, it doesn't make much difference to our final position. Just margins and %.

I've been happy to see the selectors give the season a fair shake and minimize the floggings, especially due to free agency, but it's well and truly done now. Just announce that's what you're doing, and the media will probably back off a bit. Ross has been kind of saying it anyway, but might be time to just make it flat out obvious, either this week or after the pies match.

 

[kernelT]

To be fair, Jones was only promoted due to the Macrae injury despite being best on at Sandy the weeks beforehand. Hindsight shows he shouldn't have kept his spot once Macrae came back but he played well against Melbourne and 'birth certificate ' isnt usually a valid reason to drop someone who played well.

Of course eventually those 3 will need to make way but right now, they are still best performed for their positions. Because we dont have mid-tier players, keeping those 3 in isnt holding anyone out despite it raising the age profile. And we cant just delist them all like we did with those you mentioned to avoid playing them because we dont have those mid-aged players in those positions to work with while those underneath develop.


Brynes isnt keeping Wilson out. Wilson got himself dropped due to his own form slump and multiple opportunities at senior level to work through it. Ross also mentioned Wilson was open to going back to the VFL to work on his issues in a similar way to Pou last year.

Wilson has better numbers than both Jones & Byrnes this year. He is 19 and was subbed out in the first quarter, for what?

Ross seems to have a bigger stick for teenagers than he does for blokes ten years older.

It's okay to say we have got it wrong.

 

[Cro19]

Brynes isnt keeping Wilson out. Wilson got himself dropped due to his own form slump and multiple opportunities at senior level to work through it. Ross also mentioned Wilson was open to going back to the VFL to work on his issues in a similar way to Pou last year.

Wilson and Hill have both been moved off a wing to accommodate Byrnes. I would argue a lot of Darcy's slump has come from being stuck on a forward flank in a team that struggles get the ball out of it's back half most weeks.

 

[kernelT]

So you're trying to sell that the opposite of selection integrity is selection integrity?

Bit of a stretch. You can just disagree, and say f### selection integrity, play the kids. At this point of the season, as Jake Niall was saying, it doesn't make much difference to our final position. Just margins and %.

I've been happy to see the selectors give the season a fair shake and minimize the floggings, especially due to free agency, but it's well and truly done now. Just announce that's what you're doing, and the media will probably back off a bit. Ross has been kind of saying it anyway, but might be time to just make it flat out obvious, either this week or after the pies match.

No I am saying that VFL form shouldn't automatically qualify you for AFL games, unless you believe that Southport would be a better side than St Kilda.

Where is the integrity in dropping young players who are doing a better job than older guys?

Jones has played one good game this year, why has he managed 10 appearances?

Byrnes is a dead-set list clogger, he was chopped up by a 19 year old kid.

What was the point in Riley Bonner playing 19 games last year before getting delisted?

 

[phantom13]

The 10 were Jones, Macrae, Hill, Steele, Butler (29th birthday 3 June), Marshall, Webster, Wood, Sinclair & Wilkie.

IMO from safest to (should be) least safe in the side:

Wilkie
Sinclair
Marshall
Macrae
Steele
Wood
Webster
Butler
Hill
Jones

I would have no issue it all with Wilson, Hastie, Boxshall, Tauru and Collard in for Jones, Hill, Butler, Webster and Wood.

Seasons done, if were gonna lose by 12 goals may as well blood the youth

 

[MordySaint]

No I am saying that VFL form shouldn't automatically qualify you for AFL games, unless you believe that Southport would be a better side than St Kilda.

Where is the integrity in dropping young players who are doing a better job than older guys?

Jones has played one good game this year, why has he managed 10 appearances?

Byrnes is a dead-set list clogger, he was chopped up by a 19 year old kid.

What was the point in Riley Bonner playing 19 games last year before getting delisted?

It's bringing completely obvious the club has not a lot of intention of developing youth, they are just caught up in the weekly media cycle of single wins to boost their self perceived importance and saving their jobs for another year.

Our media team beats us into a premiership favourite frenzy after beating non travelling Dockers or a self imploding Demons. It's really quite funny to watch, knowing we will slip back to mediocrity the next week.

Casing examples are:

• Boxshall dropped after two games
• Garcia dropped two games after receiving the rising star award
• Heath never played
• Collard and Arie constantly given promotions then dropped
• I'm not even going to mention the performances of our so called senior group

But hey we have the Viking who is going to single handedly win us a premiership next week.

Then we have the weekly chat about which one of our talented players we can trade away for another role of the dice.

This game really took a lot out of me, the wry smiles in the coaching box were hard to watch and take as a lifelong supporter.

 

[The Punter]

It's bringing completely obvious the club has not a lot of intention of developing youth, they are just catch up in the weekly media cycle of single wins to boost their self perceived importance and saving their jobs for another year.

Our media team beats us into a premiership favourite frenzy after beating non travelling Dockers or a self imploding Demons. It's really quite funny to watch, knowing we will slip back to mediocrity the next week.

Casing examples are:

• Boxshall dropped after two games
• Garcia dropped two games after receiving the rising star award
• Heath never played
• Collard and Arie constantly given promotions then dropped
• I'm not even going to mention the performances of our so called senior group

But hey we have the Viking who is going to single handedly win us a premiership next week.

Then we have the weekly chat about which one of our talented players we can trade away for another role of the dice.

This game really took a lot out of me, the wry smiles in the coaching box were hard to watch and take as a lifelong supporter.

Collard played one nine consecutive game stretch this season.

 

[BrutThough]

Wilson has better numbers than both Jones & Byrnes this year. He is 19 and was subbed out in the first quarter, for what?

Ross seems to have a bigger stick for teenagers than he does for blokes ten years older.

It's okay to say we have got it wrong.

Darcy was the one pushing return to the VFL so he could work on a few things and Ross kept giving him chances to see if he could work it out at AFL level. He also wasn't subbed out in the first quarter - he was subbed out midway through the 3rd with 5 disposals after making a huge error.

Wilson and Hill have both been moved off a wing to accommodate Byrnes. I would argue a lot of Darcy's slump has come from being stuck on a forward flank in a team that struggles get the ball out of it's back half most weeks.

Darcy played more half forward than wing last year so he's spent enough time there that it cant be purely positional.

 

[MordySaint]

Darcy was the one pushing return to the VFL so he could work on a few things and Ross kept giving him chances to see if he could work it out at AFL level. He also wasn't subbed out in the first quarter - he was subbed out midway through the 3rd with 5 disposals after making a huge error.


Darcy played more half forward than wing last year so he's spent enough time there that it cant be purely positional.

What about some senior players constantly making huge errors? Only to be selected week in week out.

 

[BrutThough]

What about some senior players constantly making huge errors? Only to be selected week in week out.

If we dropped everyone who made an error, we wouldnt be able to select a full team.

And more the point, Darcy wasn't dropped due to the single error. It was a collection of things, including his own want for a circuit breaker to help his form. While he was subbed off, it sounded based on the press conference more like it was clear it wasn't working for Darcy that day and someone needed to come off so Boxshall could come it.

 

[kernelT]

Darcy was the one pushing return to the VFL so he could work on a few things and Ross kept giving him chances to see if he could work it out at AFL level. He also wasn't subbed out in the first quarter - he was subbed out midway through the 3rd with 5 disposals after making a huge error.


Darcy played more half forward than wing last year so he's spent enough time there that it cant be purely positional.

My bad about the subbing, still seemed rough given some others on the ground.

Wilson was better last year, but I'd rather see him continue to develop in the ones. Watching the VFL yesterday, it's a shit comp in poor conditions usually.

 

[The Punter]

My bad about the subbing, still seemed rough given some others on the ground.

Wilson was better last year, but I'd rather see him continue to develop in the ones. Watching the VFL yesterday, it's a shit comp in poor conditions usually.

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IMO

Wilson before Hill: all good
Wilson before Byrnes: all good
Wilson before Jones: all good keeping in mind Jones is inside/outside (so Wilson would attend more CBAs than previously)
Wilson before Wood: Wood has a very specific role I think only one other player on our list could replicate (Sharman) being a marking target/player all around the ground. I would not bring Wilson in for Wood to play that specific role

 

[phantom13]

IMO

Wilson before Hill: all good
Wilson before Byrnes: all good
Wilson before Jones: all good keeping in mind Jones is inside/outside (so Wilson would attend more CBAs than previously)
Wilson before Wood: Wood has a very specific role I think only one other player on our list could replicate (Sharman) being a marking target/player all around the ground. I would not bring Wilson in for Wood to play that specific role

Woods playing like busted ass this year so far though. He might have a specific role but hes not really doing it

 

[The Punter]

Woods playing like busted ass this year so far though. He might have a specific role but hes not really doing it

I don't agree he has been that poor. And he's had to play a lot of key forward through his first six games or so.

 

[kernelT]

Maybe Tauru will play some of that role, can't see how he fits into the backline but it will be rough to switch him forward after training and playing back.

 

[MordySaint]

IMO


Wilson before Jones: all good keeping in mind Jones is inside/outside (so Wilson would attend more CBAs than previously)

This is where the whole player development conundrum falls apart, the only reason we play Jones is if we are challenging.

We are as far from challenging as we have been in a decade, we got beaten by the worst team in the competition only three games before.

Jones plays to help the club save face from the weekly media scrap, not to develop our playing list.

 

[phantom13]

I don't agree he has been that poor. And he's had to play a lot of key forward through his first six games or so.

His last 8 games hes averaging 14 touches and 1 goal a game (which includes 3 against the tigers and 2 against the eagles).

In fact take out the Geelong game and they are basically his stats all year.

The eye tests suggest his old extra man in defense (with his running capacity) is massively diminished as well.

Well well down on form at 31... Hes right in the mix to be dropped IMO.

 

[The Punter]

Maybe Tauru will play some of that role, can't see how he fits into the backline but it will be rough to switch him forward after training and playing back.

Last year we played Wilkie, Battle and one of Cordy and Howard almost all year.

Wilkie, Caminiti and Tauru should be no problem.

 

[Ads734]

Whilst I want Wilson playing in the ones and think he’ll be our Max Holmes. He himself asked to play reserves. Ross persisted for another week. Like Pou last year. I actually think Ross wanted him to overcome the form slump in the AFL side. Regardless maybe one game is all it took. First time he’s cracked 30 touches since u18s. I always see it as an important step to become a dominant mid.

Look at Pou since this milestone in the vfl last year.

 

[The Punter]

His last 8 games hes averaging 14 touches and 1 goal a game (which includes 3 against the tigers and 2 against the eagles).

In fact take out the Geelong game and they are basically his stats all year.

The eye tests suggest his old extra man in defense (with his running capacity) is massively diminished as well.

Well well down on form at 31... Hes right in the mix to be dropped IMO.

A shame if he can never get back to his best, but understandable considering his age.

Just a shame...his St Kilda career is only 20 games short of becoming romantic.