List Mgmt. 2025 List Management 📃

[WalshistheGOAT]

I might be alone but I’m a big fan of Austin.

I think he nailed the last draft with HOF, Jagga and the Camporeale boys.

He has been good with pick ups like Cincotta, Lord and Boyd.

I want to see us get a few more shots at the draft too, how we get that capital I’m not sure because we don’t really have depth to be traded out - but he has been good at identifying talent.

My only knock on him was 23 when he gave the injury prone another year when he needed to refresh the list.

Picking players I think he's good. Building a list I think he's been woeful.

The list is just far too imbalanced.

 

[DollarsandSense]

Is TDK really enjoying playing at Carlton at the moment? We’ve won 5 games and had 7 losses this year, and 7 wins and 14 losses since July last year.

Football is a part of his life but not everything and will be his main source of income for the next 7 or 8 years. It’s not something I think he’d rely on to bring him happiness….be a miserable 12 months for him if he did.

I’d rather lose playing for Carlton than lose playing for StinKilda.

 

[Schoonerman]

Ok
HTF would McClure know what was said in a meeting between TDK and GW if the meeting happened at all??!

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Ok
HTF would McClure know what was said in a meeting between TDK and GW if the meeting happened at all??!

McClure wouldn't. He's a clown who was outcast by all his Carlton sources years ago.

Nearly every bit of 'info' he's gotten on the Blues and pretty much every other club has been proven false.

 

[GoBlues!]

I’d rather lose playing for Carlton than lose playing for StinKilda.

Surely you of all posters can see not taking all those dollars doesn’t make a lot of sense, DollarsandSense…

 

[TENACIOUS]

Our list is average outside our top talent and we lack strong leadership on and off the ground.

Leadership

we’ve been having fade-outs after strong starts for years. Voss has said they continue to work on it, but nothing changes.

It’s either

1. Voss is coaching us to come out firing in the first, then change game plan and let teams run over the top of us (doubt it)
2. Players aren’t fit enough (doubt it)
3. We have poor leaders that don’t drive standards and demand we continue take the game on (likely)
4. Players are un-coachable or refuse to take direction.

Talent (Best 22)
Would all get a game in a top 8 best 22
Cerra, Walsh, Cripps, Silvagni, Weitering, McKay, Curnow, TDK, Williams, Kemp, Newman, Hewett & McGovern

On the brink
Ollie Hollands

Wouldn’t get a game in a top 8 best 22, but play for us.
Motlop, Fogarty, Durdin, Fantasia, Binns, Boyd, White, Evans, Cottrell

About to or have fallen of a cliff
Acres, Docherty & Saad

Severely out of form
Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Weitering

Career Best Form
Silvagni, TDK, Hewett & Cerra

It’s pretty easy to see our players 15-30 aren’t good enough, to propel us to a top 4 premiership team.

 

[reubsblues]

100% fact you reckon. Have you informed Voss and co to pack their stuff and go?

I wish

 

[carlton_99]

Wouldn’t get a game in a top 8 best 22, but play for us.
Motlop, Fogarty, Durdin, Fantasia, Binns, Boyd, White, Evans, Cottrell

Outside of one or two names these are pretty much all depth pieces. You could find a similar list of names across any top 8 team. Do you think the likes of Ed Allan, Lachie Sullivan, Mason Cox, Reef McInness, Will Hoskin-Elliot, Charlie Dean + many more would get games in the best 22 of other top-8 teams? And this is arguably the best team in the comp atm.

 

[Blue Gertrude]

De Koning calls meeting to decide if incoming chief’s blueprint is right for him

While the lucrative offer from St Kilda remains highly appealing, De Koning’s decision to call the meeting with incoming Blues CEO Graham Wright has lifted hopes of him staying at Carlton.

www.theage.com.au

https://archive.md/ZEY54

Didn't realise Tom's sitting on 90 games for us....10 games to go, right??

Need the King to remain fit for father-son based reasons and give his kids an easy choice

 

[sosos]

Wrong De Koning

Oh sheesh. Thanks. Delete.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Wrong De Koning

The right one when it relates to injury & missing a month

 

[Flaggers22]

Picking players I think he's good. Building a list I think he's been woeful.

The list is just far too imbalanced.

I think most of the list problems stem from the Silvagni tenure. There's a black hole period between 2016-2019 where we picked up very little talent. When Austin came on board there was a view internally that we were ready to make the leap, so they splashed on trade and free agent acquisitions in 2020 and 2021. When Voss won the coaching job, Melbourne were the reigning premiers and Voss wanted to implement a similar gameplan, with hard bodied midfielders to overpower at contest and surge the ball towards our big key forwards. The game seems to be moving in a direction where that model doesn't yield the same results. In my opinion, this is largely due to rules the AFL implemented which opened the game up, like the 6-6-6 rule (2019-) and the "stand" rule (2021-).

From 2022 onwards, we've obtained a clearer picture of the faults in our list. Austin has addressed many of these holes with his hands tied behind his back. Our salary cap has been bloated, so we're struggling to bring in big names. Moreover, the team is consistently finishing between 10th and 5th, meaning we don't get access to the best kids.

In Voss' first year we were playing O'Brien and Setterfield as our wingers. Setterfield's wasn't a wingman and O'Brien struggled at AFL level. He replaced them with Acres and Hollands. I'm critical of Acres, but even I concede that both those players are massive upgrades as wingers. Since then he's drafted kids and recruited moneyball types to address our lack of speed, footskills and x-factor (Cincotta, Wilson, Moir, Jagga, Flynn Young, Charleson, Carroll, Fantasia, White), and not having another reliable key position defender (O'Farrell). They may or may not actually help us plug those list holes, but it's clear he's trying to address the issue, in his limited capacity to do so.

At this point in time, I think our most glaring list hole is our lack of damaging small forwards. The problem is the best ones go for an absolute premium nowadays, the good ones often go in the top 10, cost multiple firsts to trade in, and demand huge contracts. None of which we have. I think it's also possible to just have recruiting blind spots. Silvagni struggled with anyone who wasn't a key position player, Austin might struggle with smalls. How else does one explain Frankie Evans?Anyway, we might have the assets to finally address this if we move on Mckay and TDK. Who knows.

I don't absolve Austin from criticism, there's a few deals that I've been critical of. However, I think he's done more good than bad and he's been much better than his predecessor. I rate the list and I think most holes can be addressed with the players we have. We don't have a perfect list, but you don't need one to win a flag or make the top 4. I think we're being let down by our coach in a big way, and the only thing stopping others from admitting as much is that they don't want Carlton to revert to type.

I have a question for you and anyone else who thinks it's primarily a list issue: Do you think Voss is maximising our kicking efficiency and, run and carry?

Why I think he's not:

1) Our best kick plays in the VFL. Jordan Boyd is the best kick we have on our list, he's elite by competition standards. He's decent on his non preferred side, and he can kick a low, fast and pentrating drop punt with good precision. Yes, he's weak defensively, but there's been so many successful teams who have similar players (Noble, Daniel, Naicos in 2022, Coleman) who have been made the hub of their teams defensive half transition. When Boyd gets a game he's generally 3rd or 4th on totem pole for kick ins. We'd be much better off if we got 20 kicks from him per game, but his skillset doesn't seem to be valued at all.

2) We play too many inside mids. In the first 2 years of Vossyball (2022-2023) he was playing 4 contested mids on ball, now with the departure of Kennedy he's reduced that to 3 but that's still one more than most sides. The balance seems off and we have a one paced midfield. It's not helped by the fact that Walsh has the least CBAs of our mids. If it were me coaching the team, I'd use Cincotta in the short term to add a different mix to our onball brigade, and not as a tagger. He has all the traits to succeed there. He's good in the contest, he's quick so he'll be able to create separation and apply defensive pressure. He also lowers his eyes which is a bonus.

3) Inside mids shouldn't play on the wing. I've already talked about this in previous posts so I won't say much here, I love Lord but you'll kill his career if you play him on a wing. Acres' footskills aren't good enough for the requirements of the position. Are either of them elite runners by AFL standards? Ollie Hollands is.

4) You train what you play. Carlton switches the ball the least in the competition. That is not a list fault, that's a coaching directive. Which means we probably train transition play less than other teams, and train more contest work. If we are indeed training ball movement less, I'd imagine the flow on effect is that our kicking efficiency would be worse as a result. It'd probably only be a marginal effect, but probably still there nonetheless. I just can't imagine Voss' system, in its current iteration, maximising or improving a players foot skills.

I just don't think Voss is flexible enough in his approach. Good coaches experiment. I was disappointed to hear the Silvagni shift down back was player driven and not coach driven. Why was that switch obvious to me and other supporters but not the coach? I like Voss and I want him to succeed, but until he changes his methods I can't see us having success with him.

 

[RAPPA]

Outside of one or two names these are pretty much all depth pieces. You could find a similar list of names across any top 8 team. Do you think the likes of Ed Allan, Lachie Sullivan, Mason Cox, Reef McInness, Will Hoskin-Elliot, Charlie Dean + many more would get games in the best 22 of other top-8 teams? And this is arguably the best team in the comp atm.

Hence system always beats talent. Have a system in place that everybody commits to and they play their role.

 

[djw1952]

Im a bit with Red Bull on the TDK / SOS thing, I think there is an element of SOS screwing us over.
No ruckman is worth $.7M, if De Koning was at StK and we were throwing that figure at him to get him across to us I'd be filthy. Another thing Tom will need to come to terms with is the scrutiny he'll be under given his pay packet. With every ordinary game, missed goal, Turn Over, Injury etc will come heat from the StK supporters and general football public. Hope is is prepared for that.

Also being the highest paid player on their list may put him at odds with his lesser paid new team mates, as they will likely be scrutinising him as well. Watch out TDK as saints supporters are a very bitter lot that`s for sure, and would love a juicy new scapegoat!!! Just look at their whinging president

 

[Wickzki]

Also being the highest paid player on their list may put him at odds with his lesser paid new team mates, as they will likely be scrutinising him as well. Watch out TDK as saints supporters are a very bitter lot that`s for sure, and would love a juicy new scapegoat!!! Just look at their whinging president

I can't wait for the inevitable "you pay TDK this much this is what my client is worth" comparisons player managers have always and will always dish up at contract time.

Carlton suffered through this for years under our previous build. We overpaid many average and below average talents (e.g. Warnock) so what happened? Every player who thought that they were comparable to him demanded their piece of the pie.

If they sign TDK and lose NWM it wouldn't shock me in the slightest if his manager dished out a "obviously there's the go home factor but we couldn't come to contract terms" type statement and it would be accurate (if TDK is worth 1.7 to them then NSW would have to think he's worth over a million too type thing).

 

[RPCB]

Sam McClure is a clown.

But I’d like to think TDK actually did ask GW what will change at Carlton if he stays. It’s a **** lot better than listening to Cripps, Weiters, Walsh say in interviews year after year that “we’ve got to be better, “it’s on the players, “we love Michael Voss” etc.

 

[agro]

TDK basically telling Wright... If we have a new coach I'll stay

It could be decent Assistant Coaches - but having said that I doubt Graeme Wright like to be dictated to by a player.

 

[Coona Blues]

Our list is average outside our top talent and we lack strong leadership on and off the ground.

Leadership

we’ve been having fade-outs after strong starts for years. Voss has said they continue to work on it, but nothing changes.

It’s either

1. Voss is coaching us to come out firing in the first, then change game plan and let teams run over the top of us (doubt it)
2. Players aren’t fit enough (doubt it)
3. We have poor leaders that don’t drive standards and demand we continue take the game on (likely)
4. Players are un-coachable or refuse to take direction.

Talent (Best 22)
Would all get a game in a top 8 best 22
Cerra, Walsh, Cripps, Silvagni, Weitering, McKay, Curnow, TDK, Williams, Kemp, Newman, Hewett & McGovern

On the brink
Ollie Hollands

Wouldn’t get a game in a top 8 best 22, but play for us.
Motlop, Fogarty, Durdin, Fantasia, Binns, Boyd, White, Evans, Cottrell

About to or have fallen of a cliff
Acres, Docherty & Saad

Severely out of form
Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, McKay, Weitering

Career Best Form
Silvagni, TDK, Hewett & Cerra

It’s pretty easy to see our players 15-30 aren’t good enough, to propel us to a top 4 premiership team.

OK, could debate some of this, but let’s address omissions.

Elijah Hollands absolutely good enough. A bit to play out.
Haynes good enough in the short term.
Smith all but guaranteed a quality career.
Glaring omission of Cooper Lord developing beautifully.
Cowan and Carroll look like long term staples.
Cincotta is a proven role player plus a bit more
Harry O’Farrell has shown more than enough for expectation of 200 game key defender.
Pittonet and Young are capable depth at worst.
Hudson O’Keeffe is a baby in ruck or KPP terms, but has shown enough for us to be confident he is a part of the future.
Billy Wilson currently banging the door down for opportunity to provide an upgrade of pace and rebound.
Ben Camporeale screaming for opportunity, but probably a slowish burn for an inside role.
Lucas C has a bit to work on (disposal) but shown enough for optimism.
Harry Lemmey putting together a decent body of work at the lower level staking claims for a debut.
Ashton Moir has ability to burn and is starting to impact for longer in games. Watch this space.
Harry Charleson has shown enough to be optimistic for the future.
Flynn Young is a promising recent addition with plenty of assets. A few learnings needed from coaches and player. Not far off.
The Irish boys starting to put things together. Still unknown, but enough to work with if we persist.

Harry Dean and Jack Ison are probably bankers as long term pieces from the next draft. Young Gresham a chance with Clark an outside chance although to date at Akuei levels of development.

Cody Walker already a star as an underager. You will not find anyone to suggest will not be a quality player if not a full on star of the game.

With the players I have added to your list, we quickly move to a genuine AFL best 22/23 based on your above assertions.
Ideally we find a way to upgrade our small forwards a little and improve our connection incrementally. We potentially have all of the pieces, perhaps barring a more potent small forward on the list or coming. While they are not superstars, I still believe our forwards can be more effective with a modified game plan.

With the recent and pending additions, the list is not anywhere near the main cause of our issues.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Tom doesn't have to be loyal. Loyalty is very much overrated in AFL. Players have no say in where they are drafted.

Cool....now point to where I said he has to.

He has choices. If he wants the big payday, he chooses St Kilda. If he wants the best shot at a flag, he chooses somewhere like Geelong. If he wants to play with his brother, he chooses Geelong. If he wants to live and work close to the surf beach, he chooses Geelong. If he wants to be loyal to the club that has developed him, he chooses Carlton. If he wants to keep playing footy with the same group of mates, he chooses Carlton.

He'll weigh up all of those options and decide on whatever ticks the most relevant boxes for him.

I have no opinion one way or the other on which is "right" - it's none of my business.

 

[Dominator_7]

IF true, at least you know that TDK wants a shot at success and isn’t just happy with the status quo, or to plod along at the Aints swimming in cash being coached by boring old Ross

EDIT: McClure says that he contacted Wright directly and while he wasn’t prepared to publicly comment, it was confirmed that this meeting actually did take place.

 

[Bfevola]

Whoever said that Graham Wright would not like to be dictated to by a player. I certainly hope that no one in the club is so high and mighty that they cant work together with any decisions. Conversations are healthy - its not a dictatorship.

Having said that once TDK sought these conversations we have the right to say, this is out offer, we want a decision by such and such a time as we have other decisions to make.

No egos should be in a club. And one person should not be making all the decisions. What do we preach ? One team.

 

[JustaBattler]

I think most of the list problems stem from the Silvagni tenure. There's a black hole period between 2016-2019 where we picked up very little talent. When Austin came on board there was a view internally that we were ready to make the leap, so they splashed on trade and free agent acquisitions in 2020 and 2021. When Voss won the coaching job, Melbourne were the reigning premiers and Voss wanted to implement a similar gameplan, with hard bodied midfielders to overpower at contest and surge the ball towards our big key forwards. The game seems to be moving in a direction where that model doesn't yield the same results. In my opinion, this is largely due to rules the AFL implemented which opened the game up, like the 6-6-6 rule (2019-) and the "stand" rule (2021-).

From 2022 onwards, we've obtained a clearer picture of the faults in our list. Austin has addressed many of these holes with his hands tied behind his back. Our salary cap has been bloated, so we're struggling to bring in big names. Moreover, the team is consistently finishing between 10th and 5th, meaning we don't get access to the best kids.

In Voss' first year we were playing O'Brien and Setterfield as our wingers. Setterfield's wasn't a wingman and O'Brien struggled at AFL level. He replaced them with Acres and Hollands. I'm critical of Acres, but even I concede that both those players are massive upgrades as wingers. Since then he's drafted kids and recruited moneyball types to address our lack of speed, footskills and x-factor (Cincotta, Wilson, Moir, Jagga, Flynn Young, Charleson, Carroll, Fantasia, White), and not having another reliable key position defender (O'Farrell). They may or may not actually help us plug those list holes, but it's clear he's trying to address the issue, in his limited capacity to do so.

At this point in time, I think our most glaring list hole is our lack of damaging small forwards. The problem is the best ones go for an absolute premium nowadays, the good ones often go in the top 10, cost multiple firsts to trade in, and demand huge contracts. None of which we have. I think it's also possible to just have recruiting blind spots. Silvagni struggled with anyone who wasn't a key position player, Austin might struggle with smalls. How else does one explain Frankie Evans?Anyway, we might have the assets to finally address this if we move on Mckay and TDK. Who knows.

I don't absolve Austin from criticism, there's a few deals that I've been critical of. However, I think he's done more good than bad and he's been much better than his predecessor. I rate the list and I think most holes can be addressed with the players we have. We don't have a perfect list, but you don't need one to win a flag or make the top 4. I think we're being let down by our coach in a big way, and the only thing stopping others from admitting as much is that they don't want Carlton to revert to type.

I have a question for you and anyone else who thinks it's primarily a list issue: Do you think Voss is maximising our kicking efficiency and, run and carry?

Why I think he's not:

1) Our best kick plays in the VFL. Jordan Boyd is the best kick we have on our list, he's elite by competition standards. He's decent on his non preferred side, and he can kick a low, fast and pentrating drop punt with good precision. Yes, he's weak defensively, but there's been so many successful teams who have similar players (Noble, Daniel, Naicos in 2022, Coleman) who have been made the hub of their teams defensive half transition. When Boyd gets a game he's generally 3rd or 4th on totem pole for kick ins. We'd be much better off if we got 20 kicks from him per game, but his skillset doesn't seem to be valued at all.

2) We play too many inside mids. In the first 2 years of Vossyball (2022-2023) he was playing 4 contested mids on ball, now with the departure of Kennedy he's reduced that to 3 but that's still one more than most sides. The balance seems off and we have a one paced midfield. It's not helped by the fact that Walsh has the least CBAs of our mids. If it were me coaching the team, I'd use Cincotta in the short term to add a different mix to our onball brigade, and not as a tagger. He has all the traits to succeed there. He's good in the contest, he's quick so he'll be able to create separation and apply defensive pressure. He also lowers his eyes which is a bonus.

3) Inside mids shouldn't play on the wing. I've already talked about this in previous posts so I won't say much here, I love Lord but you'll kill his career if you play him on a wing. Acres' footskills aren't good enough for the requirements of the position. Are either of them elite runners by AFL standards? Ollie Hollands is.

4) You train what you play. Carlton switches the ball the least in the competition. That is not a list fault, that's a coaching directive. Which means we probably train transition play less than other teams, and train more contest work. If we are indeed training ball movement less, I'd imagine the flow on effect is that our kicking efficiency would be worse as a result. It'd probably only be a marginal effect, but probably still there nonetheless. I just can't imagine Voss' system, in its current iteration, maximising or improving a players foot skills.

I just don't think Voss is flexible enough in his approach. Good coaches experiment. I was disappointed to hear the Silvagni shift down back was player driven and not coach driven. Why was that switch obvious to me and other supporters but not the coach? I like Voss and I want him to succeed, but until he changes his methods I can't see us having success with him.

1. Boyd is not Carltons 'best kick'. Carroll a 5 gamer has him covered (which is why Carroll is playing) as does McGovern, Williams, McKay, Curnow as field kicks who do damage as does Fantasia when he is playing...
2. Who would you drop for the too many inside mids- Walsh has dropped himself through injury ..and the Club looked deep and found Motlop as a 'faster' option who is adept at running over the ball and out of any contest or just coming in aa tad late - every time or just being run around - every time...
3. Who plays on the wing is who is available to play - wanna go with Binns week in week out- good luck with that
4. Carlton switches the ball least because it has the worst field kicking ability in the competition- not that Voss hasnt encouraged them - the WC showed they cant even hold a standard kick to kick when unmarked ...


Trying to shovel Carlton's faults all on to Voss ...yeah nahhh not. buyer of this BS.

 

[JustaBattler]

Hence system always beats talent. Have a system in place that everybody commits to and they play their role.

You cant run any system with a lack of talent to run any system - watch Carlton try and play kick to kick - even unmarked it breaks down...system pigs aaaa*e if you diont have the talent.

 

[Dominator_7]

I think that any manager of an organisation should want the input of those at the coalface

 

[RAPPA]

You cant run any system with a lack of talent to run any system - watch Carlton try and play kick to kick - even unmarked it breaks down...system pigs aaaa*e if you diont have the talent.

Yeah, they play like that’s a foreign concept because at training all they do is play Pictionary. The only discernible “system” they’re running out of Ikon Park is see ball, get ball, kick ball. Oh yeah I forgot there’s also “kick it to the two talls”.