Autopsy Round 15 - Collingwood v St Kilda

[Mav3rick]

Just on Chito.

Having a good season. But in the scheme of things will be seen as a nearly season because of his goal kicking.

Slightly less disposals compared to 2023. But more shots at goal and on track to exceed what he kicked that year. Averaging More goal assists and score involvements.

Guarantee the coaches would be really stoked with what he's doing, the goal kicking is really frustrating but it'll get better. His competitiveness is second to none. Important to remember he didn't grow up playing as a key forward, still a very new role for him and he's still only 21.

 

[Rogue Warrior]

This narrative is pathetic. And that free kick to Daicos early was insanely soft. He should be fined for staging. King makes grandiose statements about the ongoing treatment daicos got, yet proceeds to play the same 2 clips on repeat.

‘Step too far’: Why Daicos tag could prompt AFL call after fiery duel with Saint

‘Step too far’: Why Daicos tag could prompt AFL call after fiery duel with Saint

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[stavro#4]

If Daicos had have the same 35 as NAS playing off half back in close losing side, he’d get the 3. But he’s darling Nick.

Whilst I agree on the “Darling Nick” rhetoric.

He still had 30 touches. He still had 9 score involvements. He still had 2 direct goal assists and he still kicked the likely sealer.

Don’t really see the need to rubbish anyone on last nights showing. Their class got us in the end. We didn’t disgrace ourselves.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

It's sadly at the point where I don't get excited about Owens taking a mark i50. Chalk it up mentally as a behind before he's kicked it. Surely he can fix it because he's actually a great kick when he isn't taking a set shot.

Mitch changed his run in routine 3 times last night, he is a kid who has no idea how to kick the ball. Its like watching Max King you simply cant rely on them to even score let alone put it through the goals. If its deflating for us what do you think it does to his team mates!!!

I understand they want his marking presence forward, but at least have his team mates run past him when he marks the ball to give us a chance of scoring.

Im with the masses we have a captain who has checked out emotionally, how about playing Mitch through the middle. The guy is a bull in close so why not use his best attributes. His on ball kicking cant be any worse than some of Marshall's scrub kicks foward or Steele's recent efforts. Macrae was meant to be an elite kick but if he has to kick over 30 metres his kicks are rubbish also.

I also agree with #SaintBill our coaching group have had the pants pulled down in recent weeks. A terrible defensive zone that lets our lazy players off the hook, no imigination and a complete shut down on throwing the magnets around.

 

[Jade Buddha]

So a question around the tagger. Is it also allowable to scrag or impede the tagger by other players to support their player being tagged? Or are the umpires too focused on the original tag role and ignore anything that happens to a tagger?

 

[stavro#4]

Are you suggesting impact forward of the centre is automatically superior to impact in the back half?

That's fairly contentious I would've thought

Another way of looking at this, is take NWM out of St Kilda and we probably lose by 50 or more. It's no longer a tight contest into the 4th, because he was so crucial in getting us back into it

Take any of those 3 out of Collingwood and Collingwood still wins comfortably.

To be clear, I reckon there was no obvious BOG but Nas is certainly in the discussion.

I don’t think it’s contentious at all to say if 2 sets of players had 30 touches you likely want the guy who is having the majority of his forward of the centre.

Facts are Daicos likely kicked the sealer to cap off a good night getting heavily tagged.

Lipinski kicked 2 - each time stopping one of our runs. Plus had it 20 times.

Cameron was the dominant big man gave Marshall a bath in the first half.

Nas was the best saint. But the other 3 were the difference on the night. I’m not contesting we get smashed without nas. I’m just purely saying that the other 3 were match winners on the night

 

[The Jack]

Whilst I agree on the “Darling Nick” rhetoric.

He still had 30 touches. He still had 9 score involvements. He still had 2 direct goal assists and he still kicked the likely sealer.

Don’t really see the need to rubbish anyone on last nights showing. Their class got us in the end. We didn’t disgrace ourselves.

Who’s rubbishing anyone? Just pointing out that if Nas was Nick, with the game Nas had last night, he would be in the votes. I can guarantee it. He’s the AFL and media’s love child.

Nick btw was great last night and deserves votes.

 

[jumperfan]

Funny how they’ll whine about a tagger tagging until the cows come home but they’ll ignore McStay tripping NWM, which used to be a suspension 10 years ago.

 

[stavro#4]

Who’s rubbishing anyone? Just pointing out that if Nas was Nick, with the game Nas had last night, he would be in the votes. I can guarantee it. He’s the AFL and media’s love child.

Nick btw was great last night and deserves votes.

But votes generally go to the winning team. It isn’t some slight against Nas or our boys is my point. He was likely the 4th or equal third best guy on the ground.

We needed a few more to go along with nas wood and Owens last night.

 

[beside the seaside]

Daicos played a really good game for them. Having said that there have been taggers for ages, he won the battle I don't really see the need to have this massive go at Windhager, Daicos got some really soft frees as well.

It'd be nice to know what the rule is on backchatting for a 50 because I swear every player does it and then Marshall randomly gets pinged. Also the 50 against Nas was laughable considering a Pies player did literally the same thing to him, assuming it was play on but the umpire let it go. Nas does it and it's 50.

End of the day it's all meaningless, we are a bottom four side this year, but I'm finding the umpiring consistently makes the games tough to watch.

Our number one challenge going forward is how do we help our older guys to basically be role-players and not the guys we rely on. We need to transition to a group of young leaders that actually consistently win us games, with help from older guys. Looks like we are targeting some mid-age players, we desperately need that if we want to be anywhere near the 8 in the next few years. Alternative is waiting for a few years to see if the current kids make it but there'll be pain in between.

I think we could be bottom 2 this year if the Tigers get a few more wins. Our draw looks awful from here.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

A stress fracture injury - overloading would be just as much on the player as it is on the club.

Unless you are arguing the club was cracking the whip on him and he was screaming in pain.

As I said in my first post. The biggest indicator in these types of injuries is player feedback.

I think we can all guess with some accuracy what Phillipou would have been saying and doing.

We have professional physios/doctors at the club who should be able to make the call to overrule a 20 year old kid who says he's fine to return early from injury.

Ross mentioned them, and that they were concerned about him coming back so soon. Instead, their concerns were ignored and he unsuccessfully attempted to play injured for the second time in a row.

That is mismanagement

 

[The Jack]

But votes generally go to the winning team. It isn’t some slight against Nas or our boys is my point. He was likely the 4th or equal third best guy on the ground.

We needed a few more to go along with nas wood and Owens last night.

Look I agree with you but, particularity late in the season, when brownlows are a constant discussion and your name is Daicos or Cripps you get votes if you play Nas’s game last night in a losing side. Possibly 3.

 

[stavro#4]

Daicos played a really good game for them. Having said that there have been taggers for ages, he won the battle I don't really see the need to have this massive go at Windhager, Daicos got some really soft frees as well.

It'd be nice to know what the rule is on backchatting for a 50 because I swear every player does it and then Marshall randomly gets pinged. Also the 50 against Nas was laughable considering a Pies player did literally the same thing to him, assuming it was play on but the umpire let it go. Nas does it and it's 50.

End of the day it's all meaningless, we are a bottom four side this year, but I'm finding the umpiring consistently makes the games tough to watch.

Our number one challenge going forward is how do we help our older guys to basically be role-players and not the guys we rely on. We need to transition to a group of young leaders that actually consistently win us games, with help from older guys. Looks like we are targeting some mid-age players, we desperately need that if we want to be anywhere near the 8 in the next few years. Alternative is waiting for a few years to see if the current kids make it but there'll be pain in between.

I think we could be bottom 2 this year if the Tigers get a few more wins. Our draw looks awful from here.

You trade your older guys and commit to a purely youth narrative as opposed to the “dual narrative”.

Our first pick looks like it gets a genuine midfielder. Target The giants first pick (for Steele)and it has you in the frame for A key forward or another mid.

Marshall currency probably gets you a slider or you shop it for a Bergman.

Fincher comes in. Hastie Garcia Boxshall Collard all have something.

If the bench goes 5 deep instead of a sub. You can gift games to Dodson

And ultimately you still maintain a shit ton of cap flexibility.

We have been happy to lost one best 22 a season under Ross. I’d like to see us commit now.

 

[stavro#4]

Look I agree with you but, particularity late in the season, when brownlows are a constant discussion and your name is Daicos or Cripps you get votes if you play Nas’s game last night in a losing side. Possibly 3.

Maybe. But that’s media narrative.

I’d like to think I was unbiased by saying those 3 pies were the best 3 on the ground.

 

[beside the seaside]

You trade your older guys and commit to a purely youth narrative as opposed to the “dual narrative”.

Our first pick looks like it gets a genuine midfielder. Target The giants first pick (for Steele)and it has you in the frame for A key forward or another mid.

Marshall currency probably gets you a slider or you shop it for a Bergman.

Fincher comes in. Hastie Garcia Boxshall Collard all have something.

If the bench goes 5 deep instead of a sub. You can gift games to Dodson

And ultimately you still maintain a shit ton of cap flexibility.

We have been happy to lost one best 22 a season under Ross. I’d like to see us commit now.

I don't see GWS giving up a first for Steele. If they did that then that's definitely the type of trade I'd be looking at for sure.

 

[Teflon]

What's going on with Higgo? Can't play with Butler in the side as well? First 10 games he was on AA pace with 28 goals at 3.5 shots a game. Last 4 games he's kicked 2 goals at 1.5 shots a game.

Refuses to lead up at the ball carrier
I can not understand why a small forward line isn’t zig zagging creating space all over the place and hitting up leads instead of waiting for the obligatory long bomb to 20 out FFs only to have oppo monster gobble it up. It’s just dumb footy
Against Cats earlier season we looked dangerous - changed angles of ball coming around the 50 arc, hit players on short leads for a better shot at goal. No bombing
I just don’t get why that forward line plays that way.
Clark won a rare clean clearance from stoppage ….streams to 50 …..no one came at him WTF is that ?

 

[Teflon]

I did enjoy Tauru smashing Mihocek’s face into the turf at the end of marking contest. Real old school.

He’s got a nasty streak in him the kid you can see it ….bring it on….wait till he puts on some size…frightening

 

[Teflon]

What we REALLY need to prioritise is a kicking coach for Owens.
He is seriously deflating as a fan - I can only imagine what it does to his teammates.

He gets the ball which is great. But I’m only ever confident when he’s having a snap. It’s a real shame because he could be a winner for us.

Even snapping ….he kicked the ball 40m straight up in the air off his snap last night …holds the footy like a robot …not natural at all …..I think he’s a mid tbh

 

[Nutsngum]

We have professional physios/doctors at the club who should be able to make the call to overrule a 20 year old kid who says he's fine to return early from injury.

Ross mentioned them, and that they were concerned about him coming back so soon. Instead, their concerns were ignored and he unsuccessfully attempted to play injured for the second time in a row.

That is mismanagement

He trained fully the entire week. Sport science isnt even close to being a perfect science, having a "concern" over an injury doesnt make that injury any less or more healed. The best way to see that is if the player can get through training or not, which Pou did.

 

[The Jack]

Mitchitos kicking at goal

Think it might be rubbing off on Mason and Higgins now.

I can’t comprehend he can make it to this stage in his career, and he’s a bloody good player, with that atrocious, robotic action. He could be a star.

Will cost us big time, in a big game, down the track.

 

[SaintJunior]

Sorry, who is the senior coach again?

Fyfe and Danger are poor kicks. 2 of the best mids in the last 20 years.

For a side that cant win a contested ball, its amazing we have ruled out the 1 competitive beast in the side from playing as a mid.

I dont care who is responsible, Lyon, Harvey, Enright, collectively they have had an atricious season. Of our 5 wins, 3 of them the opposition was coming home hard and we fell over the line. Could easily be 2 and 12. Not even close in our losses. The loss to Carlton who had no bench for a half was as bad a coaching performance as I have ever seen.

We roll up every week with midfield rotations of Steele, Macrae, Clark etc.

This is an unininspired coaching group, that needs to massively find something or they can all leave as far as I am concerned.

Last time I checked it was Ross.

Reporting Harvey’s view as the line coach, you constantly blame Lyon for everything at least now you are including the whole coaching panel.

Personally I would not have extended Lyons contract but the facts are we have a crap midfield that is where games are won and yes Owens could go in there but the midfield coach does not want him in there .

We won contested ball last night it was not the issue but let’s say it was, would Owens potentially help with it then the answer is yes as he is a contested beast .

But I see our midfield issues as the following

Ball use is poor we miss too many targets or bomb it . Does Mitch help with that don’t think so as he is a poor kick.

Lack of explosion from stoppage Does Mitch help with that don’t think so as he is not explosive . This is two fold as we don’t have the explosion we so often kick off one to two steps and as a result bomb it. Macrae is a prime example gets the ball and kicks off one step rather than driving out of the stoppage .

Slow midfield so not only can we not explode from the stoppage we cannot go with opposition that can , Beau Mc an example last night . Also means when we are woeful defensively as we are too slow to go with opposition hence the constant amount of unattended marks and scoring chains the opposition mids get. We get killed on the spread from the stoppage . Mitch is not going to help with that.

To mention that teams were coming hard at us in our wins is irrelevant just as it would be if we came home hard in the last quarter and still lost simply a narrative to be negative .

Owens who we all love for his competitive nature has a flaw his kicking is horrendous . Agree re Fyfe and Dangerfield not being great kicks but both are better than Owens and have other attributes that he does not have . No shame on Mitch as the other two have been superstars. Personally if Harvey says he is not a mid them I am prepared to back his judgement as he knows what it takes .

Lyon and the coaching group are one component and fair enough to question them but there are multitude other reasons why we are where we are .

Coaches can only do so much , not a lot you can do if player a can’t not a handball form five metres away it can’t hit the side of the barn by foot.

Really think people are under estimating the impact of our lack of a key back and key forward on our overall ball movement and ability to defend .

I agree that our midfield mix is not working they are as slow as a wet weak but we don’t have a heap of options which is not coaching panel issue we don’t have the cattle due to our apparent inability to draft a top end mid. Would love to see Boxshall and Garcia get some more game time but I don’t think either address the issues as both are poor kicks .

As for the Carlton loss , it was a pathetic performance was it coach related or was it just slow dumb footballers bombing the ball which was once again contributed to the fact that we have no marking power at the moment.

Think we are actually in agreeable re most of it just have a different level of weighting as to who is at fault .

 

[PJays]

Nas was the best saint. But the other 3 were the difference on the night. I’m not contesting we get smashed without nas. I’m just purely saying that the other 3 were match winners on the night

They were each match winners because of the other 2- and their 20 other teammates on the night.

Nas wasn't a "match winner" only because he didn't have 2 other guys starring in his team- or sufficient collective performance from the remainder of the team.

This is a good demonstration of why the obsession with giving individual accolades based on team performance- in a sport with 46 players taking the field - makes little sense.

Again I'm not suggesting Nas was BOG- just that the comment about "he wasn't a match winner" isn't a rational way of analysing it.

Nas could've had another 5 or 10 disposals, and a goal- and been clearly BOG- but still not been a "match winner" because his team still would've lost.

 

[70s sainter]

Are our medical team up to the job? Questions need to be asked over summer you’d hope

Exactly. Also why has it taken 3 operations to take king to the place in Adelaide which has new scanning technology to find out what is wrong exactly . Baffling. Were down the bottom with that kind of stuff

 

[Teflon]

Last time I checked it was Ross.

Reporting Harvey’s view as the line coach, you constantly blame Lyon for everything at least now you are including the whole coaching panel.

Personally I would not have extended Lyons contract but the facts are we have a crap midfield that is where games are won and yes Owens could go in there but the midfield coach does not want him in there .

We won contested ball last night it was not the issue but let’s say it was, would Owens potentially help with it then the answer is yes as he is a contested beast .

But I see our midfield issues as the following

Ball use is poor we miss too many targets or bomb it . Does Mitch help with that don’t think so as he is a poor kick.

Lack of explosion from stoppage Does Mitch help with that don’t think so as he is not explosive . This is two fold as we don’t have the explosion we so often kick off one to two steps and as a result bomb it. Macrae is a prime example gets the ball and kicks off one step rather than driving out of the stoppage .

Slow midfield so not only can we not explode from the stoppage we cannot go with opposition that can , Beau Mc an example last night . Also means when we are woeful defensively as we are too slow to go with opposition hence the constant amount of unattended marks and scoring chains the opposition mids get. We get killed on the spread from the stoppage . Mitch is not going to help with that.

To mention that teams were coming hard at us in our wins is irrelevant just as it would be if we came home hard in the last quarter and still lost simply a narrative to be negative .

Owens who we all love for his competitive nature has a flaw his kicking is horrendous . Agree re Fyfe and Dangerfield not being great kicks but both are better than Owens and have other attributes that he does not have . No shame on Mitch as the other two have been superstars. Personally if Harvey says he is not a mid them I am prepared to back his judgement as he knows what it takes .

Lyon and the coaching group are one component and fair enough to question them but there are multitude other reasons why we are where we are .

Coaches can only do so much , not a lot you can do if player a can’t not a handball form five metres away it can’t hit the side of the barn by foot.

Really think people are under estimating the impact of our lack of a key back and key forward on our overall ball movement and ability to defend .

I agree that our midfield mix is not working they are as slow as a wet weak but we don’t have a heap of options which is not coaching panel issue we don’t have the cattle due to our apparent inability to draft a top end mid. Would love to see Boxshall and Garcia get some more game time but I don’t think either address the issues as both are poor kicks .

As for the Carlton loss , it was a pathetic performance was it coach related or was it just slow dumb footballers bombing the ball which was once again contributed to the fact that we have no marking power at the moment.

Think we are actually in agreeable re most of it just have a different level of weighting as to who is at fault .

Could not agree more we lack midfielder pace away from stoppage and Owens won’t solve that. He will help contested but with MCrae Steele inside plus Clark you kind feel the issue is once it’s outside and how we move it away
It’s why when NAS does go in there it’s a different look …he can run the lines and use it I would like to see Hall given a run as that outside stoppage player also …smart user not slow
True to say even Box or Garcia don’t really help there …Box is Steele replacement for mine Garcia who knows
Pies like Dogs flicked out wide a few times last night and just ran on to it knowing someone’s going to be there while our guys got sucked into the contest a bit
IF we had someone with Horne Francis pack hitting pace that would make a huge difference….sigh ..

 

[Silkie]

Just turned on GWS Gold Coast pregame, surprise surprise they were talking about Daicos and Windy.

Ben Dixon

Ben Dixon

Age

48

Ht

188cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.8

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.4

3star

G

1.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

10.4

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.4

5star

and Derm were actually a lot more levelheaded about it than we heard last night. Dixon said you only cross a line on a tag when it's a reportable offense, and Derm said in an era where midfielders are allowed to play their own bruise-free game, a tag is an exciting challenge. He said Windy played it well, and Daicos therefore did really well to have the game he had. Balanced and fair assessment I'd say.