List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion

[Johnny Bananas]

I do worry a little that if we bring in Draper, Henry Smith might decide to walk when his contract ends. Are we really going to play two rucks regularly along with three tall forwards? If it's just one ruck in the side, Draper is going to be paid like a #1, is in his prime and will be here for the next five years. At least O’Brien is almost 30, cheaper and probably only lasts 2-3 years more.  Draper is a better player than O'Brien though.

 

[Section 5]

Below from footywire

REILLY O'BRIEN
Age: 29yr 10mth


................................................
SAM DRAPER
Age: 26yr 8mth

 

[mpal6]

I do worry a little that if we bring in Draper, Henry Smith might decide to walk when his contract ends. Are we really going to play two rucks regularly along with three tall forwards? If it's just one ruck in the side, Draper is going to be paid like a #1, is in his prime and will be here for the next five years. At least O’Brien is almost 30, cheaper and probably only lasts 2-3 years more.  Draper is a better player than O'Brien though.

Smith going down this year has left us in a really bad spot in terms of succession plan. Ideally he should've taken over this year and we rotate Fort off the list and get a second ruck like Ned Reeves. Instead we have to now try for a first ruck to secure our immediate chances as well.

I haven't given up on hipwood CHB yet. With Payne down for 12 months and Lester turning 33 this august - we have an opportunity to get Hipwood play in defense and set him up in the off season - alongside Harris and Dizzy.

That opens up tall forward spot which can be either ruck forward or some one like Gallop next year.

 

[M Malice]

The saints are offering everyone $1.7m pa. Sounds like a sustainable way to build a list. Damn you Brisbane lions.

Saints will have 3-4 players(Rowell/De Koning/Aleer/Oliver) on 2 Million per season and then stock up the rest of their list with Retzlaff, Dalziell, Watts, Hammelmann, Bartlett, Bell, Pask, Uosis types... sure fire recipe for success.

 

[Elixuh]

The downside of O’Brien is that he looks like Frankenstein’s monster.

 

[BangyBangy]

Saints will have 3-4 players(Rowell/De Koning/Aleer/Oliver) on 2 Million per season and then stock up the rest of their list with Retzlaff, Dalziell, Watts, Hammelmann, Bartlett, Bell, Pask, Uosis types... sure fire recipe for success.

Not dissimilar to Richmonds. Cotchin, Rance, Dusty, Reiwoldt & 18 B grade role players

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Smith going down this year has left us in a really bad spot in terms of succession plan. Ideally he should've taken over this year and we rotate Fort off the list and get a second ruck like Ned Reeves. Instead we have to now try for a first ruck to secure our immediate chances as well.

Fort is showing this year that he's a perfectly adequate #1 ruck. He'll never be top 5 in the competition but he's good enough to keep us going right now. I'm fine with rotating him and Smith, and perhaps adding another veteran for a cheap price.

I haven't given up on hipwood CHB yet. With Payne down for 12 months and Lester turning 33 this august - we have an opportunity to get Hipwood play in defense and set him up in the off season - alongside Harris and Dizzy.

That opens up tall forward spot which can be either ruck forward or some one like Gallop next year.

I don't mind the idea in theory, but it's just not going to happen in practice. Doedee is still around to succeed Lester, Dizzy covers Payne, Joyce covers Dizzy, and Eric likely just stays forward.

 

[Tom14]

The downside of O’Brien is that he looks like Frankenstein’s monster.

The downside of O'Brien is that he might appear on Tredrea's podcast.

 

[Elixuh]

The downside of O'Brien is that he might appear on Tredrea's podcast.

That too.

 

[Nathan Barley]

The downside of O'Brien is that he might appear on Tredrea's podcast.

How gold and coins count towards the salary cap?

 

[Elixuh]

How gold and coins count towards the salary cap?

Like Tredrea the person named ‘Riley obrien’ doesn’t legally exist, therefore he is not capable of being paid. We get him for free.

 

[twhowler]

Fages said it on Agenda Setters the other night

Thanks

Well if it’s truly degenerative then yeah you’d think this year or next his last. Part of his value is just going 100%. Bloody though break for him could have had another 3-4 years at $500k plus.

I guess for Smith it’s theoretically an opportunity, but we have seen so little of him it’s hard know what he is capable of so we might be tempted to just grab a readymade.

Like others i agree Fort looks solid. I’d be comfortable with another cheap back-up and keeping money for other players. That said if we can’t get Allen, then having a crack at Draper might be worth it.

Marshall would cost a lot at the draft table presumably?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Below from footywire

REILLY O'BRIEN
Age: 29yr 10mth

View attachment 2352307
................................................
SAM DRAPER
Age: 26yr 8mth

View attachment 2352304

I had a look at some more advanced stats over on Wheelo Ratings. I realised when comparing them that they're fundamentally playing two different roles: O'Brien is a pure ruck who attends 80% of ruck contests in a game, whereas Draper is a ruck/forward (leaning towards ruck) who only attends around 50% per game. So I looked at the top pure rucks in the competition (Gawn, Xerri) and top ruck/forwards (Jackson, Tom De Koning) over 2024 and 2025 to see what sets them apart.

And the answer is... it's complicated. Each ruck contributes in a different way and each has their own weapons. Xerri is a demon at pressuring and tackling. Gawn is the king for contested and intercept marking. Jackson is great at disposal efficiency. De Koning doesn't really have a weak spot, he's quite good at both positions.

But there are a few things that they're all good at: getting a lot of the ball, contested possessions, clearances, gaining first possession out of ruck contests, ground ball gets, marking and score involvements. The pure rucks get plenty of rebound 50s and the ruck/forwards get plenty of inside 50s (and Gawn gets both). They all have at least passable disposal efficiency. And everyone except Jackson is absolutely dominating the rest of the competition in ruck hard ball gets this year, and it isn't close (Jackson has Darcy taking a lot of ruck contests from him though).

What about Draper and O'Brien? Obviously they're going to be lesser compared to the best, but neither are very impressive at most of the stats I mentioned above. They both do have weapons: Draper is good at forward craft, inside 50s and contested marking, O'Brien with defensive pressure and spoils. But Draper is a bit better at the contested ball, kicking efficiency and the key stat of ruck hard ball gets.

We might ask, which area of the ground do we want our ruck to give us an extra boost in? If it's forward, Draper is better, he's like a discount store Luke Jackson. If it's defensively, O'Brien is better, he's like a discount store Mark Blicavs. If it's in the middle of the contests, it's neither of them, we should go for someone like Marc Pittonet if Carlton keep De Koning.

 

[Section 5]

I mentioned before i don't like Draper, but the club is linked to him, and these things tend to play out.
We are also linked to Allen who i also don't really like. Lions are likely to get one or both.

The club usually plays any senior player on good money they bring to the club.
I have no doubt Doedee would have played at the expense of likely Lester, but injury stopped that happening.
Lester has been great, and we won a premiership with him playing. Sliding doors moment.

Let's say we get both of Draper and Allen and history shows we will play them.
Who misses out from the KPF.
Draper not a proven pure ruck unless we try and make him one, so most likely he replaces Day.
Allen comes into the side and replaces Who? It won't be Morris so that leaves Hippy.
Hippy could go to defense but that would be a waste of a proven goalkicker

KPF forwards we have now: Morris, Day Hippy
KPF forwards next year: Morris, Draper Allen

I much prefer what we have now.
With Fort ruck and Smith and Gallop in the VFL. McInerney well who would know.

Now if they play Draper pure ruck the KPF would be Morris, Hippy and Allen F/R. Still prefer what we have now.

 

[Tom14]

I mentioned before i don't like Draper, but the club is linked to him, and these things tend to play out.
We are also linked to Allen who i also don't really like. Lions are likely to get one or both.

The club usually plays any senior player on good money they bring to the club.
I have no doubt Doedee would have played at the expense of likely Lester, but injury stopped that happening.
Lester has been great, and we won a premiership with him playing. Sliding doors moment.

Let's say we get both of Draper and Allen and history shows we will play them.
Who misses out from the KPF.
Draper not a proven pure ruck unless we try and make him one, so most likely he replaces Day.
Allen comes into the side and replaces Who? It won't be Morris so that leaves Hippy.
Hippy could go to defense but that would be a waste of a proven goalkicker

KPF forwards we have now: Morris, Day Hippy
KPF forwards next year: Morris, Draper Allen

I much prefer what we have now.
With Fort ruck and Smith and Gallop in the VFL. McInerney well who would know.

I do not think that Draper would be playing forward if he was recruited.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Hippy could go to defense but that would be a waste of a proven goalkicker

While that's true, Hippy is a far better kick from general play than taking set shots. Does that tell us he's better off using his field kick rather than having him aim at goal?

I do not think that Draper would be playing forward if he was recruited.

I agree, he'd be primary ruck. I have two concerns though.

1. What if Smith outplays him? Do we just have an expensive VFL player then?
2. If Draper does establish himself as first ruck, who relieves him? Is the club really going to risk Allen's knees in ruck contests?

 

[Tom14]

While that's true, Hippy is a far better kick from general play than taking set shots. Does that tell us he's better off using his field kick rather than having him aim at goal?


I agree, he'd be primary ruck. I have two concerns though.

1. What if Smith outplays him? Do we just have an expensive VFL player then?
2. If Draper does establish himself as first ruck, who relieves him? Is the club really going to risk Allen's knees in ruck contests?

I wish I only had 2 concerns about draper

 

[Sanchez365]

While that's true, Hippy is a far better kick from general play than taking set shots. Does that tell us he's better off using his field kick rather than having him aim at goal?


I agree, he'd be primary ruck. I have two concerns though.

1. What if Smith outplays him? Do we just have an expensive VFL player then?
2. If Draper does establish himself as first ruck, who relieves him? Is the club really going to risk Allen's knees in ruck contests?

It does seem like the idea of Allen and Draper is pretty wild. It makes more sense for us that we are only seriously into one of them, rather then both, with Allen seemingly the more obvious one, as ruck forward is clearly a bigger need.

If we got both, our depth profile for talls would look like:

Rucks: Draper, McInerny, Fort, Smith
KPF: Hipwood, Morris, Allen, Gallop, Lloyd, Ryan

That list is basically the bare minimum you want for a team that plays 3 KPF and 1 Ruck. Plus there is an expectation that McInerny might be done as well.

So for your first question, with this potential setup, we are one injury away from Smith getting games. I think he will most likely start as a forward ruck, similar to how McInerny was introduced.

To your second question, i doubt we would have the interest in Allen that we do if we didn't see him as a pinch hit ruck option. Unless the interest in Draper is because we are cooling on Allen.

I'm pretty bullish on Draper being able to go up a level by playing as a permenant ruck. Fages is also a big fan of playera with multiple strings to their bow, so I can see why he's being targeted. Overpaying for a ruck though is always a risk.

 

[mpal6]

Fort is showing this year that he's a perfectly adequate #1 ruck. He'll never be top 5 in the competition but he's good enough to keep us going right now. I'm fine with rotating him and Smith, and perhaps adding another veteran for a cheap price.


I don't mind the idea in theory, but it's just not going to happen in practice. Doedee is still around to succeed Lester, Dizzy covers Payne, Joyce covers Dizzy, and Eric likely just stays forward.

I'll believe in Doedee when he gets on the park for our best 22.

While Fort seems adequate for now, he doesn't help us future proof say the upcoming years with our next wave of midfield coming through. I thought Smith will be that player but haven't seen it so far yet. We have just a solo fit ruck at this stage doing the job who is also the oldest ruck in the list. I think we need to address the gap here.

Our plan to roll with Big O and Fort while grooming Smith to takeover looked good at the beginning of 2025. Now Smith has been out for 10 weeks and still trying to establish himself, Big O has that new back issue which limits him from main ruck duties and we only have Fort unfortunately.

 

[Nathan Barley]

I'd be happy to back Smith in as our number 1 ruck next season with Fort as backup and then pick up a mature ager as further backup

Or stick with the same 3 if Oscar gets his back right but pump games into Smith

Fort seems very durable.

Shame it's just a bit late in the season now to play Smith. Unless there's an injury to Day, could be an opportunity

Not bothered by Draper. Would probably rather sit on the cap space and see who else is available

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I'll believe in Doedee when he gets on the park for our best 22.

Fine, but I give that much higher odds than Hippy being moved to defence full-time.

While Fort seems adequate for now, he doesn't help us future proof say the upcoming years with our next wave of midfield coming through. I thought Smith will be that player but haven't seen it so far yet.

Again, watch his game against Richmond, which has highlights posted here:

List Mgmt. - 2025 List Management Discussion

We are trying to compete with Geelong on who can collect maximum free agents for next to nothing trades. I think we'll be ahead if we get Draper and Allen. Hopefully Geelong don't pick up more this off-season and make us chase again. May I suggest including farming land in your remuneration...

www.bigfooty.com

If we didn't at least give him the opportunity and he goes elsewhere and lights it up, we'll be kicking ourselves.

We have just a solo fit ruck at this stage doing the job who is also the oldest ruck in the list. I think we need to address the gap here.

My point is the gap can be addressed for less than what Draper will cost in salary cap. If the club feel they can manage it all then I'm happy with that, they've done a good job so far, though I'd rather not have expensive VFL players.

Our plan to roll with Big O and Fort while grooming Smith to takeover looked good at the beginning of 2025. Now Smith has been out for 10 weeks and still trying to establish himself, Big O has that new back issue which limits him from main ruck duties and we only have Fort unfortunately.

This season isn't over yet.

 

[mpal6]

Fine, but I give that much higher odds than Hippy being moved to defence full-time.


Again, watch his game against Richmond, which has highlights posted here:

List Mgmt. - 2025 List Management Discussion

We are trying to compete with Geelong on who can collect maximum free agents for next to nothing trades. I think we'll be ahead if we get Draper and Allen. Hopefully Geelong don't pick up more this off-season and make us chase again. May I suggest including farming land in your remuneration...

www.bigfooty.com

If we didn't at least give him the opportunity and he goes elsewhere and lights it up, we'll be kicking ourselves.


My point is the gap can be addressed for less than what Draper will cost in salary cap. If the club feel they can manage it all then I'm happy with that, they've done a good job so far, though I'd rather not have expensive VFL players.


This season isn't over yet.

Just a wild guess from me, I wonder if Smith has expressed an interest to move on at the end of season. He isn't getting a clear run at it with us and if his manager sort of indicated he's open to a switch - it might also explain why we are proactively searching for another middle age ruck.

 

[Dalions]

Just a wild guess from me, I wonder if Smith has expressed an interest to move on at the end of season. He isn't getting a clear run at it with us and if his manager sort of indicated he's open to a switch - it might also explain why we are proactively searching for another middle age ruck.

There has been interest shown, so it is a very real possibility.
He is contracted though so we could try and keep him here for another year.
And next year he may get some opportunity, especially if he can stay on the park.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Just a wild guess from me, I wonder if Smith has expressed an interest to move on at the end of season. He isn't getting a clear run at it with us and if his manager sort of indicated he's open to a switch - it might also explain why we are proactively searching for another middle age ruck.

I'll be annoyed if that's the case since he's coming to his time of opportunity here, but if he really wants to go, then we should let him.

 

[morsie]

Saints will have 3-4 players(Rowell/De Koning/Aleer/Oliver) on 2 Million per season and then stock up the rest of their list with Retzlaff, Dalziell, Watts, Hammelmann, Bartlett, Bell, Pask, Uosis types... sure fire recipe for success.

Already missed Rowell.I think the Saints role in all this is to boost the offer from the existing club.Noone wants to go there.