Test Frank Worrell Trophy Third Test (D/N) West Indies v Australia July 12-16 0400hrs 13/7 @ Sabina Park, Jamaica

[The_Reaper]

Our most successful recent selection was Webster when the selectors were dragged kicking and screaming to the obvious of picking the best and in form allrounder in domestic cricket.

We do not have two test class openers.
We should select the two best domestic openers which puts us best positioned to winning the Ashes.

Whether or not these two best openers will be good enough for more than short term is irrelevant.

 

[Plugger35]

Once again Australia saved from another bad batting performance by the Windies managing to be worse, a lot worse in the end.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

If you want to get test cricket back to being competitive within all the cricket playing nations they need to take a look at the AFL. It's not going to happen, but Cricket boards should hand over broadcast rights to the ICC who then distribute proceeds unequally to encourage a competitive balance. At the moment, it's dwindling downwards to being extremely tiered between the have and have not nations - the accelaration of that seems inevitable.

That happened years ago when India, England and Australia became the collective major share holders of Test cricket. Not much point handing over to the ICC, India and the ICC are the same people.

 

[PhatBoy]

Happy to agree with you on everything but Holder haha. Even Jason Kreija got 8 in an innings once in India.

Holder did alright against some weak opposition during that period. By being not so strong, the Windies were forced to play more Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan etc more often in this time.

I’ll be honest I’ve never rated him very highly. His test bowling average of 88 v Australia, 99 v NZ, you mentioned India 38.3. Strong against Bangladesh 16 wickets at 8.9. Decent against Sri Lanka and Pakistan (averaged just over 20) but both been very weak over this period.

He’s highly overrated imo and WI need to move past him. And the bowling signs are there. Shamar, Alzarri and Seales were fantastic and hopefully have a big future for the Windies.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/cricketers/jason-holder-391485/bowling-batting-stats

He might not get to that point again I don’t know but at that stage he wasn’t just bashing minnows or something

He may have an average of 38 against india. But in that period he didn’t, and when you are taking not one but two bags of five against top orders of Rahane, Rahul, Pant, Pujara, Kohli and Jadeja you’re doing okay.
One of his five fers against Sri Lanka was against a strong top order of Chandimal, Nissanka, Karunaratne and De Silva, who all average 39 or higher.

The five against Pakistan included Younis Khan and Asad Shafiq.

And look it is selective, I make no secret of that, but none of his performances against Australia came in that window. It was pretty widely acknowledged by a lot of commentators at the time that the game ins Sharjah was where it ‘clicked’ for him - he had long been earmarked as a player who had all the tools to be a really good player but he’d only ever taken 3 wickets in an innings (twice) in 19 tests before that. Suddenly he came out and did it 19 times in 30 tests, and his career average came down from 46 to 26. He had the ball on a string.

They do have a good attack without him. I’m not advocating that he bumps one of them. I’m suggesting that he’s a better cricketer than Justin Greaves

 

[JackFlash]

Not going too well in tests but have two t20 world titles.

T20 is the big problem, it's ruining Test batsmen!

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Yeah I thought Starc was going to be a bit like a quicker Bracken, great at the short form but struggles to penetrate at Test level. Glad to have been proven wrong, you're right about him becoming way more consistent. It used to be when he was on look out otherwise he might get slapped, the stinkers have become more and more rare.

And you're right about Hazlewood, I'm sure they don't play him over Boland just for a laugh, it's a rare combo.

Yep then add Cummins in too there’s no freebies in this attack. It makes Lyon more dangerous as bats have to attack someone they ain’t going to attack those 3 easily

 

[sr36]

That happened years ago when India, England and Australia became the collective major share holders of Test cricket. Not much point handing over to the ICC, India and the ICC are the same people.

I don't think anyone is to blame.

It's just what happens in professional sport - the biggest and richest become the best which makes them bigger and richer and better again - unless there are competitive balance measures in place to stop it occurring. Most countries just don't have the money to keep their brightest young talent interested in Test Cricket when there is a much more lucrative option around.

If you don't bring in competitive balance measures, it'll just keep getting more lop-sided.

 

[sherb]

To some extent, this comes courtesy of having played against them quite a bit; you're gonna get repeat wickets against someone you play against a lot. But it's a commonly understood thing within international cricket that just coming to Australia and playing without a spinner means your quicks are gonna get tired. England's successful tour of Australia - the only successful Ashes tour that resulted in the away side's victory - was borne from two things: an inability for Australia to get Alastair Cook out, and them rotating their bowlers to give the quicks who needed it a rest. India just fell here because their centrepiece wasn't fit for the entire series and they couldn't reliably use Jadeja and Ashwin/Sundar to soak up deliveries.

Sorry, I'm trying to work out exactly what you mean by this.

Of course, it could be my lack of comprehension at play...................

 

[sr36]

Yeah I thought Starc was going to be a bit like a quicker Bracken, great at the short form but struggles to penetrate at Test level. Glad to have been proven wrong, you're right about him becoming way more consistent. It used to be when he was on look out otherwise he might get slapped, the stinkers have become more and more rare.

And you're right about Hazlewood, I'm sure they don't play him over Boland just for a laugh, it's a rare combo.

The cross seam delivery came around at the right time for him. It has taken his bowling to the next level and means he's still dangerous when the ball has stopped swinging and even more dangerous when it is. That and the increased control that comes from so much cricket means he's just continued to become a better bowler.

 

[the_interloper]

The cross seam delivery came around at the right time for him. It has taken his bowling to the next level and means he's still dangerous when the ball has stopped swinging. That and the increased control that comes from so much cricket means he's just continued to become a better bowler.

And clearly he's a bloke who looks after himself, I think all the quicks really do, I'm sure that has something to do with their relatively low injury rates. Even Hazlewood lost a bit of weight a year or two ago i reckon, he's a big bloke, that probably extends his career a bit.

 

[sr36]

Our most successful recent selection was Webster when the selectors were dragged kicking and screaming to the obvious of picking the best and in form allrounder in domestic cricket.

We do not have two test class openers.
We should select the two best domestic openers which puts us best positioned to winning the Ashes.

Whether or not these two best openers will be good enough for more than short term is irrelevant.

Yep. And forget ages. Even if picking with the future in mind, the age they play to these days, you don't need to pick the bloke in their early 20s in order to find a long term player.

 

[sr36]

He might not get to that point again I don’t know but at that stage he wasn’t just bashing minnows or something

He may have an average of 38 against india. But in that period he didn’t, and when you are taking not one but two bags of five against top orders of Rahane, Rahul, Pant, Pujara, Kohli and Jadeja you’re doing okay.
One of his five fers against Sri Lanka was against a strong top order of Chandimal, Nissanka, Karunaratne and De Silva, who all average 39 or higher.

The five against Pakistan included Younis Khan and Asad Shafiq.

And look it is selective, I make no secret of that, but none of his performances against Australia came in that window. It was pretty widely acknowledged by a lot of commentators at the time that the game ins Sharjah was where it ‘clicked’ for him - he had long been earmarked as a player who had all the tools to be a really good player but he’d only ever taken 3 wickets in an innings (twice) in 19 tests before that. Suddenly he came out and did it 19 times in 30 tests, and his career average came down from 46 to 26. He had the ball on a string.

They do have a good attack without him. I’m not advocating that he bumps one of them. I’m suggesting that he’s a better cricketer than Justin Greaves

It's a bit of a who knows. Like a lot of allrounders he was picked early due to showing signs in both skills but being a bit sub par in both skills initially. He was then beginning to show really good signs as a bowler and handy signs as a bat, but it was over too quickly for where he was heading to have been franked.

I'm biased by coming from an Aussie perspective and wanting the allrounder to be a top 6 bat who could also be a solid 5th bowler and i'm not sure if he could have become either that or a first choice seamer whose batting was a bonus. He would make WI better, but I find it hard to have a high rating of him when I don't think he was developing into a player that would have made the Aussie team.

 

[jannissary]

call me an "extremist" but i hope CA tells all the test contracted players to not seek playing T20 games moving forward. it's just hurting our batting

 

[ABAB]

Our bowlers continue to be great and mask that our batting has huge problems.

But there’s really no joy seeing WI capitulate like that, it’s just sad.

At least Green look composed this Test, Kontas and Khawaja as openers.....yikes.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's a bit of a who knows. Like a lot of allrounders he was picked early due to showing signs in both skills but being a bit sub par in both skills initially. He was then beginning to show really good signs as a bowler and handy signs as a bat, but it was over too quickly for where he was heading to have been franked.

I'm biased by coming from an Aussie perspective and wanting the allrounder to be a top 6 bat who could also be a solid 5th bowler and i'm not sure if he could have become either that or a first choice seamer whose batting was a bonus. He would make WI better, but I find it hard to have a high rating of him when I don't think he was developing into a player that would have made the Aussie team.

Australia has always had a full attack, that’s why, so he would have had to play as a batsman, more or less.

He would have been a better player than marsh. For a while there he was a genuine bowler rather than just an option. Those bags of 5 were taken across basically all bowling scenarios from being Kemar Roach’s new ball partner, to bowling first change behind Gabriel and Joseph both bowling mid 140s (150 in Gabriel’s case) or the fourth seamer behind all three in some cases as well as with other less notable players like Keemo Paul and Miguel Cummins.

Australia’s idea of an all rounder has always been more aligned with being a batsman who can bowl than anything else I think so he would miss out on that score which is fair enough

 

[sr36]

Australia has always had a full attack, that’s why, so he would have had to play as a batsman, more or less.

He would have been a better player than marsh. For a while there he was a genuine bowler rather than just an option. Those bags of 5 were taken across basically all bowling scenarios from being Kemar Roach’s new ball partner, to bowling first change behind Gabriel and Joseph both bowling mid 140s (150 in Gabriel’s case) or the fourth seamer behind all three in some cases as well as with other less notable players like Keemo Paul and Miguel Cummins.

Australia’s idea of an all rounder has always been more aligned with being a batsman who can bowl than anything else I think so he would miss out on that score which is fair enough

The Aussie context has always been a search for a top 6 batsman who can keep it tight with the ball.

But I do think changes to test match cricket open things up for a bowling allrounder. I think the ideal team in some recent SENA condiitons would have a pair of allrounders. Eg in recent Aussie test conditions, I think you'd want Jadeja as your spin option - due to his batting - as the spinner just isn't going to be as big a threat as your seamers - just a change up option and ideally your 4th seamer as a bowling allrounder - so you can keep the threat on the batsman with 4 blokes who can seriously bowl seam.

 

[CrowBloke]

What can you say about Starc's record-equalling first over today?

The only thing you can say is WOOOWW ....

 

[PhatBoy]

The Aussie context has always been a search for a top 6 batsman who can keep it tight with the ball.

But I do think changes to test match cricket open things up for a bowling allrounder. I think the ideal team in recent SENA would have a pair of allrounders. Eg in recent Aussie test conditions, I think you'd want Jadeja as your spin option - due to his batting - as the spinner just isn't going to be as big a threat as your seamers - just a change up option and ideally your 4th seamer as a bowling allrounder - so you can keep the threat on the batsman.

Totally agree. That’s why I would like him, or if push came to absolute shove Greaves who I must admit bowled better than I thought he would, would be a handy option, in a squad, for certain conditions.

If they INSIST in picking Roston Chase then he can bowl some spin albeit he’s ordinary.

England should be taking this approach given that Atkinson and Carse are both very capable batsmen and Root and Bethel both bowl some spin. NZ were they to tour here should probably be the same with Phillips too as their spin option. You’re just on a hiding to nothing bringing a spinner to Australia at the moment. Though that might start to change a bit more as the local batting gets a bit weaker

 

[PhatBoy]

What can you say about Starc's record-equalling first over today?

The only thing you can say is WOOOWW ....

Wasn’t the word I was using

 

[kickazz]

call me an "extremist" but i hope CA tells all the test contracted players to not seek playing T20 games moving forward. it's just hurting our batting

T20 has hurt cricket.

It started out so good.

Now it's shit, it's basically batter/bowler trying to guess what the other will do like a game of paper rock scissors.

 

[CrowBloke]

Poor bastard Konstas --- doesn't bowl, batted poorly and dropped two catchable balls at slip that could have handed Starc his sixth wicket, before some sloppy ground fielding allowed a costly single.

"Costly" because it let the Windies go from 26 to 27, dodging the equal-lowest score in Test history.

 

[sr36]

Totally agree. That’s why I would like him, or if push came to absolute shove Greaves who I must admit bowled better than I thought he would, would be a handy option, in a squad, for certain conditions.

If they INSIST in picking Roston Chase then he can bowl some spin albeit he’s ordinary.

England should be taking this approach given that Atkinson and Carse are both very capable batsmen and Root and Bethel both bowl some spin. NZ were they to tour here should probably be the same with Phillips too as their spin option. You’re just on a hiding to nothing bringing a spinner to Australia at the moment. Though that might start to change a bit more as the local batting gets a bit weaker

I think they'd be mad to play a spinner - Root is all they'll need on that front - and if Wood isn't injured, it'll mean they can use him really sparingly to deliver short spells of terror with 4 other seamers spreading the load. With the injury history of their seamers, having 5 of them would be fantastic for that attack - in a 5 match test series.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think they'd be mad to play a spinner - Root is all they'll need on that front - and if Wood isn't injured, it'll mean they can use him really sparingly to deliver short spells of terror with 4 other seamers spreading the load. With the injury history of their seamers, having 5 of them would be fantastic for that attack - in a 5 match test series.

100 per cent and stokes actually looks a little bit ominous. Not ‘run through anyone and take 6-7 wickets’ ominous because he’s not and never really has been that sort of bowler but he’s at his most impactful when they are just churning through bowlers at the other end and ramping up a bit of pressure and he is steaming in at about 140 and just getting his 2-3 big wickets for the innings and somehow they seem to always be the most important ones. He is still missing something in the his batting (seems almost like he’s trying TOO hard) but his bowling was excellent this match and it visibly made a difference to them. Compare that to when they have the likes of Tongue and Potts and Stokes is bowling just 6-7 overs an innings of 127kph filth and it’s poles apart

 

[CrowBloke]

I dropped three catches one day, worst days cricket ever. Of course playing F grade comes with a bit less scrutiny with what Konstas has to put up with, just a bit.

Sorry to do this, but it's hardly bragging.

Not having played for about 5 years, in my first C-Grade game with a new Club:
--- I didn't get a bowl (although picked as a bowler; the Captain ignored me, the newbie)
--- made a duck off 3 balls
--- dropped 4 catches
Count them, FOUR , all in slips off one bowler, a 40yo Club hero who threatened to kill me (nice!) and had to be held back after I dropped the 4th one.

Immediate nickname, Nacker (NACA, Not A Cricketer's arseh*le).
Strangely, when I was selected again; the Club hero quit, in protest/disgust.
In his absence, I took 6-for and was off and running.

(Edit: correction ... on a long drive I've had time to think ... I took 2-for in my second game.
The 6/43 was first B-Grade game after illness, the next year. Apologies)

 

[Guardian Hawk]

4-11 pretty much pick themselves, Green will hopefully shore up first drop but Konstas has to go.

Boland's test average is 17 and his strike rate is 38, he's still not a first choice quick, hard to imagine.

For all the criticism of the Green selection, he actually ended up with the 3rd most runs this series (out of all 25 players). He ended up well ahead of Webster in 4th and only 3 runs behind Carey in 2nd.

Boland is a very unlucky cricketer in that he would be one of the first picked in basically any other side in the world.