Test Proposal to split test cricket into two divisions

[Jack Mundy]

What a load of shit.

For starters, his Gavaskar comparison is utterly stupid. Gavaskar had no fewer than 135 specialist batsmen - that’s if you’re only counting top 5 from each side - pushing for a spot in the Indian team from their first class competition.
Pretty sure they would have filled his spot when he wasn’t as good as he previously was.

Kimber talks like there is this plethora of sides waiting for their chance to be gun test sides and get into the mix and vie for success. There isn’t. It’s a commonwealth sport and nothing will change that anytime soon. Afghanistan is the only major exception to this unless you were to consider the Dutch. And the other nations aren’t giving them a look in anyway. Australia won’t play them as it is.

It’s not soccer or basketball where there are 20+ capable teams who are all good enough to beat each other on a given day (USA basketball excluded) and it’s not going to be. His ‘end game’ is centuries away.

‘But ITS A PROFESSIONAL SPORT!!’ so what? So is AFL. It doesn’t play against anyone.
So is rugby league. It has a World Cup that’s less important than an interstate competition.
it’s a professional international sport, not a league. All the countries have their leagues based on tables and prize money.

As such it’s something that is about more than just trying to get to the top of a league or winning prize money.

They have tournaments in all three formats anyway.
What happens when a side gets locked into a tier for 2-3 years and their best player suffers an injury or retires to chase money?
What happens if SA are in that tier and Temba Bavuma does his back and Aidan Markram can’t produce these flashes of brilliance that he peels off every 7-8 tests and SA basically start playing like the West Indies have done this past three weeks?

Hell what would have happened if Travis Head was injured this series or the West Indies took their catches in the first test and were up 1-0 and people were forced to confront the idea that they’d won their last two matches against Australia?

..yeah that's how promotion and relegation works. Test cricket is closed shop. Only certain nations are invited and then people say nobody other nation is interested. Create pathway for promotion and see who progresses.

 

[PhatBoy]

..yeah that's how promotion and relegation works. Test cricket is closed shop. Only certain nations are invited and then people say nobody other nation is interested. Create pathway for promotion and see who progresses.

Tremendous insight

 

[Jack Mundy]

This seems reactionary rather than actually moving to solve the issue.

Yes they were completely outclassed in this series, but they aren’t the first nor will they be the last.

Let’s not forget or ignore that they beat us in a test last year on home soil, and have since split series’ with Bangladesh and Pakistan, whilst also pushing South Africa.

Which test nations are “emerging” and deserve to play against Australia instead?

After 30 years of poor performance is not reactionary. Not come to being among the top nations. Won two tests against Australia this century I think?! They've been rubbish for too long.

 

[PhatBoy]

After 30 years of poor performance is not reactionary. Not come to being among the top nations. Won two tests against Australia this century I think?! They've been rubbish for too long.

Australia’s won 1 series in India in nearly 60 years and they’re over there every other year these days. Well done.

And it’s not like they don’t get practice against spin or in Asia; there’s 4 Asian nations to practice against. They’ve got Lyon in their side. They had Warne or MacGill or Lyon there for the last 33 years.

 

[Jack Mundy]

Tremendous insight

How does a nation get to play tests?! How bad does a nation have to be before they get a spell?! System is broken.

 

[Jack Mundy]

Australia’s won 1 series in India in nearly 60 years. Well done.

Drop the denial. India and Australia exchange the border Gavaskar trophy numerous times. When's the last time west indies beat Australia in a series?! Simple fact you're avoiding is the west indies have been poor for 3 decades.

 

[PhatBoy]

How does a nation get to play tests?! How bad does a nation have to be before they get a spell?! System is broken.

Name me a side that would be likely to be worthy of it.

Tell me why Australia doesn’t play the teams that are there already.

At least the West Indies plays Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Afghanistan. Hasn’t played Ireland yet but we probably would. Australia has played a combined 2 tests against those sides in 20 years.

 

[Jack Mundy]

Name me a side that would be likely to be worthy of it.

Tell me why Australia doesn’t play the teams that are there already.

At least the West Indies plays Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and Afghanistan. Hasn’t played Ireland yet but we probably would. Australia has played a combined 2 tests against those sides in 20 years.

Who do I think should compete at the FIFA world cup?! Doesn't matter because teams play for place. Fairest way. Every nation has a soccer team. Cricket doesn't even allow nations to do that!!

 

[PhatBoy]

Drop the denial. India and Australia exchange the border Gavaskar trophy numerous times. When's the last time west indies beat Australia in a series?! Simple fact you're avoiding is the west indies have been poor for 3 decades.

So what. You’re using the argument that the West Indies can’t beat Australia. Australia has been the best overall performed team this century.

Yet they’ve won one series in India since Jimi Hendrix played the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock despite all the chances to remedy that. How come? They haven’t won in England for a quarter of a century. They drew in Bangladesh the one time they did go there. West Indies didn’t. We won our last four tests there. Why?
The current world test champions got absolutely flattened when they came to Australia a couple of years ago. West Indies didn’t. We drew 1-1 here. England lost when they went to Pakistan and faced spinning wickets last year. West Indies didn’t. We drew 1-1 earlier this year.

Why?

 

[PhatBoy]

Who do I think should compete at the FIFA world cup?! Doesn't matter because teams play for place. Fairest way. Every nation has a soccer team. Cricket doesn't even allow nations to do that!!

So. Why would it. When every nation gets a four day competition or a first class structure, have at it.

 

[Jack Mundy]

So what. You’re using the argument that the West Indies can’t beat Australia. Australia has been the best overall performed team this century.

Yet they’ve won one series in India since Jimi Hendrix played the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock despite all the chances to remedy that. How come? They haven’t won in England for a quarter of a century. They drew in Bangladesh the one time they did go there. West Indies didn’t. We won our last four tests there. Why?
The current world test champions got absolutely flattened when they came to Australia a couple of years ago. West Indies didn’t. We drew 1-1 here. England lost when they went to Pakistan and faced spinning wickets last year. West Indies didn’t. We drew 1-1 earlier this year.

Why?

Yet you're afraid of promotion and relegation because you know they're rubbish lol

 

[Jack Mundy]

So. Why would it. When every nation gets a four day competition or a first class structure, have at it.

Because the system was created when British empire was in full flight and hasn't evolved with the times.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yet you're afraid of promotion and relegation because you know they're rubbish lol

Yes it’s amazing how someone who supports a team doesn’t want to see their team not be able to play.

You’d think supporters of that team would love it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Because the system was created when British empire was in full flight and hasn't evolved with the times.

Afghanistan who have a first class system isn’t part of the British empire.

 

[Jack Mundy]

Yes it’s amazing how someone who supports a team doesn’t want to see their team not be able to play.

You’d think supporters of that team would love it.

What's west indies fans going to say?! "Give us another 30 years and we'll come good!" Lol

 

[Jack Mundy]

Afghanistan who have a first class system isn’t part of the British empire.

I think Ireland too. Cricket's getting big in USA..

 

[PhatBoy]

What's west indies fans going to say?! "Give us another 30 years and we'll come good!" Lol

No. They’ll probably say ‘I like watching my team play, look at the history of test cricket and the fact that at any given time there are always teams that are at the top, there are always teams that are at the bottom, and as long as the teams at the bottom are still winning or competing a reasonable percentage of the time, it shouldn’t really make a difference how long they are there for, because we are not playing in the AFL and these are not franchises or businesses, and for 150 years that has been the case and the game has lived. If it lives with more teams, so be it. If it lives with tournaments within the game, so be it. But don’t deny teams the chance to play one another because of an arbitrary criteria made up on the spot determined by what someone in a room considers to be appropriate.’

England has won as many series in India as they have in the Caribbean in the last 30 years. And do you know who was in the side when they DID win? Lara, Hooper, Sarwan, Chanderpaul, Gayle etc.

Cricket has no rhyme or reason to it.

Australia, South Africa, England, even some of the Sri Lankan sides containing Murali and the masters of spin like Sanga and Jayawardene took some mighty sides to India without getting a win.

New Zealand stroll over there without Kane Williamson and win 3-0.

Under what is being proposed that probably doesn’t happen depending on where and when.

there isn’t a competition in the world that I’m aware of that has every team on an even amount of points or wins or whatever.

and outside of the WTC, test cricket isn’t even a competition. It’s a sequence of smaller competitions, one team against another one. These competitions go for a few days at a time, then for a series at a time. That’s all they are. Why does it need to be genericised like every other sport

 

[PhatBoy]

I think Ireland too. Cricket's getting big in USA..

Ireland is part of the commonwealth. Afghanistan isn’t. Ireland has no first class competition. It used to but hasn’t been held since 2019.

 

[Jeremias]

After 30 years of poor performance is not reactionary. Not come to being among the top nations. Won two tests against Australia this century I think?! They've been rubbish for too long.

They’ve been rubbish for a long time. The solution isn’t to banish them to a division where they’ll be killed off completely.

Who do I think should compete at the FIFA world cup?! Doesn't matter because teams play for place. Fairest way. Every nation has a soccer team. Cricket doesn't even allow nations to do that!!

Countries play for a place at the cricket World Cup too.

Why should England have to play Andorra, Latvia and Albania on the way to the 2026 World Cup?

Yet you're afraid of promotion and relegation because you know they're rubbish lol

Is anyone actually arguing that they’re not rubbish?

I think everyone can see they’re a really poor test cricket nation, the discussion has gone well beyond that point.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Ireland is part of the commonwealth. Afghanistan isn’t. Ireland has no first class competition. It used to but hasn’t been held since 2019.

No, at least not the Republic of Ireland since 1949.

The North is of course completely different, and being effectively an all-Ireland team I guess part of the cricketing nation of Ireland (the part that is not the nation of Ireland) is part of the Commonwealth.

 

[PhatBoy]

No, at least not the Republic of Ireland since 1949.

The North is of course completely different, and being effectively an all-Ireland team I guess part of the cricketing nation of Ireland (the part that is not the nation of Ireland) is part of the Commonwealth.

Well there you go. I knew Ireland weren’t part of the empire but had it in my head they were part of the games for some reason (on reflection I don’t know why they would be doing so as it wouldn’t make sense for them to - particularly as it was literally called the Empire Games)

Edit: and yes for the purposes of their cricket side both sides of the divide play together but nonetheless you’re right

 

[Gough]

Had a chat with a loyalist in the beer queue at the rugby on Saturday, he reckoned Brexit had done more harm to their cause than anything.

 

[cricketnut14]

how could 2 divisions look ?

you guys can choose who belongs in what division - for the sake of this exercise i've put pakistan in div 2 , cause they can't sort their shit out with india.

div 1 - (7 teams) australia, england, india, south africa, new zealand, sri lanka, west indies
div 2 - (5 teams) pakistan, bangladesh, zimbabwe, afghanistan, ireland

ALL series in division 1 & 2 are 3 test series
Aust/Ind/Eng are still 5 test series

Over the 2 year period - everyone still plays 3 home and away series against everyone in their division
22 tests - Aust, India, Eng
18 tests - SA, NZ, SL, WI

12 tests - Pak, Bang, Zim, Afg, Ire - 2 home and 2 away series, playing everyone in their division..
Maybe these could also be 4 day tests with extra overs bowled and a springboard for any trial rule changes etc.

The division 2 sides could also play 2 x 2 test series during the cycle, against a division 1 team for further exposure outside the WTC. This would give these div 2 teams 16 tests over 2 years.

that would mean SA, NZ, SL, WI playing an extra 2 x 2 test series (1 home and 1 away) against div 2 , giving them 22 tests over 2 years.

Aust and Eng could play 1 x 2 test series against div 2 - giving them 24 tests in 2 years
This would leave India with no extra cricket (i left them out only because all the div 2 teams would have played equal amount of games) and they too invested in IPL etc, however if they wanted to add a series they could.

over a 2 years period you have Aust playing 24, Eng 24, India 22, SA/NZ/SL/WI 22, Pak/Bang/Zim/Afg/Ire 16.

Again, its not perfect and I'm sure Pakistan fans wouldn't be happy with the above example.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Well there you go. I knew Ireland weren’t part of the empire but had it in my head they were part of the games for some reason (on reflection I don’t know why they would be doing so as it wouldn’t make sense for them to - particularly as it was literally called the Empire Games)

Edit: and yes for the purposes of their cricket side both sides of the divide play together but nonetheless you’re right

Maybe because the UK nations compete separately in CG and Northern Ireland send athletes?

 

[Jack Mundy]

how could 2 divisions look ?

you guys can choose who belongs in what division - for the sake of this exercise i've put pakistan in div 2 , cause they can't sort their shit out with india.

div 1 - (7 teams) australia, england, india, south africa, new zealand, sri lanka, west indies
div 2 - (5 teams) pakistan, bangladesh, zimbabwe, afghanistan, ireland

ALL series in division 1 & 2 are 3 test series
Aust/Ind/Eng are still 5 test series

Over the 2 year period - everyone still plays 3 home and away series against everyone in their division
22 tests - Aust, India, Eng
18 tests - SA, NZ, SL, WI

12 tests - Pak, Bang, Zim, Afg, Ire - 2 home and 2 away series, playing everyone in their division..
Maybe these could also be 4 day tests with extra overs bowled and a springboard for any trial rule changes etc.

The division 2 sides could also play 2 x 2 test series during the cycle, against a division 1 team for further exposure outside the WTC. This would give these div 2 teams 16 tests over 2 years.

that would mean SA, NZ, SL, WI playing an extra 2 x 2 test series (1 home and 1 away) against div 2 , giving them 22 tests over 2 years.

Aust and Eng could play 1 x 2 test series against div 2 - giving them 24 tests in 2 years
This would leave India with no extra cricket (i left them out only because all the div 2 teams would have played equal amount of games) and they too invested in IPL etc, however if they wanted to add a series they could.

over a 2 years period you have Aust playing 24, Eng 24, India 22, SA/NZ/SL/WI 22, Pak/Bang/Zim/Afg/Ire 16.

Again, its not perfect and I'm sure Pakistan fans wouldn't be happy with the above example.

Point of promotion and relegation is to grow sport. Add two associate nations to second group. Beneath this would be another group possibly just a tournament like the old ICC trophy where teams qualify through regions. Winner moves up, bottom teams from 1 & 2 move down.