List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[phantom13]

Lyon and teammates were apparently shocked when they heard he was going as he told everyone up to last minute he was staying.

This still seems strange to me given we apparently floated the idea of losing him for the compo pick at the end of 2023.

Well likely never know but I think we ****ed the way we handled Battle (and he probably contributed to it as well).

 

[ThomasR]

This has come to my mind with no logic applied. Do you reckon the club keeps on Brodie Kemp, even with Leek Aleer looking a likely acquisition. Kemp's seemingly out of contract this year and has been injured all year. Maybe if he's super cheap?

I like him but coming off an achilles, buyer beware

 

[Thirsty_NeedBeer]

Lyon and teammates were apparently shocked when they heard he was going as he told everyone up to last minute he was staying.

Wasn’t it via text as well? His missus probably typed it out, spell checked and sent it for him too.

 

[gringo2011]

The irony being that if we did exactly this from 2019-20 (pushing out the goalposts and extending a rebuild) we may not be in the position we are in now and heading towards the pointier end of a list rebuild.

I think this is the crux of the issue and managing expectations, and we inevitably end taking on a sugar hit as opposed to the longer term vision of sustained success.

We just don’t have the list or talent to genuinely compete on a sustained basis, or make a flag tilt, and don’t recall the club ever formally telling anyone it was a “soft rebuild, so like it or not we need to develop the core of our list which doesn’t resolve itself in 2-3 years.

We stuffed up drafting under Trout. Lethers came in and pretty much bypassed the draft all together. We just kept doing everything we could to hide from the last lot of mistakes to buy time.

We have done a huge list readjustment. The only way from here is to either start building to go forward or cut harder and go back to a sustained bottom up rebuild.

All the gaslighting *&^%# that harassed me are now champions of a bottom out now we have already done the bulk of the build.

 

[stavro#4]

This still seems strange to me given we apparently floated the idea of losing him for the compo pick at the end of 2023.

Well likely never know but I think we ****ed the way we handled Battle (and he probably contributed to it as well).

Our list managers thought he was gone.

Ross was having regular catch ups with Battle, who was giving the impression he was committed and staying. Ross even approached him about what we were hearing about how close he was to the hawks and why he hadn’t signed if that wasn’t the case.

Battle assured him that wasn’t true.

Rest is as everyone else knows it.

 

[gringo2011]

I really think we need to target another key forward. Not necessarily a walk up starter but a proven state league guy or a veteran like Hawthorne and north have done with Gunston and Darling. Just a decent fill in for King who also offers experience and coaching. I think that is far more valuable than a break glass ruckmen that we have carried for years now.

I guess the question is, who fits the criteria and is gettable?

Hudson Garoni should have been given a go by now but GWS have 2 really good KPF options stuck behind their stars.

Max Gruzewski is a like a Barry hall type of lead up but shorter solid KPF at 192 cm.

And then Wade Derksen who is playing as a KPB this year but lead their goal kicking as a KPF last year. He's 197 and a big unit. Probably Shannon Neil from Geelong like.

 

[Mav3rick]

The equation to success is pretty simple.
Have as many of your best players aged between 23-28 as possible.

Consider that, and there’s no surprises with where we’re at.

That’s not how Geelong and Collingwood have done it. Even Brisbane last year were old

 

[gringo2011]

You stated every year, another throw the toys out of the cot moment by you.

Sorry which idiot are you again?

 

[phantom13]

Our list managers thought he was gone.

Ross was having regular catch ups with Battle, who was giving the impression he was committed and staying. Ross even approached him about what we were hearing about how close he was to the hawks and why he hadn’t signed if that wasn’t the case.

Battle assured him that wasn’t true.

Rest is as everyone else knows it.

Reckon that says more about Ross and his relationship to Battle than anything else personally but weve done that dance.

 

[phantom13]

Hudson Garoni should have been given a go by now but GWS have 2 really good KPF options stuck behind their stars.

Max Gruzewski is a like a Barry hall type of lead up but shorter solid KPF at 192 cm.

And then Wade Derksen who is playing as a KPB this year but lead their goal kicking as a KPF last year. He's 197 and a big unit. Probably Shannon Neil from Geelong like.

Wade ****ing Derksen... More made up names.

 

[gringo2011]

Quite true. Not a huge fan of the suggested trades, though I accept that our current takent ID is better than previously and as such will give benefit of doubt. Marshall clearly needs replacing, but surely we could have got by with Dodson and Heath plus a cheaper mid age ruck. I'd rather us push games into Barrat and Tauru than spend big on Aleer. But I do accept that both players have the potential to be absolute guns for the club and draw supporters to games and out of contract oppo players to SOS. If TDK is playing like he did in the first half of the year and Aleer is leaping and marking like a cross between Jason Holmes and Jeremy Howe than the LM crew should get all the plaudits.

I would have liked us to push harder for Noah Anderson back when his contract was up, or Rowell this year, but no means no I guess. I guess we're just going to have to do it the hard way and develop our own stars and cross our fingers that one/some/all of Phillipou, Wilson, Travaglia, Boxshall Garcia, Windhager, and Wanganeen Milera plus whoever we draft this year will become elite midfielders.

What worries me is our development and leadership. We haven't been good at developing players for the last 20 years and leadership has eroded (not specifically the captaincy) since Lyon's first stint. Clearly it's better than it was under our last 2 coaches, and I can see a lot of empowerment for the young group but I've got PTSD from the failures to develop so many of the promising Saints "stars" of the last 12 years that im worried that Pou, Tauru, Hall, Owens etc will eventually get infected with the same Saints virus those that came before them suffered. Nas is the closest we've got to a true break out star - if he stays. King, Higgins, Wilkie and Sinclair are the next closest in the older group but there's an asterisk next to each one. If we keep Nas and a few of the others explode in the same way, I legitimately believe we'll be one of the most exciting teams in the comp to watch and all the hard work the team is going through currently will be what helped us get there.

I think 2024 and 2025 are the years we had to have but will be worth nothing if Ross & co can't get them to take the next step.

I believe, but I've been fooled before. I still believe for the moment.

Anyone can look around and see all the promising young talent on other lists. It's not a science. We just threw offers at them that they rejected because we haven't proven to be on any kind of upward trajectory yet.


Anderson wanted in. We told him to piss off because we wanted Ben King and needed to keep our money for that.

We are developing, drafting and managing players better than ever but we have thrown the balance slightly out by cutting. Older players are the glue that keeps the stability in the side and allows kids to play without as much pressure on them. If all of our players had stayed fit we probably could have covered it.

We need leadership more than development. We don't have a lot of alpha personality types still. Most of the kids are too young to really stand up and take the reins yet and the old guys are all a bit bete.

Exciting is winning games regularly. 4 years of a soft rebuild around the core that they inherited should be competitive enough to sit mid table. If he can't get players fit and on the field he doesn't get to stay bottom 4 for ever and needs to get pushed. Another 10 years of rebuild is commercially untenable.

 

[_Maximus_12]

That’s not how Geelong and Collingwood have done it. Even Brisbane last year were old

Geelong were largely the exception, not the rule… but there’s a fair portion of both Brisbane and Collingwoods best who fit the bill.

2024 Brisbane Lions:
Ah Chee, McCluggage, Berry, Dunkley, Rayner, Hipwood, Andrews, Starcevich and Bailey were all in the 23-28 old bracket on grand final day.

2023 Collingwood:
Darcy Moore, Maynard, Quaynor, Bobby Hill, McCreery, De Goey, Josh Daicos, Darcy Cameron

 

[Klaatu]

Sorry which idiot are you again?

Touch touch

 

[SaintOfLondon]

Anyone can look around and see all the promising young talent on other lists. It's not a science. We just threw offers at them that they rejected because we haven't proven to be on any kind of upward trajectory yet.


Anderson wanted in. We told him to piss off because we wanted Ben King and needed to keep our money for that.

We are developing, drafting and managing players better than ever but we have thrown the balance slightly out by cutting. Older players are the glue that keeps the stability in the side and allows kids to play without as much pressure on them. If all of our players had stayed fit we probably could have covered it.

We need leadership more than development. We don't have a lot of alpha personality types still. Most of the kids are too young to really stand up and take the reins yet and the old guys are all a bit bete.

Exciting is winning games regularly. 4 years of a soft rebuild around the core that they inherited should be competitive enough to sit mid table. If he can't get players fit and on the field he doesn't get to stay bottom 4 for ever and needs to get pushed. Another 10 years of rebuild is commercially untenable.

For myself you can add to that also mentally untenable

 

[PaythePerryman]

Max Gruzewski is a like a Barry hall type of lead up but shorter solid KPF at 192 cm.

Hahahaha what? He's about half the width and weight. He's got good hands though and a solid kick.
Derksen has been linked to Melbourne for as long as we've had him.
Leeks gonna be a great pickup

 

[SaintOfLondon]

Very excited for Leek and potential of the irish lad.

 

[PaythePerryman]

Very excited for Leek and potential of the irish lad.

Callum Brown? Hadn't heard he was on the move. Hopefully. Suuuuper handy

 

[dudeintheswamp]

Bye this weekend for Sandy and then four games left. Anyone know if Armstrong might be up for a game before the end of the season?

 

[BrutThough]

Callum Brown? Hadn't heard he was on the move. Hopefully. Suuuuper handy

Eamon Armstrong. He's a Cat B rookie on our list that arrived from Ireland last week.

 

[gringo2011]

Dumbest media take of the week (hard to do given the amount of dumb takes).

“He’s weighing up a two-year $800,000 offer in total up against a four-year $3 million deal from St Kilda,” Morris added.

“That’s a $2.2 million difference across the life of the deal.”

$400K a year average (GWS) v $750K a year average (StK). Over a 2 year period, being the term of the GWS offer, it is a difference of $700K. In itself, that is a big difference and blows the GWS offer out of the water, but the bobblehead is being is usually dramatic self by throwing out the $2.2M number, making us sound like Bill Gates.

Pretty sure that they mean his choice is stay with mates at GWS and not move versus set himself up long term with money and security. It's not as straight forward as more cash. He may even back himself to perform even better after 2 years and demand more money.

It's still big decision moving clubs. You build a support network, mates, have a house usually with a few guys you get to know really well. Money makes a massive difference but it's not a no brainer for a lot of players. Like all big life decisions it has negatives and positives. Players invest a lot into their clubs and you'd also feel like moving on you might miss out if they are close.

It's the reason that a lot of players have chosen not to chase our carrot.

 

[Joffaboy]

Well that's delusional. Tauru looks insanely promising but right now our defence has gone from rock solid to an absolute liability. Right now we have a kid who will still be playing in 10 years hopefully for an established pillar of the back line. It either ends up genius or reckless depending on how far Tauru goes. Right now it looks like a long term win but short term pain.

Battle should have been able to be covered even in the short term. Probably a better investment than a VFL back up ruck. Could have taken Luke Parks or another VFL marking machine instead. Then we would have cover for both.

Losing Battle and Howard ( and backup Cordy) and having a great prospect in Tauru really put paid to the best line we had in the team in 2024.
I am not a huge fan of Caminiti and even less so in defence although a season down back can fast track his development.
Not getting Kemp was a mistake. We complain about not getting players but then there are three who wanted to come that we bailed on, those being Caldwell, Xerri ( might be a superstar) and Kemp. All would have made the team better in my opinion.
Would need to look who we got for those picks the other clubs wanted, I think we at least drafted Barrat with the Kemp pick. Barrat looks a prospect for future not 2025.
You are correct, we didn't cover Battle with experience, hoping, McLennon or O'Connell would do it. I found that worrisome during trade time and was borne out when we lost any height down back.
Tauru looks terrific, but is learning. Twice he has cost us goals in two tight games from direct turnovers. I don't mind, you expect that from kids learning and his upside is tremendous, but in my view the most serious mistake the club made was not covering Battle with experience.

Would Kemp have been the answer? Probably not, but it would have freed Hammer to go forward where our other glaring deficiency lay, not key forward.

Basically lost three key forwards for the year, Membrey who left, Caminiti to defence, King to rehab. Now Membrey and Caminiti aren't tall key forwards, however Skunk is very experienced, and Caminiti is young and athletic, would have stretched the opposition defence much more.
We saw a bit of height in Heath keeping the ball in play by at least contesting and not giving the defence simple intercept marks.
Really our woes stemmed from not covering Battle. Kemp did a knee, but may not if he had come to us.

 

[gringo2011]

If next year goes pear shaped then I have no doubt the succession plan will be enacted.

Hope so. Hope we look around at others though too. Having a guy that takes the reins from a bottom 4 coach that has learned the same system might not be enough to change things up. Getting a coach out of a really strong winning system is probably a safer bet. It might end up that Boris is the best candidate but you'd want a process to make sure.

 

[gringo2011]

Did he remind them they suffer a far greater embarrassment, “working” for the ABC

Too soy-boy for you boss?

 

[gringo2011]

Carroll is a break glass in emergency mid that had cost us nothing but a list spot.

Dow is a vastly better than Jam Tins Dunstan. He can actually execute a basic handball without turning it over. He’s just can’t get on the park.

Hill a club leader who deserved an extra 3 years on much reduced $.

Max signed the extension when he was fully fit & considered one of most important players to build around.

Collard is a super talented kid. 3 years gives him time & us the opportunity to get something in return if he packs it in.

Dow has always had issues around disposal. He's pretty much like for like. Maybe a bit quicker. Carroll is outside mid cover with some scope for improvement. So far his injury run has held him back but looks okay. Real free hit stuff.

Hill looks a long way from 3 year deals. Probably on year by years from here. Max hasn't been resilient since we got him so not true. Boyd looks the only real misstep. Doesn't seem to have made a difference and probably should have backed Heath as a ruck back up.

 

[StCicatriz]

You answered my question with a question. Obviously you can't answer the question.
Will ask again, what trades have we done that have been difficult?
I'll help, the Carlisle trade was difficult. Arguments it was Essendon but that was a difficult.
I'll help you even more, the multitude of players we have missed out on. How many were because the managers found us difficult to work with? Don't know could be a factor, or maybe just one of many reasons.
You see I don't necessarily think the report is untrue, it may be, but to blithely accept it as fact and then use it to pot the club, is a symptom of confirmation bias, grab anything percieved as negative towards the club to bemoan how bad the club is.
And to think you would trigger me, lol, sweetie, you ain't that important in my life, or even on this forum.
Love you gorgeous

whats it got to do with the topic of conversation though. there's an article that states we are difficult to deal with and has cited the source as player managers. like it or not, it's in print. its more credible that anything that has been thrown up to counter the claim.

someone has chimed in and stated we were easy to deal with in the past. i asked for a source for that. no one has provided any evidence to suggest we have been easy to deal with. i'd love it if someone could. then you've come in, triggered, demanding evidence as to what trades were difficult.

you're asking the wrong person. you'd need to ask the player managers in question as to why we are difficult. i'm not a player manager.

can you provide an article that's stated we are easy to deal with?

because your counter argument to this whole article, seems to be that you're unhappy the club has been criticised, you're now upset about it, and now you want to argue that everythings ok but you don't want to actually provide anything to counter the articles claim. i havent seen one quote from one player manager or a journalist repeating the opinion of player managers that we are ok to work with.

never once said i triggered you. i stated the idea the club has been criticised has triggered you. its not the first time this has happened and it wont be the last. this week you were all doom and gloom, TDK was a massive bust, everythings falling down, the AFL are out to get us. fast forward to yesterday and now suddenly you're back to where the club can do no wrong and we are all ok. its very up and down.

as for the use of the word sweetie quality content.